If he's a fatherly figure, he's certainly an abusive one at that.
TSL's Coach Lee speaks out on PuMa - Page 35
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Kich
United States339 Posts
If he's a fatherly figure, he's certainly an abusive one at that. | ||
ViZe
United States1513 Posts
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UkGracken
United Kingdom129 Posts
regarding clide and sangho who i think were on contracts whoever approached them is disgusting! Hope it doesn't go to more crazy then this, already Koreans and foreign teams going together | ||
Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On July 22 2011 12:42 mols0n wrote: I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team I hope you're not talking about coL.cs, because they all have nothing but bad things to say about Jason Lake. EG should have definitely talked to TSL about the transfer, but everyone is demonizing them as if they're "stealing" players that aren't contracted and would rather be with EG than their team. The only party that's losing out is the one that decided not to contract their players. | ||
Kich
United States339 Posts
On July 24 2011 06:51 UkGracken wrote: To be honest this news has been around for a few days and i haven't posted till now because i wanted to be sure in what i think, I really think they should not be approaching players on contract, but as puma was not on contract due to financial situations or "trust" whatever reason this is not wrong by EG and its crazy to see this reaction by the Korean community but i think its for the following i hope! regarding clide and sangho who i think were on contracts whoever approached them is disgusting! Hope it doesn't go to more crazy then this, already Koreans and foreign teams going together Mmm, no. Approaching players on contract is fine. Persuading them to do something that they don't want to do isn't, but there's nothing wrong with telling a player you're interested in them and giving them an offer. It's up to that player to make the decision, weigh what they're currently being given and what they're currently being offered. They can then decide what to do after their contract expires, or speak to their team themselves, contact the other team, and see if something between both teams can be done to terminate the contract prematurely. Why is that considered disgusting? | ||
RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
I'm hoping they will recover to be the top 3 teams in SC2 and I really hope SC2's fanbase will increase dramatically to make it a lot easier for pro gamers. | ||
dookudooku
255 Posts
On July 24 2011 06:19 Ashtamnire wrote: I would like to ask you, How long does that duty last? If Puma would have said to his coach "I want to join EG, but I want to carry out my duty for TSL" for how long should he stay on a team before it's acceptable for him to leave? As there was no contract with TSL, for how long should Puma have needed to stay with TSL by this East-Asian sense of duty to his '(parent/elder/teacher/mentor)' ? A month? A year? Rest of his life? What would you consider to be an acceptable timeframe? -- Also some people are implying that Puma owns something to TSL because they "took care of him" but surely everyone understands that while TSL was providing Puma with great environment to train, Puma himself was providing himself as a training partner to a team helping them grow into what they are today. Also I find it quite interesting that in a playxp interview Coach Lee tells Puma and I quote article "I even told him that there will be a lot of negative feedback surrounding this" and then he himself goes and makes majority of that negative feedback. To me it seems like Coach Lee would make a great Scumbag meme picture with text "Warns that there will be negative feedback - Creates all the negative feedback himself". No respect for that kind of behavior. Also this meeting that is going to happen, won't really matter much. Sure probably every good player who is active Now will be signed on a contract and maybe it even will mean that they won't be able to participate in International tournaments, who knows. But please do remember that Players are NEVER forced to sign any contract. Only reason why KESPA was able to force their players into ironclad contracts is the lack of true alternative to South Korean SC:BW scene. There is no SC:BW scene outside South Korea, so SC:BW players had no alternative than to accept whatever bullshit KESPA fed them. The way I see it, eSports (StarCraft 2) grew to what it was 2010/early 2011 in EU/US without any help from South Korean players. And by that I mean myriad of tournaments we have right now that do just fine without South Korean players. If there would be 0 players coming from GSL to MLG I would still watch it, because I like the game, not South Koreans. And I for one am Sure that we will grow no matter what South Korea decided to do. I'm sure hope that what happens in South Korea will have absolutely nothing to do with what happens outside South Korea. I'm glad you asked about the timeframe, because it me a chance to explain. Things aren't so black and white in Asian culture. Western thinking is about freedom, with laws to maintain order. Asians focus more on tradition and judgement. As an example, as a grown-up, if you do something that your parents look down upon, it's often preferable to lie to your parents rather than hurt their feelings. That doesn't mean honestly isn't important among Asians. And maybe you shouldn't have done what you did (something as simple as going to a bar can be viewed very negatively by parents). But the important thing is to realize what your action means to your parents, think about how they would feel, and respond correctly. It's a very delicate process that forces each individual to think long and hard. Puma's duty to his coach and TSL DOES NOT mean he can't leave. I even said so in my original post. Duty does that mean you have to follow everything your parent/teacher/elder says. Instead, it's about showing respect and a real, genuine care and concern. I'm sure Puma could have left it a way that without bringing shame. Coach Lee's response suggests that it was the manner in which he left that infuriated him. I think none of us know exactly what happened, so we can't be sure. Maybe the coach is crazy. But something simple as treating the team to a nice dinner makes a big difference. | ||
dookudooku
255 Posts
On July 24 2011 10:23 dookudooku wrote: I'm glad you asked about the timeframe. Things aren't so black and white in Asian culture. Western thinking is about freedom, with laws to maintain order. Asians focus more on tradition and judgement. As an example, as a grown-up, if you do something that your parents look down upon, it's often preferable to lie to your parents rather than hurt their feelings. That doesn't mean honestly isn't important among Asians. And maybe you shouldn't have done what you did (something as simple as going to a bar can be viewed very negatively by parents). But the important thing is to realize what your action means to your parents, think about how they would feel, and respond correctly. It's a very delicate process that forces each individual to think long and hard. Puma's duty to his coach and TSL DOES NOT mean he can't leave. I even said so in my original post. Duty DOES NOT mean you have to follow everything your parent/teacher/elder says. Instead, it's about showing respect and a real, genuine care and concern. And following what others say is part of that, but there is NO NUMBER or PERCENTAGE that can be given. I'm sure Puma could have left it a way that without bringing shame. Coach Lee's response suggests that it was the manner in which he left that infuriated him. I think none of us know exactly what happened, so we can't be sure. Maybe the coach is crazy. But something simple as treating the team to a nice dinner, or a gift, makes a big difference in these situations. Doh, meant to just edit the post. | ||
sjperera
Canada349 Posts
On July 24 2011 00:31 Technique wrote: Unless you want something back from that community at 1 point or another, which they do. So in conclusion, EG is just not very bright thinking they can snatch like that without it being a ''big deal''. Agree... you don't pull a @?!#$%? move cos you can... the future implications are important and even businesses like states have to take that into consideration and do all things diplomatically | ||
emsy
Australia34 Posts
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12oz
United States6 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1499 Posts
On July 24 2011 03:41 Shiori wrote: I guarantee I know more about Scoots's history than you ever will. EG has a reputation for underhanded tactics and rude management. Do you seriously think this is the first publicity stunt they've bungled? Your comments about Wall St actually prove my point (falsifying records to ensure a public image, etc). Sure name what you know about Scoot. Go ahead everything that you know is public knowledge. How is it underhanded/rude to go for a guy who is underpaid offer him more money to come to his team while he is technically a free agent. Happens in football all the time. Those companies on Wall Street didn't falsify records to ensure a good public image, they did it to screw people out of money (which btw when people get screwed out of money it winds up looking bad for the company that screwed them). Glad you're angry for whatever reason, but if a company is too cheap/dumb to have a decent contract with a player, then they need to accept the results. Also from TSL's manager(?) post I don't exactly think the team was being run well. | ||
DKo
United States187 Posts
Still waiting on EG's statement before I say anything more. | ||
SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
On July 24 2011 12:14 12oz wrote: i don't really understand all the eg hate. Puma made a decision, eg didn't force him to do anything he didn't want to. Lol, I agree that Puma was at fault, but if you think EG is innocent, your disillusion. According to your logic, if I offer money to a hitman to kill someone, I did nothing wrong. I didn't force him to kill the person, I just gave him the option. I know my example is an extreme example, but you can't say EG did nothing wrong. | ||
LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On July 23 2011 10:07 Sylvr wrote: You're assuming an awful lot about human nature. The stories and articles about people giving up opportunities and making sacrifices for their teams and friends make headlines and the Silver Screen because they aren't the norm. For every guy in a platoon that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, there are a dozen or more that didn't (and likely countless platoons where NOBODY did where everyone just got a body full of shrapnel). Where do I make a single assumption? My point is that it is reasonable for coach Lee to feel that way because I'm able to actually look at both sides of the situation. I never said "coach Lee is right and EG is evil." In fact, EG's position is also reasonable. The problem here is that people here are unable to properly examine the big picture to get a true perspective of the situation. The main source of confusion and drama is the misuse and misunderstanding of the term wrong. Both parties occupy reasonable positions because the sense of "wrong" felt here is not legalistic or codified wrong, but a more abstract and personal wrong that derives from each individual's personal ordering of values. So, for example: On July 23 2011 10:07 Sylvr wrote: 1. Was it wrong for Puma to leave TSL? My answer is no. There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation. If you find a better job, nobody can blame you for taking it, even if you've been with your current company for years. It's not betrayal, and that has nothing to do with contracts. You can be friends with people without being on the same team. Your personal values would note that "There is nothing wrong with trying to better your own situation." Others would feel that certain values transcend this demand for personal improvement, saying that loyalty comes first. You would argue that is wrong, but others would argue that it is right. The point is that either side can have arguments made to logically support them, making both positions tenable as reasonable ones. EG did not any legal contract or law, but it depends upon each individual's perspective on respect/courtesy regarding teams to influence whether or not they committed that more personal "wrong" in terms of respect. On July 23 2011 10:07 Sylvr wrote: 4. Is TSL's situation a sad sad story? It sure is. Losing players left and right. Having trouble keeping sponsors and quickly running out of money. Your first big tournament result is followed by some unfortunate news. It's like they were finally on an upswing, and they hit a brick wall. It really is tragic, but one thing I know is that the source of their misfortune is not Puma, and it isn't EG. Lee's coaching has been called into question. TSL's skill level may be to blame. Perhaps it's the Korean SC2 scene in general that is the core of their problems. Or maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about. Coach Lee and TSL are doing an excellent job of painting themselves as the victims, and maybe they think they are, but when I see stories of the players giving back their salaries and stipends to help a faltering team, I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside, and I don't see heroes in the making; I see naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults who have to be bailed out by their charges. You yourself concede that their financial issues may be the product of "maybe a hundred other things that none of us have any clue about," yet you simultaneously go on to condemn their actions as "naive kids who don't know the value of themselves and their money, and incompetent adults"? Really? How can a person be incompetent when you yourself admit to not knowing the source of their troubles? Were hundreds of ordinary Americans incompetent because they were poor in the Great Depression? Before you come back claiming that we don't know if TSL is having problems because of the Scene/economy - that's my point, we don't know, so it would be stupid to judge them for being at fault for a problem that you don't understand. | ||
jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On July 24 2011 13:04 SoKHo wrote: Lol, I agree that Puma was at fault, but if you think EG is innocent, your disillusion. According to your logic, if I offer money to a hitman to kill someone, I did nothing wrong. I didn't force him to kill the person, I just gave him the option. I know my example is an extreme example, but you can't say EG did nothing wrong. Yeah thats just a terrible example because offering someone money to kill someone is well, wrong. Offering someone money to join your team isn't wrong. | ||
originalred04
United States53 Posts
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Sky0
United States214 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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Dantat
170 Posts
On July 24 2011 16:08 originalred04 wrote: Most of you people are stupid, the goal of these teams is to make money and put together the best team they can. He had no contract why would EG talk to TSL management? Puma mad a decision to make more money and have more exposure...what an idiot....how dare he make a decision that makes him more money and furthers along his career! What a bunch of hypocrites,posting all their garbage, shut up and think before you post. Congrats to Puma and EG, best of luck to TSL. Clearly they need to get their crap together, they have lost 4 of their best players. Oh the irony. If you are unable to reason out anything less superficial, you should refrain from insulting others. | ||
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