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I don't think we should take these stats too seriously. The players haven't adapted to the patch yet and you should be taking reference from the actual games. Creatorprime + Genius and even whitera today has shown that protoss can beat terran easily with their new builds. Zerg is over-reacting to the infestor patch and things will be back to normal soon. The right period that we should look at the winrates should be October/November. If terran increases its win rate, then its disturbing. But i believe PvT and ZvT winrates should climb back up.
And we should look at korean stats, not international stats.
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On October 08 2011 05:21 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 03:50 CuHz wrote: if i could be able to start over; i wish i started off picking terran in BW + sc2. I sometimes offrace as terran and i dont even know their hot keys and i can easily beat top master player protsses =X. I think every protoss feels that way.
Don't forget that there are alot of terrans I know which defeat top terran players with protoss without even trying...
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On October 09 2011 01:19 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 05:21 Gatored wrote:On October 08 2011 03:50 CuHz wrote: if i could be able to start over; i wish i started off picking terran in BW + sc2. I sometimes offrace as terran and i dont even know their hot keys and i can easily beat top master player protsses =X. I think every protoss feels that way. Don't forget that there are alot of terrans I know which defeat top terran players with protoss without even trying...
replay or it didn't happen
we have seen mc off racing as terran and defeating people easily.
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I was going to say I don't understand why PvT was the QQ hot point but then I realized at least Zerg was winning over Protoss.
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On October 07 2011 22:44 tnud wrote:Calm the **** down. It'll be alright EDIT: Should be noted that the map pool rules a lot of the balance in BW.
Yeah people overreact to these statistics. OMG imba!!!
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I hope Blizzard doesn't wait for HOTS to do something about this. This is hurting the game, even though many people prefer to think that there is no problem.
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On October 08 2011 05:18 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 03:53 windsupernova wrote:On October 08 2011 02:19 Sabu113 wrote:On October 08 2011 01:56 MilesTeg wrote: Well, I still think using your brain > any stat. I don't think TvZ favours Terran that much and I think PvZ favours Protoss.
But even if you only look at stats it's not that bad, people overreact as usual. Tell me the race of the person likely to win IPL, MLG (top 3), and the next 2-3 GSLs (caveated if there's another patch). Blizzcon too though I would be content with throwing that tournament out. yeah lets not take player skill into account. GSL will probably will be MVP, IPL dunno maybe MC? He looked really good yesterday. + Show Spoiler + He beat 1 (one!!) Korean Terran!!!!!!
Blizzcon will prob be MVP or Nestea(prob MVP because he has a good record against the Tea) GSL if MVP is still as dominant as he is will prob go to Terran. But thats because MVP is a fucking Beast. But hey lets look at championships in BW! OSL # of champions 14 T(!!!) 10 Zerg 9 P Well... maybe MSL is more balanced 12 T 10 Z 4 P ... Welp I guess BW is a broken game. Someone tell Flash that he is being carried by his race. Did I make a valid point? No! The thing is that balance is something much more complicated that watching the # of champions of each race.But its obvious that you have your mind set so I guess I am just wasting time. I am not even saying the game is balanced but basing your conclusions based on solely stuff as winrates(those can change based on the strategies used, look at how TvZ evolved through the years in BW) or # of championships is just... moronic. Looking at just champions is problematic of course. But look at these two charts Now realize that the Sc2 has almost 9000 more games factored in it's graph than BW's. In BW's sample of 15959 games every race takes turns going from top to bottom, and at many points every race is within 3% of each other. Now look at Sc2's graph of 25,187 games. in only two places I see the races reach within 3% for all three. (Oct 2010, and June 2011) Also notice that Terran is on top the entire length of the graph. Also look at the individual matchups. In BW we see some drastic swings, but every race takes turns above and below the 50% mark in every matchup. Now look at Sc2's matchups. PvZ is the only matchup where there is change in dominance. Conclusion = BW has better balance
You do realize that the BW chart is aprox 3 years right?
I am just saying that we shouldn´t take conclusions based off 1 year.
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At the people discussing the lack of a dominant protoss as evidence that protoss is UP. That argument is flawed because there has never been a protoss who dominated his mirror like Nestea and MVP dominate their mirrors (especially Nestea). MC was close for a while but lately has fallen off a cliff in PvP. Losing to Hongun, and Alicia right next to each other and now losing to some random toss. He also lost a PvP in the recent korean weekly I'm pretty sure or at the very least it was really close can't remember the games exactly.
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Terran has always been on top.
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On October 09 2011 13:16 JJH777 wrote: At the people discussing the lack of a dominant protoss as evidence that protoss is UP. That argument is flawed because there has never been a protoss who dominated his mirror like Nestea and MVP dominate their mirrors (especially Nestea). MC was close for a while but lately has fallen off a cliff in PvP. Losing to Hongun, and Alicia right next to each other and now losing to some random toss. He also lost a PvP in the recent korean weekly I'm pretty sure or at the very least it was really close can't remember the games exactly.
Interesting point.
Here's something I think you should consider. Because of the warp in mechanic, I think PvP is fundamentally different than the other mirrors. In ZvZ and TvT, because of the defender's advantage, rushes are weaker and drawing out the game is easier, giving players more opportunity to showcase their skill. This is because units come from production buildings.
However, in PvP, units can come from pylons. I believe this means we will never see a Protoss player be as dominant in his mirror matchup as the best Zerg and Terran players are.
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On October 09 2011 01:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 01:19 Snowbear wrote:On October 08 2011 05:21 Gatored wrote:On October 08 2011 03:50 CuHz wrote: if i could be able to start over; i wish i started off picking terran in BW + sc2. I sometimes offrace as terran and i dont even know their hot keys and i can easily beat top master player protsses =X. I think every protoss feels that way. Don't forget that there are alot of terrans I know which defeat top terran players with protoss without even trying... replay or it didn't happen we have seen mc off racing as terran and defeating people easily. MKP(as protoss) vs slayersMMA, At the last GSL final.
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On October 09 2011 13:39 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 01:24 freetgy wrote:On October 09 2011 01:19 Snowbear wrote:On October 08 2011 05:21 Gatored wrote:On October 08 2011 03:50 CuHz wrote: if i could be able to start over; i wish i started off picking terran in BW + sc2. I sometimes offrace as terran and i dont even know their hot keys and i can easily beat top master player protsses =X. I think every protoss feels that way. Don't forget that there are alot of terrans I know which defeat top terran players with protoss without even trying... replay or it didn't happen we have seen mc off racing as terran and defeating people easily. MKP(as protoss) vs slayersMMA, At the last GSL final.
Rofl those were joke games...
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The ZvT stats were actually very surprising to me. I thought that ZvT was supposed to be the most balanced non-mirror matchup. I guess not.
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zvt still being awesome haha ;D
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You should post graphs to scale, where 0% is the bottom and 100% is the top, would give people a much better sense of what the balance actually is.
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On October 09 2011 01:19 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 05:21 Gatored wrote:On October 08 2011 03:50 CuHz wrote: if i could be able to start over; i wish i started off picking terran in BW + sc2. I sometimes offrace as terran and i dont even know their hot keys and i can easily beat top master player protsses =X. I think every protoss feels that way. Don't forget that there are alot of terrans I know which defeat top terran players with protoss without even trying... Anecdotal evidence, how wonderful. When statistics show you the truth, lean back on anecdotes!
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On October 09 2011 13:39 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 01:24 freetgy wrote:On October 09 2011 01:19 Snowbear wrote:On October 08 2011 05:21 Gatored wrote:On October 08 2011 03:50 CuHz wrote: if i could be able to start over; i wish i started off picking terran in BW + sc2. I sometimes offrace as terran and i dont even know their hot keys and i can easily beat top master player protsses =X. I think every protoss feels that way. Don't forget that there are alot of terrans I know which defeat top terran players with protoss without even trying... replay or it didn't happen we have seen mc off racing as terran and defeating people easily. MKP(as protoss) vs slayersMMA, At the last GSL final. You mean the game no one cared about? It was a showmatch where they did retarded builds. That same night Nestea did early 3 base on Antiga with the 3rd being the gold. Yeah, everyone, even the casters knew that people didn't take it seriously.
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Is there a Korean graph? These stats seem kinda distorted because of Koreans coming over and beating everyone regardless of whatever race they play, well, maybe except for one. ><"
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that Terran is the dominant race. They've been holding a considerable win rate margin over Zerg and a slight margin over Protoss. Also PvZ has also been favoring the Zerg these past months.
Still I'd like to see a Korean graph where the highest skill level is right now.
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I wish I had that kind of win percentage against P T_T. I kind of hoped that since the patch the winrate for P in PvZ would increase so I could whine about it some more, but again I'm shown with percentages that say 'nope, you just suck a lot'.
To be fair, the ZvT probably is because of some random metagame shift at the Terran spectrum and the Zergs just haven't adapted to it. I'm pretty confident in that match up being rather balanced as long as the game stabilizes some more.
On October 09 2011 15:23 K3Nyy wrote: Is there a Korean graph? These stats seem kinda distorted because of Koreans coming over and beating everyone regardless of whatever race they play, well, maybe except for one. ><"
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that Terran is the dominant race. They've been holding a considerable win rate margin over Zerg and a slight margin over Protoss. Also PvZ has also been favoring the Zerg these past months.
Still I'd like to see a Korean graph where the highest skill level is right now.
I don't think a Korean graph gives us a lot of exciting data. Considering that most of the top koreans are Terran they will get the most air time on the GSL, GSTL and KotH korea ( perhaps the latter one is more balanced race wise, but I don't think they are held into account. ) and because of that the sample size of Zerg vs Protoss would be too small to pick any balance out of it.
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On October 09 2011 15:23 Chaosvuistje wrote:I wish I had that kind of win percentage against P T_T. I kind of hoped that since the patch the winrate for P in PvZ would increase so I could whine about it some more, but again I'm shown with percentages that say 'nope, you just suck a lot'. To be fair, the ZvT probably is because of some random metagame shift at the Terran spectrum and the Zergs just haven't adapted to it. I'm pretty confident in that match up being rather balanced as long as the game stabilizes some more. Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 15:23 K3Nyy wrote: Is there a Korean graph? These stats seem kinda distorted because of Koreans coming over and beating everyone regardless of whatever race they play, well, maybe except for one. ><"
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that Terran is the dominant race. They've been holding a considerable win rate margin over Zerg and a slight margin over Protoss. Also PvZ has also been favoring the Zerg these past months.
Still I'd like to see a Korean graph where the highest skill level is right now. I don't think a Korean graph gives us a lot of exciting data. Considering that most of the top koreans are Terran they will get the most air time on the GSL, GSTL and KotH korea ( perhaps the latter one is more balanced race wise, but I don't think they are held into account. ) and because of that the sample size of Zerg vs Protoss would be too small to pick any balance out of it.
A few hundred games a month could show us a trend.
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