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On July 22 2011 13:49 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:46 HiveONE wrote:On July 22 2011 13:35 denzelz wrote:On July 22 2011 13:22 HiveONE wrote:I've read the OP several times. I've walked away from it and held off what I wanted to say in hopes I would change my mind or see a different view. Nothing has changed so here it goes. I do not live in Korea so I can't respond to Jessica's legal action that she has taken. I do realize that Eve is the first female progamer for SC2 and I will give Jessica the benefit of the doubt. I assume that she is trying her hardest to protect this young girl from public scrutiny and I commend her in doing so. My issue doesn't involve whether or not Jessica overreacted or reacted appropriately. The problem I have with this article is Jessica's choice of Eve. She is quoted saying she chose Eve based on her skills and looks. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=243800When Eve first was announced on the team she was a gold level player. Let me repeat this. She is a gold level Korean player (currently in diamond now). There are two things wrong with this sentence. gold league and Korea do NOT roll off the tongue. It doesn't roll off easily, not even at all. Korea is still the powerhouse of Starcraft. Not just SC1 BW but SC2 as well. The "foreign scene" is really shrinking that gap but they just quite aren't there yet in my opinion. How can you possibly choose a gold level Korean player and then say the decision was based on her skills, looks and potential? Potential is hard to measure but when you are looking in the gold leagues for a budding SC2 female programer I come to the conclusion she was chosen in large part due to her looks. I must apologize but I laughed when Jessica says that a female gamer must use toddler steps and claw her way up to the high and almighty masters league. First she says this, "...it is no mean feat for a female to reach Master level while laddering against males. It is difficult for the average male player, too." Okay, you kind of said it's hard for both genders to get into masters. Let's read more. " If you condemn her to be unworthy for not becoming a Master in under a month, how would female players anywhere ever even attempt to make it in Starcraft?" Okay this is actually a decent point. Female SC2 players are in the minority. If we scrutinize them and nip them in the bud too early it will stunt the female growth in the SC2 scene even further. Then this gem comes from Jessica's mouth, " She is here to make the game more entertaining and to show that unlike in Starcraft 1, female players can easily do well in Starcraft 2." Wait a minute. You just proved my point. There is no advantage due to gender and, "female players can easily do well in Starcraft2." So why did she even start ranting about female players playing in the mostly male league system? Get real. There are female masters players out there. Yes the scene is HUGELY dominated by male players and they have a good head start. But let's get back to reality. An RTS takes strategy, planning, cunning, and skill to play at a high level. This is not a physically based game we are talking about. We are talking about intuition, ability to get cold hard facts from scouting and knowing what it means, reaction timing and skill that comes from repetitive motion practice. How is her being a female ANY different from say a male who has never played an RTS game and decided to play SC2 as his first RTS game? Would that "newbie" male player have an advantage over the female player? I'm genuinely curious to hear Jessica's response to that question. Lastly, I want to make it very clear this is not an attack on Eve. I wish Eve the best of luck in her progaming career and would love to watch her play at a very high level. I am only criticizing the manager of the team and how she went about this. If her whole goal was to simply get a pretty face in front of the camera and show the whole world they took an average female player and trained her to compete in a high skill environment to be an idle for other SC2 female gamers...why not just come out and say that? I think it's silly to throw in this "gender gap" debate and on top of that try and tell everyone to consider her a progamer when she hasn't proven herself yet. In my opinion this is just a slap in the face to skilled female gamers that are actually wanting or trying to find a way to crack into the pro scene. TL DR: Eve is awesome got no beef. I'm willing to give Jessica the benefit of the doubt about her legal action in Korea and reaction to the public. I think Jessica is using silly excuses to explain why she chose Eve to be on the team. I'm rooting for Eve to become a successful female gamer, but can't help but wonder if there were more deserving and skilled female gamers out there to choose from (This is a reflection on Jessica's decision not Eve as a person). Eve was a Diamond level player with her old account. Her new SlayerS account is Gold because of placement and ladder lock. Same reason why Destiny's Korean account is still Platinum. SlayerS likes to take risk and scout out potential talent to train for the future. This is the approach Boxer used with MMA and Alicia. People doubted Boxer when he started his own team from basically nothing but his reputation. Now, SlayerS is one of the top teams in Korea. At this moment, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to believe that Eve is not going to be the next star in a year. Thank you for clarifying! Jessica's quote in her original post says something similar to her saying that Eve is taking unwarranted assault at being in the gold league. (She is diamond league) I took this as Jessica confirming her being in gold and then updating that she is now in diamond. I was wrong. However, since she is still in diamond and not high masters I stand by my original post. I have no idea how good Eve can be and I wish her the best of luck. Re-read my post a little more closely next time. As for there being ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to believe Eve is not going to be the next star in a year.....really? You can't think of any? List her current tournament accomplishments please. Could she be a break out star? HELL YEA!! Could she be the breakthrough female progamers need to start playing this game more? HELL YEA!! But these are all dependent on how she does and currently she has very little accomplishments to say there is zero reason for her to be a star in just one short year. I merely stated that we don't know the future. No one saw MMA or Alicia to be the powerhouse players that they are today except for Boxer. We just have no idea how she will do in 12-18 months but everyone is already making predictions for her to fail. Are we going to start a thread for every player that a major Korean team recruits and scrutinize their history in order to make 200+ page threads?
Good post. My OP is quite long and I am not very good at clarifying what I mean to say. I was more against how Jessica went about getting this girl and then trying to defend her with silly excuses. I truly do wish Eve the best. I understand I am slightly biased because I am only looking at her league and giving her an unfair view and assuming that she won't do as well. I'm viewing this from a college football perspective (bear with me I'll keep this one short). I'm simply assuming she is a 3 star recruit based on her league ranking alone(5 star is best 1 star is worse). I view her as a solid player with no expectations of her. However, there are quite a few previous 3 star college football recruits playing in the NFL today. So during this huge storm that is put on SlayerS team right now. I will start to view Eve with more of a glass half full outlook and give her the benefit of the doubt.
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On July 22 2011 13:56 Silentskyca wrote: If I was Jessica I would have came right out and said, "I wanted to train up a female gamer to compete in the pro scene, to put a female face out there for woman gamers to see. I felt this would inspire more female interest in esports, and would show the world that females can be just as competitive and successful in esports as males. I chose Eve because I felt that with the right training she can be a force to be reckoned with."
Forget all of the demeaning comments and the woman can't play as well as men crap, and the comments about her skill level. Just say you're going to train her up. She can prove herself when she's ready to compete at a pro level. No one would complain then.
This is pretty much the perfect summary for what I was trying to get across in that stupid book I wrote. Well said.
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I'm seeing a lot of people saying that this is unfair to girls in e-sports because....? Because a pro team is giving a girl the opportunity of a lifetime with professional training and support and allowing her the chance to reach her full potential as a player, and in doing so hopefully encouraging more girls to give pro-gaming an honest shot?
Honestly I don't understand the problem here. Even if you disagree with her being recruited, how can anyone honestly think there's no problem with all the hate and trolling that eve has received, for doing nothing wrong?
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SlayerS_Jessica i love your passion for your team and your willingness to protect them keep it up.
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This is really awesome that you've taken the time to write such a long post on TL to clarify the situation. I'll definitely be cheering on Slayers in the future!!
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While reading through, I was still kind of wavering back and forth, thinking "okay...okay... makes sense... I guess...."
Then she brings up BoxeR
Lim Yohwan is a man who has always walked together with e-Sports in Korea.
I'm convinced!
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Man that post almost brought a tear to my eye... I wasn't really aware how Korean culture treated internet bullying and the like. SlayerS fighting!
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Totally awesome that you would come to TL, post this, and clear up all the bullshit. I myself would absolutely love to see a wider audience give a shot at the pro scene and not have it excluded to dudes from 17-20. I don't think it's weird either that the means would be a little unconventional to make that happen. I think it's totally sad that it's come under such scrutiny but being from the west and it's internet cutlture where we pretty much see the un-moderated internet as a cage of brain dead parrots yelling at the top of their lungs, I'm not exactly surprised.
Good luck with the traning of SlayerS_Eve and fuck the haters!!!
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SlayerS fighting. Always been a fan. Be blind to the haters.
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i kept tryin to write a big ol post about how awesome you are slayers_jessica but everything sounded hollow, so i will just say this: please keep doing what you're doing for SlayerS, the female community in e-sports, and boxer. you are literally the best.
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some guys posting bad here and even twitter against jessica or eve... i cant understant it
seems like "giving someone a chance" it out and its "cooler" to bash them without knowing anything
i feel rly sorry for them and hope they not think that the majority of the foreigns are like this !
ps: i am a fan of eve seeing someone do so much effort to make a dream possible impresses me!
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I hope this goes over well, and doesn't turn into a deterrent for other females (Eve either) trying to enter the pro-gaming scene. I could say a whole bunch on the subject, but i doubt anyone cares.
gl hf SlayerS_Eve!
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Its so funny how well spoken words can completely change my opinion
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Canada10904 Posts
Given that Slayers wishes to pave the way for more girl gamers/ expand the market, it would make sense to sign on a... oh, I don't know... a female? But from some of the naysayers, it would seem that people want this to happen by never signing on a female.
Someone's gotta start signing on a couple females at some point. People seem to get hung up on the whole signed on for looks (wasn't that also the case for Bisu?), but ignore that both skill and potential were also considered. And yeah if you're going to break into a new market, you're going to want someone that's marketable. Not some greasy nerdling. Boxer advanced BW not only because he was/is a good gamer, but he was/is charismatic. Same thing if you're wanting a couple icons of SC to advance esports in North America- you want your Jinro's, Tylers, and Day9's. Not your 14 year old, foul-mouthed, greasy, angry nerdling trolls. Aesthetics. Why are we so offended by presentability?
I'll admit I wasn't sure about Boxer's new team originally, but I have been nothing but amazed with his ability to pick such powerhouse players. And yet when it comes to a female, people suddenly doubt the Emperor's ability to pick talent? Yes she's untested. So was all of SlayerS team. Boxer consciously chose to work with no-names that he can build up. I expect this will be the same with Eve. Maybe she won't be the next Tyrant or Revolutionist, but she's been given such an opportunity. Why begrudge that?
To SlayerS Jessica I appreciate the effort to reach out to the reasonable portion of TL to explain your position. Hopefully, it's not in vain.
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I just wanted to say I am a Slayers fan, I have been since I heard Boxer was starting it, and I will continue to be a big fan. I kept quiet on the other thread, but it sounds like too many fans kept quiet since you got a bad impression from TL on that thread. Slayers fighting!
I hope for all the best, and I support the actions you took to those cyberbullies, there are some cases of that here in the USA where children have killed themselves over it. People here need to be more receptive to this news, and pay attention! It's a very real problem.
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Slayers Fighting, Best luck to Eve! Soon as she develops and people see her play all this will go away.
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Much respect for Slayers and Jessica. Boxer is a lucky guy to have someone that is both pretty and has no problem taking a stand for what she believes in.
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Nice to get your point of view on it all as well
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I love slayers_everyoneontheteamespeciallycella. And i think we are all forgetting that slayers is a troll team, and jessica is/was? an actress. Shes just acting you all just got trolled. :D
I hope Eve trains hard and shows some good games as well.
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