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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
yea you kinda got a point. /agree
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
The "" face in your signature is quite fitting. Maybe you should whine less and find ways to work around the problems you're talking about.
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Hey reborn maybe you should notice that Zerg hit with the nerf bat multiple times from the very beginning of beta (Roach supply + armor, Hydra HP, Infestor HP, Queen off-creep speed, Spine/Spore burrow). ZERGS HAVE BEEN SUCKING IT UP AND WORKING AROUND IT FOREVER. Selective hindsight makes your posts very ugly and stupid.
Oh, and Zerg players don't act as a hive mind regardless of what you'd like to think. Buzz off with your biased garbage.
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
Except absolutely nothing has happened to indicate Zerg needs a nerf. Zerg doesn't suddenly have a high tournament win rate, that's still Terran. There isn't a Zerg build that is unstoppable or anything close to it. Korean Terrans already know how to deal with infestor/brood lord with ghosts. Almost every ZvT being won with infestor/brood lord is just the logical conclusion of Zerg being ahead the entire game, trading lots of zerglings and few gas units for gas-heavy tanks and thors while being a base up, but having no possible way to attack Terran other than this combination of units. (You will never kill a Terran with anything else after the early game aside from totally money-starving him or overwhelming with pure muta count.) Infestor/Brood Lord can be easily whittled away with cheaper units if you're in the economic position to fight a war of attrition, and it opens Zerg to counter drops.
And the infestor nerfs in the PTR were absolutely stupid because it was literally impossible to deal with Protoss air units at any point in the game, or land a single fungal on a ball of units (not to mention the horribly slow projectile effectively reduced the range of the spell to almost nothing, so marine/tank totally destroyed infestors without even having to split up).
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Sorry bad post please remove mods
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Several performance and memory improvements have been made.
This is the best change in this patch and it is really noticiable in my computer!
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On July 18 2011 10:59 RoKetha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim. Except absolutely nothing has happened to indicate Zerg needs a nerf. Zerg doesn't suddenly have a high tournament win rate, that's still Terran. There isn't a Zerg build that is unstoppable or anything close to it. Korean Terrans already know how to deal with infestor/brood lord with ghosts. Almost every ZvT being won with infestor/brood lord is just the logical conclusion of Zerg being ahead the entire game, trading lots of zerglings and few gas units for gas-heavy tanks and thors while being a base up, but having no possible way to attack Terran other than this combination of units. (You will never kill a Terran with anything else after the early game aside from totally money-starving him or overwhelming with pure muta count.) Infestor/Brood Lord can be easily whittled away with cheaper units if you're in the economic position to fight a war of attrition, and it opens Zerg to counter drops. And the infestor nerfs in the PTR were absolutely stupid because it was literally impossible to deal with Protoss air units at any point in the game, or land a single fungal on a ball of units (not to mention the horribly slow projectile effectively reduced the range of the spell to almost nothing, so marine/tank totally destroyed infestors without even having to split up).
You really could make a post like that to explain why Protoss/Terran don't need nerfs, and it would seem reasonable, because all you're doing is loosely theorycrafting. All I can say is that I've indeed seen plenty of things that contradict many of the claims you make. I'm really tired of seeing people going "Zerg will NEVER be able to win here" or "It's literally impossible to win here". That's the exact sort of mentality that the guy you're replying to is talking about. You only deal with absolutes, so sure of the supposed futility of various situations as a Zerg player - yet, when people see Zergs actually triumph in those supposedly futile situations, lots of Zerg players will just go, "Oh, the Zerg was way ahead of and/or a better player than his opponent, so that's why he did manage to win there" to handwave the contradictions in their lame theorycraft. I'd like to add that in multiple winrate statistic topics, Protoss seemed to have the lowest overall tournament performance, yet plenty of people were happy to dismiss them as being too small of a sample pool to really indicate anything, which I agree with, so please don't try to bring up tournament winrates as evidence of anything. It's just tiring to see that sort of mentality manifest over and over, and it's likely why the "Zerg QQ" stereotype exists.
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On July 18 2011 07:49 Chubbaluphigous wrote: I don't understand why Terrans are crying nerf for the infestor like it was the most powerful spell in the game. FF is by far the most powerful spell with it's ability to completely control how a battle will go down. Being able to cut an army in half and deny reinforcements is far more powerful than holding down a group of marines for 4 seconds and doing 36 damage. Siege Tanks do 35 damage in siege mode, Storm does 80 damage, but Zerg can't have a spell that does 36 to your marines?
It's not just the total damage of the spell that people complain about. Fungal Growth completely shuts down any and all micro potential for the opposing army, and against anything that can't out range the spell (such as marines for example) a single fungal growth sets the units up to be repeatedly hit with the spell again and again until they die from the damage. Storm can be micro'd out of (so it's often 20-40 damage not 80) and force fields can be popped by massive units if you really need to get them out of the way (and only work on ground units, but still also allows the opposing units to micro to some extent).
Never mind the fact that Ghosts can nullify infestors with their EMP. Never mind that a group of 5 ghosts can snipe off 20 infestors, a little less while cloaked (2 snipes kill an infestor. Just shift+double click an infestor). In this hypothetical where infestor/broodlord is unstoppable, I am taken back to TSL3. Remember when Protoss could just turtle to VR/Stalker/Colossus max army and roll over anything the zerg could make? In fact, they still can. When Zergs were crying imbalanced, they were told to deal with it and find ways around it. The ultimate solution has been to just prevent Protoss players from being able to get that composition. There is still nothing a Zerg can do against that army if the protoss gets it. Not even the oh so squishy infestor can stop it, for they are still squishy. Infestors help, but it is the NP mainly that helps out.
Except Ghosts often take 3 snipes to kill an infester due to a bug* with Zerg Health Regeneration. While this by no means makes it impossible to use Ghosts to deal with infesters and Broodlords, it does make it quite APM intensive, and is certainly much more difficult to pull off then it is to play against (not that that is necessarily bad). I/BL is certainly powerful, but it is by no means unstoppable, just excruciatingly cost efficient.
*The cooldown on health regen for zerg units continues to tick while the unit is at full health so it recovers the first point of damage almost immediately when it takes its first portion of damage, as opposed to having to wait the duration of the cooldown to recover the first hitpoint. It is possible for two Ghosts to kill a single Infester in two snipes provided they are both told to snipe the same target and both do so within less than one tenth of a second of each other (to not allow the health point to regen), a single Ghost cannot kill an Infester in two Snipes because ZHR will kick in during the cooldown between the snipes leaving the Infester with 1hp after two snipes. It is this same bug that is the reason the 250mm Strike Cannon from the Thor will not kill an Ultralisk and why a Drone will always beat a Probe in a duel (with no micro).
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I think even without the infestor unit, Zerg might have an advantage ZvT lategame. I mean, before the buff, it was still viewed as pretty hard for the Terran if he didn't go into the late game with an advantage due to the broodlord/ultralisk food cycling Zerg players would do. With infestor/broodlord, it feels more like Zerg players will just outright crush the Terran in one go, but Zerg players don't need infestors to crush a Terran lategame in two blows if they have any sort of advantage.
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
Very true post.
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On July 18 2011 12:56 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim. Very true post.
Amen.
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
This. Perhaps the Zerg race as a whole needs a redesign, but it is also pathetic that they are the only race in the game capable of successfully using QQ politics to get the other races nerfed/theirs buffed. Despite this, when other races attempt to make the same sorts of complaints (and note, this is a joint effort between Terran and Protoss players, not just one race qq'ing), Zerg players now try to hush them for "qqing". Sad.
Edit: Shame on Blizzard for not testing any race changes in 1.3.5. Why not experiment with some potential changes along with the new maps to see how they would function in the coming season?
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On July 18 2011 12:56 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim. Very true post. Ridiculous post. take your own advice and stop whining about everything. -EDIT: if you think that blizzard made any changes because of Zerg QQ you are dumb, they tried it themselves and saw it was ridiculous and changed it or changed it back because it needed to be changed, if there's one thing that is good about the sc2 blizzard design team is that they think for themselves and not jump for every idiot that think that something should be one way or the other, even if they are sometimes wrong.
anyone knows what will be the new map pool, notice I said new map POOL not new maps, blizzard said they made some changes in exciting maps and added new maps, I saw the new maps but what map did they change? what season 2 maps will carry on and what maps will be swapped?
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On July 18 2011 12:10 koppik wrote: I think even without the infestor unit, Zerg might have an advantage ZvT lategame. I mean, before the buff, it was still viewed as pretty hard for the Terran if he didn't go into the late game with an advantage due to the broodlord/ultralisk food cycling Zerg players would do. With infestor/broodlord, it feels more like Zerg players will just outright crush the Terran in one go, but Zerg players don't need infestors to crush a Terran lategame in two blows if they have any sort of advantage.
I don't see how its possible for this situation to exist. Are there any games that have proceeded to late game without either player having an advantage?
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim.
uuuuh, right.
First of all, I don't recall any massive whining about the proposal to change Fungal to a missile attack. From what I remember most Zergs were ok with it, just because Blizz tests something in PTR doesn't mean they want that change for certain, they tried it out, decided they didn't like it, nuff said. People will whine about pretty much everything, hell, I saw plenty of Zergs complaining about the Fungal bufff simply because it lowered the overall duration time, so what? Not everyone who cried on the forums is going to get their way, Blizzard gonna do what Blizzard gonna do.
You're complaining about an Infestor/Broodlord/Queen combo? Have you even ever experienced such a thing? How do you even know it's OP or not? You're complaining about the Creep speed bonus and acting like it's a free thing, sure it doesn't cost minerals but it still takes time and effort to spread and can be cleared at least as easily as it can be spread not to mention it isn't any sort of huge buff considering how Zerg basically need it to survive in the first place.
How would Zerg feel if Larva Inject was nerfed? What's the point in asking this? Has Chrono or Orbital Commands or Planetary Fortresses ever been nerfed? You complain that Terran and Protoss have been nerfed endlessly and Zerg go untouched but I can't agree with this at all. Do you remember how strong Roaches used to be? If not let me remind you they used to be half the supply that they are now and had insane regeneration, people complained about it, so it got changed. Neural Parasite used to last a lot longer, Hydras used to attack faster, Ultras did more damage, Infestors also now move slower, blah blah blah. The only real recent buffs we've had are +1 Roach range and the Fungal buff.
You actually think Zerg "collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate" when in the face of the Protoss deathball? This is probably the single most ignorant statement out of them all and it's wrong in every possible way. A LOT of Zerg worked very hard on innovation, and in my opinion the single biggest result of that innovation was the strategy of using baneling drops to defeat the ball. Zerg have always tried to fix their problems, don't act like every single person who cries on the forums because they can't overcome a hurdle speaks for the entire community. What are YOU doing? Zerg get one major buff, the Fungal buff, and I have seen countless Terran and Protoss crying about it instead of trying to innovate their way out of it. I don't assume every Terran and Protoss thinks so ignorantly but I sure do know a lot of them aren't even putting in the effort to try. You say every Protoss and Terran know how to suck it up and deal with it, I really wish that was true.
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It's not just refuse to innovate, it's refuse to innovate compared to Terran and Protoss. I've seen much more creativity out of P and T than Z's. Day9 said it best when I'd say 90% of the SCII time Zergs were literally just picking a random number to drone to and then building their army... that's not innovation. Recently things have started to change with Zergs, and only recently has Zerg actually been doing well at high level... coincidence?
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I honestly just kinda hate people that play zerg at this point.
Zerg is the race of crying about things to get their way. It's just sad to see something like a zerg say "lol you noob marine spammer, go 1a t some more" when all they do is 1a their units, and dont even need to time stims correctly. Also, massive ling spam. Seriously, how can a zerg player complain about somebody "spamming a unit" when I've seen zerg players with over 100 lings in production at once.
The zerg race as a whole needs to straight up stop bitching and start learning how to play. I blame IdrA for the most part....if he just shut his face up and didn't whine and complain on every medium he could find none of this insanity would have begun.
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lol nearly 700 replies to BFH picture change. Classic.
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On July 17 2011 11:10 Reborn8u wrote: I remember when they were going to change infestor's fungal to not hit flying, and when they were going to make fungal an avoidable projectile. Then zerg players whined their way out of it, with little if any real world testing being done and the whining being the sole factor in not doing it. Now when an army gets fungaled all the person can do is sit there and hope the zerg player misses one of the following fungals so they can get away and not loose every unit. It's really bad like this. Not to mention infestors can burrow and move around like a cloaked ghost for 0 mana cost. All the people complaining about infestor broodlord, just wait till the zergs get smart and start dumping all their minerals on queens in the late game with this combo. It's completely absurd. Queens can tank a lot of damage, heal the infestors and broodlords, provide long range anti air support, and are pretty cheap, without costing larva. In the late game the creep will be all over the place anyway, giving the zerg a FREE speed bonus and sight of half the map. So the queens will be able to keep up with the army fairly well, considering how slow broodlords are anyway. My point is there are some serious things that need to be fixed and Blizzard won't stand up to the zerg whine storm that will follow. They've nerfed thors, medevacs, tanks, vikings, stim for terran and they adapted. They nerfed warp gate research, took away void speed and HT amulet, nerfed zealot and forge build time, nerfed pylon radius, nerfed motherships, and protoss adapted. I can only imagine what would happen if Blizzard proposed nerfing one of zerg's core mechanics like larva inject, or a core unit like lings or roaches, or took away, weakened, or nerfed some of zergs upgrades. Seriously, does anyone not see a serious issue with the mentality at work in all of this? Also, I can't even tell you all the times there has been zergs saying things like banelings are useless in pvz, or that the deathball is unstoppable (even without using infestors), or that void colossus was imbalanced. Zerg players collectively folded their arms and refused to innovate, until after balance changes were made. All of these things turned out to be completely false, but the game seems to have been balanced as if they were fact. TLDR: Sure, I may not be spot on with every fact or opinion in this thread, but again there is a serious issue with the mentality at work here. Nerf what ever you want for terran or toss and they will suck it up and work around it. If you even suggest a nerf for anything zerg and they will blast the forums with whine until it is changed or dismissed to their advantage. Stop playing the victim. we don't whine son, we have weaker units so if blizzard nerfs us they know they might screw up that's why there is a ptr. The fact is Protoss and Terran won't complain because their units, in most cases are stronger than ours. Luckily those deathballs weren't as popular before the infestor patch or zergs would most likely be able to win any games. Us zergs need to thank people like Spanishiwa, Blizzard, Destiny and Catz for bringing up new styles for us to play.
you'll notice that zerg will hit there skill cap alot quicker than terran/protoss, for the fact that there aren't that many options for a zerg to do because of their lack of units, and there are alot of creative zergs figuring out new stuff with our limited units e.g. CatZ,Spanishiwa, Destiny (his infestor play) , in CatZ's stream he even said that there are so many options for terran/protoss to have, but they don't use them, so in a year maybe all terran armies will have a raven in them ALWAYS. or protoss always have a Warp prism in a game and get the warp prism speed upgrade for engagements
It's as simple as that, don't try to fob off that zerg whines, it's that we have less options and we can reach our skill cap faster because our pro's are creative and dont just use a normal build like marine,tank or collo,sentry,stalker,zealot. we use a bunch of different units like the infestor,ling,queen,broodlord,ultra,banelings, overlords,roaches,hydras,mutas and basically we should use all units in a proper macro game (maybe not more than 1 tier 3) because we don't have that much unit flexibility. Put that in your head son
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its funny all the T/P bitching about Zergs.. bitching... Ironic, eh?
Fact is Zerg is balanced in the sense it can win, imbalanced in the sense its much more difficult and fragile. T and P are so much more forgiving its a joke. Zergs are playing starcraft, T/P are playing connect 4 on their iphones.
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