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On July 11 2011 17:15 BearChocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:49 EntertainMe wrote:I translated this in NASL Grand Finals Day 3 thread, but I think it's more appropriate here. Someone from playxp wrote a clever analysis of GSL Finals failure compare to NASL Finals: "In GSL, after the quarter-finals, the time given to prepare is just too much. With so much time to prepare, players come out with perfectly prepared build/timings. However, when such build/timing fails, because it's just too perfectly planned out, we do not get a long intense game but rather one landslide victory. Either win game 1 and win it all, or fail game 1 and lose it all. Unlike the Finals we saw today(more skilled player coming on top), GSL Finals is more of Build Order fight. But with drastic number of games like NASL format (many tightly scheduled games), it is unusual to be a build order fight. It will be a Finals of more skilled player coming on top, solely depending on players dedication and practice and talent. And with such practice and commitment to the game, it will only result in Good Games." -Dijkstra of Playxp.com + Show Spoiler +밑에 분 말대로 GSL은 4강이후 결승까지 시간이 너무 많아서
선수들이 완벽하게 짜여진 맞춤빌드를 연구해옴
그것이 실패하면 엎치락뒤치락의 결승다운 양상이 아니라 그냥 실패한쪽이 무난하게 발리는 게임이 나옴
1경기 이후 경기도 뭔가를 준비해왔는데 성공하면 무난한 승리, 실패하면 무난한 패배
결승답지 않게 빌드의 성패가 결과를 극단적으로 가르기 때문에
보는입장에선 1경기의 여부에 따라 흥망이 명확히 갈림
그러나 NASL처럼 일정이 비교적 빠듯하다면 매경기마다 뭔가를 준비하기보단
평소 연습량과 실력, 센스, 그리고 임기응변이 선수의 기량에 따라 적절히 구현되기 때문에 오히려 더욱 명경기나 나오는거 같음 "Two Koreans in GSL Finals = Bad Bad, Two Koreans in ANYWHERE ELSE Finals = EPIC!" Wow this makes a lot of sense and seems pretty insightful. It's also fairly obvious and something people have been saying about the GSL finals for a while.
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On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN).
You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1.
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it's not a secret method of training, but it is a better method of training that has yet to be duplicated anywhere else in the world
therefore, training in korea, under the korean team system is better
some kid practicing on ladder 10 hours a day isn't going to improve as quickly as someone practicing against teammates, operating under a strict schedule. there's much more to it than time.
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On July 11 2011 19:10 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN). You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1.
Idra is the only person who I could see winning a tournament lan (assuming he doesn't get matched up against MC every lan in the early stages)
But Idra rides his BW Korea training in mechanics, that's why he doesn't need to practice as much because "everyone is catching up" to his mechanics.
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lol. PlayXP guys are so worried that foreigners will just ragequit SC2 if Koreans just dominate.
And the sad part is that their concerns are actually legit.
"kids at TL"
The truth has been spoken!
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On July 12 2011 00:35 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 19:10 JKira wrote:On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN). You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1. Idra is the only person who I could see winning a tournament lan (assuming he doesn't get matched up against MC every lan in the early stages) But Idra rides his BW Korea training in mechanics, that's why he doesn't need to practice as much because "everyone is catching up" to his mechanics. Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen all have bigger chances of winning major lans than Idra imho. Idra is way overhyped and his results have been pretty lackluster lately.
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On July 12 2011 00:46 oskarla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 00:35 Denzil wrote:On July 11 2011 19:10 JKira wrote:On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN). You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1. Idra is the only person who I could see winning a tournament lan (assuming he doesn't get matched up against MC every lan in the early stages) But Idra rides his BW Korea training in mechanics, that's why he doesn't need to practice as much because "everyone is catching up" to his mechanics. Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen all have bigger chances of winning major lans than Idra imho. Idra is way overhyped and his results have been pretty lackluster lately.
you can't judge a player from results only. look at puma: before NASL he must have been a nobody, because he won nothing? and what do you mean no results? 4th place and best foreigner in the last mlg? or is that to long ago?
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On July 12 2011 00:54 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 00:46 oskarla wrote:On July 12 2011 00:35 Denzil wrote:On July 11 2011 19:10 JKira wrote:On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN). You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1. Idra is the only person who I could see winning a tournament lan (assuming he doesn't get matched up against MC every lan in the early stages) But Idra rides his BW Korea training in mechanics, that's why he doesn't need to practice as much because "everyone is catching up" to his mechanics. Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen all have bigger chances of winning major lans than Idra imho. Idra is way overhyped and his results have been pretty lackluster lately. you can't judge a player from results only. look at puma: before NASL he must have been a nobody, because he won nothing? and what do you mean no results? 4th place and best foreigner in the last mlg? or is that to long ago? Yeah I know but tbh I've never been very impressed by his gameplay either. I mean it's good and definitely better than a lot of foreigners but it's not on a level higher like Denzil implied.
And as MLG Columbus goes, tbh he just got kind of lucky. He got through the pool play by winning against a not in shape MC. He even lost to Thorzain 0-2 in the pool play but got out as 1st in his pool anyway. Then he lost against MMA pretty bad, won against Slush 2-0 and then lost to MC 0-4. Not that impressive imo.
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On July 12 2011 01:00 oskarla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 00:54 Hardigan wrote:On July 12 2011 00:46 oskarla wrote:On July 12 2011 00:35 Denzil wrote:On July 11 2011 19:10 JKira wrote:On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN). You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1. Idra is the only person who I could see winning a tournament lan (assuming he doesn't get matched up against MC every lan in the early stages) But Idra rides his BW Korea training in mechanics, that's why he doesn't need to practice as much because "everyone is catching up" to his mechanics. Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen all have bigger chances of winning major lans than Idra imho. Idra is way overhyped and his results have been pretty lackluster lately. you can't judge a player from results only. look at puma: before NASL he must have been a nobody, because he won nothing? and what do you mean no results? 4th place and best foreigner in the last mlg? or is that to long ago? Yeah I know but tbh I've never been very impressed by his gameplay either. I mean it's good and definitely better than a lot of foreigners but it's not on a level higher like Denzil implied. And as MLG Columbus goes, tbh he just got kind of lucky. He got through the open bracket by winning against a not in shape MC. He even lost to Thorzain 0-2 in the groupstages but got out as 1st in his pool anyway. Then he lost against MMA pretty bad, won against Slush 2-0 and then lost to MC 4-0. Not that impressive imo. Open Bracket != Group Stage IdrA started seeded in the Group Phase already. Other than that I agree IdrA is overrated by his fans but I guess that's what fans do, regardless of which player we are talking about .
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On July 12 2011 00:54 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 00:46 oskarla wrote:On July 12 2011 00:35 Denzil wrote:On July 11 2011 19:10 JKira wrote:On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN). You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1. Idra is the only person who I could see winning a tournament lan (assuming he doesn't get matched up against MC every lan in the early stages) But Idra rides his BW Korea training in mechanics, that's why he doesn't need to practice as much because "everyone is catching up" to his mechanics. Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen all have bigger chances of winning major lans than Idra imho. Idra is way overhyped and his results have been pretty lackluster lately. you can't judge a player from results only. look at puma: before NASL he must have been a nobody, because he won nothing? and what do you mean no results? 4th place and best foreigner in the last mlg? or is that to long ago? As Osk said, that he got 4th at MLG is just a quirk of their oddball system really. He wasn't exactly impressive, going 0-2 and 0-4 against the Koreans, 0-2 against Thorzain...His results at DH/HSC/NASL aren't good either.
I'd say HuK and Sen are already better foreigners, and with Thorzain/Naniwa etc going to Korea I think they'll surpass him pretty quickly too - if they haven't already.
He's been riding his macro gained from his time in Korea, pretty much, but now others are catching up and he's just not special anymore.
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On July 12 2011 01:05 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 01:00 oskarla wrote:On July 12 2011 00:54 Hardigan wrote:On July 12 2011 00:46 oskarla wrote:On July 12 2011 00:35 Denzil wrote:On July 11 2011 19:10 JKira wrote:On July 11 2011 14:36 BilltownRunner wrote:On July 11 2011 14:27 Ren91 wrote:On July 11 2011 14:24 ktimekiller wrote:On July 11 2011 13:36 Cubu wrote: This issue never would have occurred if you people just considered their nationalities like normal people instead of going into deeper details like their training location to label them as american, korean etc. It matters because being trained in America and Korea are drastically different but it does change their entire nationality.... such a stupid argument lol The point isn't that foreigners are genetically inferior to Koreans, it's the training regime. When Huk wins I don't see that as a win for foreigners I see that as a win for Korean training. Still waiting for 'Foreign' training to win a tournament (LAN). You might be waiting for awhile. It's not like Koreans have some secret method of training or they get a memo from Blizzard about upcoming trends in the metagame. They just put more hours into it than most foreigners. And that's enough for them to dominate the scene like SC1 despite the game being much easier to play than SC1. Idra is the only person who I could see winning a tournament lan (assuming he doesn't get matched up against MC every lan in the early stages) But Idra rides his BW Korea training in mechanics, that's why he doesn't need to practice as much because "everyone is catching up" to his mechanics. Naniwa, Thorzain and Sen all have bigger chances of winning major lans than Idra imho. Idra is way overhyped and his results have been pretty lackluster lately. you can't judge a player from results only. look at puma: before NASL he must have been a nobody, because he won nothing? and what do you mean no results? 4th place and best foreigner in the last mlg? or is that to long ago? Yeah I know but tbh I've never been very impressed by his gameplay either. I mean it's good and definitely better than a lot of foreigners but it's not on a level higher like Denzil implied. And as MLG Columbus goes, tbh he just got kind of lucky. He got through the open bracket by winning against a not in shape MC. He even lost to Thorzain 0-2 in the groupstages but got out as 1st in his pool anyway. Then he lost against MMA pretty bad, won against Slush 2-0 and then lost to MC 4-0. Not that impressive imo. Open Bracket != Group Stage IdrA started seeded in the Group Phase already. Other than that I agree IdrA is overrated by his fans but I guess that's what fans do, regardless of which player we are talking about . Sorry, my bad, I meant of course group stages/pool play. Edited.
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I agree with Idra thing. He has been getting worse longer he is away from Korea even with his changes in play vs P. But his teamhouse is soon to be made so maybe he will start getting better again.
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Can't wait to see what the Koreans have to say about PuMa's performance against MC. Even though MC lost, seeing how he stepped up his game in g5+g6 made me realize what a true monster he is (yes, even though he lost). PuMa is like the shining ray of light which proved that could take down the monster.
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Hahah. Great translations as always.
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I guess this is done then? Are day 2 and day 3 in another thread maybe?
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Funny to read that they browse TL a bit. They were spot on with their Select Huk comment.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2011 17:15 BearChocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 09:49 EntertainMe wrote:I translated this in NASL Grand Finals Day 3 thread, but I think it's more appropriate here. Someone from playxp wrote a clever analysis of GSL Finals failure compare to NASL Finals: "In GSL, after the quarter-finals, the time given to prepare is just too much. With so much time to prepare, players come out with perfectly prepared build/timings. However, when such build/timing fails, because it's just too perfectly planned out, we do not get a long intense game but rather one landslide victory. Either win game 1 and win it all, or fail game 1 and lose it all. Unlike the Finals we saw today(more skilled player coming on top), GSL Finals is more of Build Order fight. But with drastic number of games like NASL format (many tightly scheduled games), it is unusual to be a build order fight. It will be a Finals of more skilled player coming on top, solely depending on players dedication and practice and talent. And with such practice and commitment to the game, it will only result in Good Games." -Dijkstra of Playxp.com + Show Spoiler +밑에 분 말대로 GSL은 4강이후 결승까지 시간이 너무 많아서
선수들이 완벽하게 짜여진 맞춤빌드를 연구해옴
그것이 실패하면 엎치락뒤치락의 결승다운 양상이 아니라 그냥 실패한쪽이 무난하게 발리는 게임이 나옴
1경기 이후 경기도 뭔가를 준비해왔는데 성공하면 무난한 승리, 실패하면 무난한 패배
결승답지 않게 빌드의 성패가 결과를 극단적으로 가르기 때문에
보는입장에선 1경기의 여부에 따라 흥망이 명확히 갈림
그러나 NASL처럼 일정이 비교적 빠듯하다면 매경기마다 뭔가를 준비하기보단
평소 연습량과 실력, 센스, 그리고 임기응변이 선수의 기량에 따라 적절히 구현되기 때문에 오히려 더욱 명경기나 나오는거 같음 "Two Koreans in GSL Finals = Bad Bad, Two Koreans in ANYWHERE ELSE Finals = EPIC!" Wow this makes a lot of sense and seems pretty insightful. How do you explain the TSL3 finals then?
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foreigners dont practice/prepare enough... duh!
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On July 14 2011 11:44 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 17:15 BearChocolate wrote:On July 11 2011 09:49 EntertainMe wrote:I translated this in NASL Grand Finals Day 3 thread, but I think it's more appropriate here. Someone from playxp wrote a clever analysis of GSL Finals failure compare to NASL Finals: "In GSL, after the quarter-finals, the time given to prepare is just too much. With so much time to prepare, players come out with perfectly prepared build/timings. However, when such build/timing fails, because it's just too perfectly planned out, we do not get a long intense game but rather one landslide victory. Either win game 1 and win it all, or fail game 1 and lose it all. Unlike the Finals we saw today(more skilled player coming on top), GSL Finals is more of Build Order fight. But with drastic number of games like NASL format (many tightly scheduled games), it is unusual to be a build order fight. It will be a Finals of more skilled player coming on top, solely depending on players dedication and practice and talent. And with such practice and commitment to the game, it will only result in Good Games." -Dijkstra of Playxp.com + Show Spoiler +밑에 분 말대로 GSL은 4강이후 결승까지 시간이 너무 많아서
선수들이 완벽하게 짜여진 맞춤빌드를 연구해옴
그것이 실패하면 엎치락뒤치락의 결승다운 양상이 아니라 그냥 실패한쪽이 무난하게 발리는 게임이 나옴
1경기 이후 경기도 뭔가를 준비해왔는데 성공하면 무난한 승리, 실패하면 무난한 패배
결승답지 않게 빌드의 성패가 결과를 극단적으로 가르기 때문에
보는입장에선 1경기의 여부에 따라 흥망이 명확히 갈림
그러나 NASL처럼 일정이 비교적 빠듯하다면 매경기마다 뭔가를 준비하기보단
평소 연습량과 실력, 센스, 그리고 임기응변이 선수의 기량에 따라 적절히 구현되기 때문에 오히려 더욱 명경기나 나오는거 같음 "Two Koreans in GSL Finals = Bad Bad, Two Koreans in ANYWHERE ELSE Finals = EPIC!" Wow this makes a lot of sense and seems pretty insightful. How do you explain the TSL3 finals then?
IMO, the reason GSL finals have been so one sided is because one player is usually completely outclassed. I dont' think it's because of the time they have to practice at all.
TSL finals kinda prove this point - both players were at the same level and they got a tonne of time to prepare - then they give us one of the best sc2 series to date.
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TSL finals were close but they weren't super high level like MC vs Puma was.
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