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On July 16 2011 23:54 Grackula wrote:Terrans and zergs should calm down + Show Spoiler +and focus on the fact that protoss is OP
Not this again... And please specify your points about protoss being OP
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On July 17 2011 03:16 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 03:01 Jackbo wrote:On July 16 2011 23:05 Elefanto wrote: The problem with ghosts is that you need a shitton of them, because at best you can hit 3 infestors to drain them mana. And 1 shot drains 100 mana, so you have to hit like 20 emps, there's not much left for sniping action. Just pointing out the difficulties, not saying it's imbalanced or anything. Just tested this out. I managed to hit 11 infestors with 1 emp, which drains 1100 energy in total. Should test these things out before arguing about them =/ Cant imagine how you would manage to hit 11. Tested it now 2 times with the absolute best outcome in term of zerg unit formation and emp hitting area. 9 were max, and those are fictive scenarios, in no real game would you manage to hit that many. Look for the bubbles to count them. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
even if u got 9 infestors with one emp that is still ALOT of infestors. a 2nd emp will easily finish the rest of the infestors off that have energy left. it only takes 2 ghosts with 100 energy each or 1 ghosts with 200 energy. most zergs tend to clump up there infestors for easy emping anyway.
take destiny for example. a player that has a playstyle heavily centered around infestors yet they are always vulnerable to emps or snipes.
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What? No change to bunker build time???
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I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
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Having a PTR, with a week to test and pretty much no chance of map changes (even though all of the high level community has already decried many of the new maps for having the same problems as the old maps) seems pointless, and sort of rude actually.
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
you sir, are a moron
/end
User was temp banned for this post.
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Yep fungal is a nightmare. You cant do anyting blink or stim. Ghosts and ht is the only way if you can get a shot in.
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On July 17 2011 03:16 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 03:01 Jackbo wrote:On July 16 2011 23:05 Elefanto wrote: The problem with ghosts is that you need a shitton of them, because at best you can hit 3 infestors to drain them mana. And 1 shot drains 100 mana, so you have to hit like 20 emps, there's not much left for sniping action. Just pointing out the difficulties, not saying it's imbalanced or anything. Just tested this out. I managed to hit 11 infestors with 1 emp, which drains 1100 energy in total. Should test these things out before arguing about them =/ Cant imagine how you would manage to hit 11. Tested it now 2 times with the absolute best outcome in term of zerg unit formation and emp hitting area. 9 were max, and those are fictive scenarios, in no real game would you manage to hit that many. Look for the bubbles to count them. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + Dunno how you only hit 9 max, I just right clicked a location with a cluster of infestors, hit hold position and sent in a ghost to EMP once and I hit 11. + Show Spoiler +
Tried it a 2nd time and got 12.
Tried a 3rd time with the infestors on a move command and hit 11.
Obviously the effect is diminished if they micro to try and keep infestors split, but 11 seems perfectly reasonable.
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Map TEST 1 , is a SC2 version of "La Mancha" from Broodwar, ^___________^. I wouldn't be surprised if is called the same name.
http:
The other maps are just pure crap
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I don't understand why Terrans are crying nerf for the infestor like it was the most powerful spell in the game. FF is by far the most powerful spell with it's ability to completely control how a battle will go down. Being able to cut an army in half and deny reinforcements is far more powerful than holding down a group of marines for 4 seconds and doing 36 damage. Siege Tanks do 35 damage in siege mode, Storm does 80 damage, but Zerg can't have a spell that does 36 to your marines?
Never mind the fact that Ghosts can nullify infestors with their EMP. Never mind that a group of 5 ghosts can snipe off 20 infestors, a little less while cloaked (2 snipes kill an infestor. Just shift+double click an infestor). In this hypothetical where infestor/broodlord is unstoppable, I am taken back to TSL3. Remember when Protoss could just turtle to VR/Stalker/Colossus max army and roll over anything the zerg could make? In fact, they still can. When Zergs were crying imbalanced, they were told to deal with it and find ways around it. The ultimate solution has been to just prevent Protoss players from being able to get that composition. There is still nothing a Zerg can do against that army if the protoss gets it. Not even the oh so squishy infestor can stop it, for they are still squishy. Infestors help, but it is the NP mainly that helps out.
Perhaps Terrans should do against Zerg what Zergs were forced to do against Protoss, and change up your strategy and game play. There is a lot of room to make different late game strategies, perhaps you should start with the unit that directly shuts down infestors, the Ghost(Blizzard even made them cheaper for you.).
I have a funny feeling that the real reason Terrans don't make Ghosts is the same reason they don't make Ravens. They don't have a Tech lab on any/enough barracks in the late game, and don't want to bother to do so.
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On July 18 2011 07:49 Chubbaluphigous wrote: the Ghost(Blizzard even made them cheaper for you.).
in fact in late game most terrans have too much gas and no minerals, so the ghost has actually been made more expensive.
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On July 18 2011 02:59 DarkDolphin wrote:Map TEST 1 , is a SC2 version of "La Mancha" from Broodwar, ^___________^. I wouldn't be surprised if is called the same name. http: The other maps are just pure crap
That's pretty amazing, actually. I suppose it's not unprecedented (Crossfire is basically Sin Peaks of Beakdu), but it's still weird. And it makes a lot of the complaining slightly funny retroactively.
I doubt they'd call it La Mancha, though. That's a KeSPA map.
Edit: I also just noticed the rocks in your natural. ....Why? They're not blocking anything. Destroying them doesn't open a new path. They're just there. It is to make it easier to wall off?
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On July 18 2011 02:59 DarkDolphin wrote:Map TEST 1 , is a SC2 version of "La Mancha" from Broodwar, ^___________^. I wouldn't be surprised if is called the same name. http: The other maps are just pure crap
I really love La Mancha :D
Tbh I think Blizz should just copy BW maps and make some changes and make it look different because the rest of their maps are just utter trash tbh...
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On July 18 2011 08:03 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:59 DarkDolphin wrote:Map TEST 1 , is a SC2 version of "La Mancha" from Broodwar, ^___________^. I wouldn't be surprised if is called the same name. http: The other maps are just pure crap I really love La Mancha :D Tbh I think Blizz should just copy BW maps and make some changes and make it look different because the rest of their maps are just utter trash tbh... Agreed, or even just use more community maps.
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On July 18 2011 07:59 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:59 DarkDolphin wrote:Map TEST 1 , is a SC2 version of "La Mancha" from Broodwar, ^___________^. I wouldn't be surprised if is called the same name. http: The other maps are just pure crap That's pretty amazing, actually. I suppose it's not unprecedented (Crossfire is basically Sin Peaks of Beakdu), but it's still weird. And it makes a lot of the complaining slightly funny retroactively. I doubt they'd call it La Mancha, though. That's a KeSPA map. Edit: I also just noticed the rocks in your natural. ....Why? They're not blocking anything. Destroying them doesn't open a new path. They're just there. It is to make it easier to wall off? Indeed, it reduces the number of 3x3 buildings required to wall off from 4 to 3. A little bit of an added bonus.
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On July 17 2011 05:59 Amui wrote:I decided to test out forge FE's on test map 4, because that is the "macro" map after finding that the ramp is much wider than shakuras in a PTR ladder game....... Top right, 7 hexes from ramp to nexus. Very awkward to wall, idk what to do with this Well I noticed this too and here's how I've decided to deal with it...
That pylon powering the two cannons is only necessary for the second cannon on the right side of the nexus; the first pylon is the bottom left one, and it powers both buildings plus the one cannon. It's not an ideal setup, but... it allows for a complete wall-off. There's also a modification you can make to this wall, which is personally the way I would do it:
This one might seem like an unimportant difference, but i have it shown here because this one leaves the initial pylon less surface area to be attacked by lings or banelings.
Also, see the zealot in both pictures? This is not necessary for a complete wall-off, but I have one there to illustrate that, if need be, you can place a zealot here if the initial pylon is being focused down so that units could run through - the zealot blocks it off, and you can even place a pylon behind him later on which would act as a third layer of a wall, though that's completely optional.
What I have here is definitely not an ideal wall-in for a forge FE, but I really think it's the best you can do here...
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Test Map 3 and 4 are okay. 3 is actually pretty good. Test Map 2 natural is so hard to hold it makes me want to kill myself. They can't be serious about putting this into the map pool. Overall the maps need to be bigger and have less ramps. It's ridiculous.
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On July 18 2011 08:03 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 02:59 DarkDolphin wrote:Map TEST 1 , is a SC2 version of "La Mancha" from Broodwar, ^___________^. I wouldn't be surprised if is called the same name. http: The other maps are just pure crap I really love La Mancha :D Tbh I think Blizz should just copy BW maps and make some changes and make it look different because the rest of their maps are just utter trash tbh...
I don't think that BW maps translate all that well to SC2 (I think the reason there's no ICCUP Destination was that it was a disaster of a map in SC2).
I'd actually like it a lot better if it were like Terminus, Taldarim, Bel'Shir Beach, Dual Site, and then Kerrigan's Wrath, an Island map, etc. I want more experimentation on the Blizz ladder, and more people using NTBL for "real" laddering.
On July 18 2011 09:07 eXwOn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 07:59 Ribbon wrote:On July 18 2011 02:59 DarkDolphin wrote:Map TEST 1 , is a SC2 version of "La Mancha" from Broodwar, ^___________^. I wouldn't be surprised if is called the same name. http: The other maps are just pure crap That's pretty amazing, actually. I suppose it's not unprecedented (Crossfire is basically Sin Peaks of Beakdu), but it's still weird. And it makes a lot of the complaining slightly funny retroactively. I doubt they'd call it La Mancha, though. That's a KeSPA map. Edit: I also just noticed the rocks in your natural. ....Why? They're not blocking anything. Destroying them doesn't open a new path. They're just there. It is to make it easier to wall off? Indeed, it reduces the number of 3x3 buildings required to wall off from 4 to 3. A little bit of an added bonus.
Hm. I'm starting to think about walling off with evo chambers as Zerg. Get like two evos, a spine, and a queen and be really defended, especially against Hellions. I should try it later and see how it goes.
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
I must say that I somewhat agree with this. Obviously not all Zerg players are like this, but behind almost every stereotype there's some uncomfortable truth. Everyone is biased, including myself, and since I'm not a Zerg player my agreeing with this obviously looks pretty self-serving, but it's definitely an opinion that I've developed from lurking and posting on various forums since the very first GSL, so I just thought I'd tell you that you're not alone on this.
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is the PTR currently down?
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