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On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote: Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used...
You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss.
the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that.
You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in.
On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote: Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown?
actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on.
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On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote: [quote]
yes it did,
after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different.
On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off.
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote: [quote]
yes it did,
after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different.
On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off.
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on.
2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server.
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On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote: [quote]
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers.
Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time.
If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on.
it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote: [quote]
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers.
Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time.
If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on.
it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. 2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server.
I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it?
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On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote: Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units.
I'm not going into this whinefest, but you know that Protoss don't have infinite gaz (don't talk about late game you rarely have 8 or 10 gaz in a game) so you can't keep reinforcing ht, especially when you need to reinforce you deathball as well (Protoss units cost a lot of gaz, and hts alone are not going to win the game).
Moreover, you say it, like a storm would destroy every terran unit in the map. You can dodge storm, spread your army etc... Maybe KA is a bit imbalanced (I don't know I'm not a pro or David Kim) but KA doesn't win game the way you describe it.
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On October 12 2011 07:17 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote: [quote] How can you even say such a thing?
First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph?
Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote: [quote] How can you even say such a thing?
First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph?
Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. 2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server. I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it?
It hits before HT's with storm, or 2x Collosus (from 2 base). It will lose to 1/2gate Robo -> Nexus -> Collosus rush, but you can usually kill 1gate Robo FE with 2rax opening (which is a good opening for 2-ghost timing).
It's similar to 2x medivac poke/drop, scan before you engage, if he's sentry heavy you can probably just win the game.
I think it went out of favour, since it's as easy to retreat if he's gone quick charge, or you get flanked (stim yourself to death).
Also the lack of 8:00 medivacs means he doesnt need to keep some stalkers @ main to protect from drop when you move out with 2-ghost.
Edit: I'm obviously a P player, and I don't know the exact BO, just that it can hit between 8:30 to 9:30 ish. Haven't seen it in a while on KR server myself.
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On October 12 2011 07:22 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:17 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote: [quote]
Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed.
Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you.
You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote: [quote]
Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed.
Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you.
You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. 2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server. I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it? It hits before HT's with storm, or 2x Collosus (from 2 base). It will lose to 1/2gate Robo -> Nexus -> Collosus rush, but you can usually kill 1gate Robo FE with 2rax opening (which is a good opening for 2-ghost timing). It's similar to 2x medivac poke/drop, scan before you engage, if he's sentry heavy you can probably just win the game. I think it went out of favour, since it's as easy to retreat if he's gone quick charge, or you get flanked (stim yourself to death). Also the lack of 8:00 medivacs means he doesnt need to keep some stalkers @ main to protect from drop when you move out with 2-ghost. Edit: I'm obviously a P player, and I don't know the exact BO, just that it can hit between 8:30 to 9:30 ish. Haven't seen it in a while on KR server myself.
Well I personally still think it's all in, because if the protoss defends the push and gets 4-5 collossus out there is absolutely nothing you can do. no medivacs, no vikings. I find it really hard to not call it an all-in when you are essentially dead if it fails. Know what I mean?
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ipl3 final speaks for it self there is not such dis balance as people are saying it is all about skills and practice. It is easier to blame than work on what is wrong. if the dis balance were so big blizzard would do something about it. please think
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On October 12 2011 07:25 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:22 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:17 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote: [quote]
how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs!
This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then.
Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.!
QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote: [quote]
how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs!
This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then.
Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.!
QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. 2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server. I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it? It hits before HT's with storm, or 2x Collosus (from 2 base). It will lose to 1/2gate Robo -> Nexus -> Collosus rush, but you can usually kill 1gate Robo FE with 2rax opening (which is a good opening for 2-ghost timing). It's similar to 2x medivac poke/drop, scan before you engage, if he's sentry heavy you can probably just win the game. I think it went out of favour, since it's as easy to retreat if he's gone quick charge, or you get flanked (stim yourself to death). Also the lack of 8:00 medivacs means he doesnt need to keep some stalkers @ main to protect from drop when you move out with 2-ghost. Edit: I'm obviously a P player, and I don't know the exact BO, just that it can hit between 8:30 to 9:30 ish. Haven't seen it in a while on KR server myself. Well I personally still think it's all in, because if the protoss defends the push and gets 4-5 collossus out there is absolutely nothing you can do. no medivacs, no vikings. I find it really hard to not call it an all-in when you are essentially dead if it fails. Know what I mean?
Saying it is an all-in does nothing about how good the strategy is, that like saying 1-1-1 is an all-in. sure it is doesn't mean it is good as hell.
And as we all know, terran is never all-in
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On October 12 2011 07:25 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:22 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:17 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote: [quote]
how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs!
This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then.
Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.!
QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote: [quote]
how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs!
This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then.
Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.!
QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. 2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server. I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it? It hits before HT's with storm, or 2x Collosus (from 2 base). It will lose to 1/2gate Robo -> Nexus -> Collosus rush, but you can usually kill 1gate Robo FE with 2rax opening (which is a good opening for 2-ghost timing). It's similar to 2x medivac poke/drop, scan before you engage, if he's sentry heavy you can probably just win the game. I think it went out of favour, since it's as easy to retreat if he's gone quick charge, or you get flanked (stim yourself to death). Also the lack of 8:00 medivacs means he doesnt need to keep some stalkers @ main to protect from drop when you move out with 2-ghost. Edit: I'm obviously a P player, and I don't know the exact BO, just that it can hit between 8:30 to 9:30 ish. Haven't seen it in a while on KR server myself. Well I personally still think it's all in, because if the protoss defends the push and gets 4-5 collossus out there is absolutely nothing you can do. no medivacs, no vikings. I find it really hard to not call it an all-in when you are essentially dead if it fails. Know what I mean?
How are you dead if it fails? It's exactly the same as a medivac-poke. Your Starport is completed by the time you hit the P's base. You're in a position to build reactor'd vikings.
When you poke at 9:00~ with 2 medivacs, you'll kill him if he rushed collosus, and if he's not, you can THEN start making vikings..... you won't have any vikings right then.
Totally the same as arriving @ 9:30 with 2 medivacs, finding out he's rushing storm (kill him), or he's not rushing it, go home, get ghosts.....
The only difference is you can't drop-harass as you do your first push.
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On October 12 2011 07:34 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:25 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:22 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:17 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote: [quote]
QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously.
then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote: [quote]
QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously.
then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. 2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server. I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it? It hits before HT's with storm, or 2x Collosus (from 2 base). It will lose to 1/2gate Robo -> Nexus -> Collosus rush, but you can usually kill 1gate Robo FE with 2rax opening (which is a good opening for 2-ghost timing). It's similar to 2x medivac poke/drop, scan before you engage, if he's sentry heavy you can probably just win the game. I think it went out of favour, since it's as easy to retreat if he's gone quick charge, or you get flanked (stim yourself to death). Also the lack of 8:00 medivacs means he doesnt need to keep some stalkers @ main to protect from drop when you move out with 2-ghost. Edit: I'm obviously a P player, and I don't know the exact BO, just that it can hit between 8:30 to 9:30 ish. Haven't seen it in a while on KR server myself. Well I personally still think it's all in, because if the protoss defends the push and gets 4-5 collossus out there is absolutely nothing you can do. no medivacs, no vikings. I find it really hard to not call it an all-in when you are essentially dead if it fails. Know what I mean? How are you dead if it fails? It's exactly the same as a medivac-poke. Your Starport is completed by the time you hit the P's base. You're in a position to build reactor'd vikings. When you poke at 9:00~ with 2 medivacs, you'll kill him if he rushed collosus, and if he's not, you can THEN start making vikings..... you won't have any vikings right then. Totally the same as arriving @ 9:30 with 2 medivacs, finding out he's rushing storm (kill him), or he's not rushing it, go home, get ghosts..... The only difference is you can't drop-harass as you to your first push.
I want to see a build order for that please. I just think it's nonsensical to get ghosts instead of medivacs, unless he has mass sentry of course, but that's a different story. I wouldn't actually want to use this build as a standard tvp build, it seems really bad against quick collossus and you can easily die to overstimming, like you said. And I'm sure it's very easy to scout the build and if the toss sees you are going ghosts and not medivac he can just use his entire army to defend the push since he doesn't have to fear any drops at all.
So yeah I can kind of understand why koreans are not using the build anymore. I didn't actually know that you get a starport behind that aswell, but it seems really counter intuitive, this build is clearly designed to deal damage, but the fact that you build a starport behind it indicates that you are setting up for a longer game, in that case however it would make more sense to go for medivac first because you can drop and harrass, whereas this seems more like a "i hope i can do some damage" attack.
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one of the biggest problem i have with HT is Ghost, yea they need longer to spawn, but they get their spells after time and dont need to research EMP same with infestor
why not do the same with HT just Remove the strom upgrade thats 200/200 less and dunno 90? seconds research time
that makes HT openings way more vaiable, because at the moment you cant face a terran mid to lategame witheout AOE, how do you get AOE HT or Colo HT is to hard to get so colosi.
just my opinion but i guess it will never cange
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On October 12 2011 07:42 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:34 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:25 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:22 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:17 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote: [quote] then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote: [quote] then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. 2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server. I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it? It hits before HT's with storm, or 2x Collosus (from 2 base). It will lose to 1/2gate Robo -> Nexus -> Collosus rush, but you can usually kill 1gate Robo FE with 2rax opening (which is a good opening for 2-ghost timing). It's similar to 2x medivac poke/drop, scan before you engage, if he's sentry heavy you can probably just win the game. I think it went out of favour, since it's as easy to retreat if he's gone quick charge, or you get flanked (stim yourself to death). Also the lack of 8:00 medivacs means he doesnt need to keep some stalkers @ main to protect from drop when you move out with 2-ghost. Edit: I'm obviously a P player, and I don't know the exact BO, just that it can hit between 8:30 to 9:30 ish. Haven't seen it in a while on KR server myself. Well I personally still think it's all in, because if the protoss defends the push and gets 4-5 collossus out there is absolutely nothing you can do. no medivacs, no vikings. I find it really hard to not call it an all-in when you are essentially dead if it fails. Know what I mean? How are you dead if it fails? It's exactly the same as a medivac-poke. Your Starport is completed by the time you hit the P's base. You're in a position to build reactor'd vikings. When you poke at 9:00~ with 2 medivacs, you'll kill him if he rushed collosus, and if he's not, you can THEN start making vikings..... you won't have any vikings right then. Totally the same as arriving @ 9:30 with 2 medivacs, finding out he's rushing storm (kill him), or he's not rushing it, go home, get ghosts..... The only difference is you can't drop-harass as you to your first push. I want to see a build order for that please. I just think it's nonsensical to get ghosts instead of medivacs, unless he has mass sentry of course, but that's a different story. I wouldn't actually want to use this build as a standard tvp build, it seems really bad against quick collossus and you can easily die to overstimming, like you said. And I'm sure it's very easy to scout the build and if the toss sees you are going ghosts and not medivac he can just use his entire army to defend the push since he doesn't have to fear any drops at all. So yeah I can kind of understand why koreans are not using the build anymore. I didn't actually know that you get a starport behind that aswell, but it seems really counter intuitive, this build is clearly designed to deal damage, but the fact that you build a starport behind it indicates that you are setting up for a longer game, in that case however it would make more sense to go for medivac first because you can drop and harrass, whereas this seems more like a "i hope i can do some damage" attack.
Here's a thread discussing how to beat it. It's from August.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251189
I find it surprising you're a high masters Terran player, and you've not heard/used/seen it? It was all the rage at one of the previous MLGs.
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On October 12 2011 00:06 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 00:01 icarly wrote:On October 11 2011 23:59 Ryndika wrote:On October 11 2011 20:38 doko100 wrote: It's funny that everyone thinks T is OP. In pro play they maybe are,but for casual players (everything below grandmaster) Terran is the weakest race, you can go to sc2ranks and look at the average points per player or wins/player and you will see that terran is far worse than zerg or protoss in the lower leagues. Nerfing terran much more would break the game for casual terran players even more, yes it would help pro players but blizzard also has to focus on the casuals. Terran has already gone from the most played race to the least played race, and it definitely isn't in blizzard's interest that terran players quit the game simply because their race is so bad at casual level. terran is only really imba if you have the macro and micro of a mvp. It's only your wall of text opinion, but why should blizz balance sc2 over casuals? You shuld be able to have fun even in imbalanced game... They nerfed reapers and void rays because they apparently made casual games unplayable... Fixed that for you. I highly doubt they were UNPLAYABLE, just not as fun I suspect. But yes, sometimes Blizzard does have to think about casual players, but if they want it to become a really successful E-sport, they're going to have to make some sacrifices when it comes to casuals.
You realize almost all of the money Blizzard makes form this game comes from sales to casual players right?
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On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote: [quote]
yes it did,
after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different.
On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off.
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote: [quote]
yes it did,
after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different.
On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off.
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on.
Here's how I see it. I don't exactly understand what you're saying, so please correct me.
First, let me give you some times from liquipedia.
Marine: 25 build time. Marauder: 30 build time. Ghost: 40 build time.
Zealot: 38 cooldown. Stalker: 42 cooldown. Sentry: 37 cooldown. HT: 55 cooldown.
To make my example simple, lets say you and me are playing a bronze league PvT, where I have warp gate, and you have one barracks. I plan on going stalker high templar, you plan on going marauder ghost.
Your ghost building isn't done, so you start a marauder. My templar archives isn't done, so I start a stalker. Interestingly, after 5 seconds, I have a stalker and you have nothing. However, after 30 seconds, you have a marauder and I still only have the stalker.
I still have 12 seconds left on cooldown, and you start another maruader. Now, at 42 seconds since you started your first marauder, my cooldown is done, and at 47 seconds I have 2 stalkers and you have one marauder. Then, at 1 minute you have 2 marauders and I have 2 stalker. What's more, I have to wait until 1 minute 24 until I can start warping in stalker number 3, and until 1 minute 29 until I get it.
Let's do one more. Since I started warping in my stalker at 1 minute 24, I have to wait until 2 minutes 6 seconds to start warping in stalker 4, and finally I get the stalker at 2 minutes 11 seconds. Let's use numbers to make this clear.
At 0:00 P: warpgate T: Barracks At 0:05 P: stalker T: Nothing At 0:30 P: stalker T: marauder (25 second difference). At 0:47 P: 2 stalker T: marauder At 1:00 P: 2 stalker T: 2 marauder (13 second difference) At 1:29 P: 3 stalker T: 2 marauder At 1:30 P: 3 stalker T: 3 marauder (1 second difference) At 2:00 P 3 stalker T FOUR MARAUDERS At 2:11 P 4 stalkers T: 4 marauders (-11 seconds).
Now lets talker about templar and ghost. Ghosts build in 40 seconds. Templars build in 55. That's a difference of 15 seconds. The difference between Stalker and Marauder was only 12. So, what you'll see with templar ghost production will mirror the analysis done above, except Ghosts will "catch up" to the templar production even faster because of the greater time differential between Ghosts and Templar.
Thus, the difference doesn't get bigger between cycles, it gets smaller.
Now, what does this mean for a real game? After all, T will have more than 1 barracks with a tech lab, and P will have more than one gate. Well, the limiting factor for P warping in templars is gas. So what you should really compare is barracks with tech labs for T and gateways which Toss has enough to build HT from.
Basically, if T has more tech lab barracks than P has gas supported gateways then over time ghost production will get pretty far ahead of templar production... eh. Not too much you can get from that.
Also, obviously I can chrono boost and you get to mule, which complicates things further.
Anyways, you said the difference got bigger, I think it gets smaller. But I ain't great with math. Care to explain?
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oh i always liked the double nuke build . About this double ghost build it was to easily scouted and the toss could punish it in various ways. You could put it on par with the raven push, you have to get the raven to pdd at the toss home ramp to do nice damage.
for the poster above: Techlab barracks 200/25 warpgate 150. So you have 4 gates and the terran 3 baracks with labs. And well building stalkers against marauders, disqualified. Just don't be so black and white when going into theory, you have to think about every aspect. (i didn't here, for me the ghost is at a small advantage but thats why his cost is higher and he is more specialized)
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On October 12 2011 07:57 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote: [quote]
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers.
Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time.
If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on.
it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote: [quote]
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers.
Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time.
If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on.
it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. Here's how I see it. I don't exactly understand what you're saying, so please correct me. First, let me give you some times from liquipedia. Marine: 25 build time. Marauder: 30 build time. Ghost: 40 build time. Zealot: 38 cooldown. Stalker: 42 cooldown. Sentry: 37 cooldown. HT: 55 cooldown. To make my example simple, lets say you and me are playing a bronze league PvT, where I have warp gate, and you have one barracks. I plan on going stalker high templar, you plan on going marauder ghost. Your ghost building isn't done, so you start a marauder. My templar archives isn't done, so I start a stalker. Interestingly, after 5 seconds, I have a stalker and you have nothing. However, after 30 seconds, you have a marauder and I still only have the stalker. I still have 12 seconds left on cooldown, and you start another maruader. Now, at 42 seconds since you started your first marauder, my cooldown is done, and at 47 seconds I have 2 stalkers and you have one marauder. Then, at 1 minute you have 2 marauders and I have 2 stalker. What's more, I have to wait until 1 minute 24 until I can start warping in stalker number 3, and until 1 minute 29 until I get it. Let's do one more. Since I started warping in my stalker at 1 minute 24, I have to wait until 2 minutes 6 seconds to start warping in stalker 4, and finally I get the stalker at 2 minutes 11 seconds. Let's use numbers to make this clear. At 0:00 P: warpgate T: Barracks At 0:05 P: stalker T: Nothing At 0:30 P: stalker T: marauder (25 second difference). At 0:47 P: 2 stalker T: marauder At 1:00 P: 2 stalker T: 2 marauder (13 second difference) At 1:29 P: 3 stalker T: 2 marauder At 1:30 P: 3 stalker T: 3 marauder (1 second difference) At 2:00 P 3 stalker T FOUR MARAUDERSAt 2:11 P 4 stalkers T: 4 marauders (-11 seconds). Now lets talker about templar and ghost. Ghosts build in 40 seconds. Templars build in 55. That's a difference of 15 seconds. The difference between Stalker and Marauder was only 12. So, what you'll see with templar ghost production will mirror the analysis done above, except Ghosts will "catch up" to the templar production even faster because of the greater time differential between Ghosts and Templar. Thus, the difference doesn't get bigger between cycles, it gets smaller. Now, what does this mean for a real game? After all, T will have more than 1 barracks with a tech lab, and P will have more than one gate. Well, the limiting factor for P warping in templars is gas. So what you should really compare is barracks with tech labs for T and gateways which Toss has enough to build HT from. Basically, if T has more tech lab barracks than P has gas supported gateways then over time ghost production will get pretty far ahead of templar production... eh. Not too much you can get from that. Also, obviously I can chrono boost and you get to mule, which complicates things further. Anyways, you said the difference got bigger, I think it gets smaller. But I ain't great with math. Care to explain?
Sweet it works for 1 gate vs 1 raxx. Please enlighten me when its 8 gate vs 3-4 raxx. Does it still add up? 16 vs at best 8 sounds fair. Because when you get the units doesn't matter, it's the fact that we can make more quicker down the line. Since when do Terran have same production as protoss? That's good.
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On October 12 2011 08:06 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:57 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote: [quote] How can you even say such a thing?
First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph?
Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote: [quote] How can you even say such a thing?
First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph?
Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. Here's how I see it. I don't exactly understand what you're saying, so please correct me. First, let me give you some times from liquipedia. Marine: 25 build time. Marauder: 30 build time. Ghost: 40 build time. Zealot: 38 cooldown. Stalker: 42 cooldown. Sentry: 37 cooldown. HT: 55 cooldown. To make my example simple, lets say you and me are playing a bronze league PvT, where I have warp gate, and you have one barracks. I plan on going stalker high templar, you plan on going marauder ghost. Your ghost building isn't done, so you start a marauder. My templar archives isn't done, so I start a stalker. Interestingly, after 5 seconds, I have a stalker and you have nothing. However, after 30 seconds, you have a marauder and I still only have the stalker. I still have 12 seconds left on cooldown, and you start another maruader. Now, at 42 seconds since you started your first marauder, my cooldown is done, and at 47 seconds I have 2 stalkers and you have one marauder. Then, at 1 minute you have 2 marauders and I have 2 stalker. What's more, I have to wait until 1 minute 24 until I can start warping in stalker number 3, and until 1 minute 29 until I get it. Let's do one more. Since I started warping in my stalker at 1 minute 24, I have to wait until 2 minutes 6 seconds to start warping in stalker 4, and finally I get the stalker at 2 minutes 11 seconds. Let's use numbers to make this clear. At 0:00 P: warpgate T: Barracks At 0:05 P: stalker T: Nothing At 0:30 P: stalker T: marauder (25 second difference). At 0:47 P: 2 stalker T: marauder At 1:00 P: 2 stalker T: 2 marauder (13 second difference) At 1:29 P: 3 stalker T: 2 marauder At 1:30 P: 3 stalker T: 3 marauder (1 second difference) At 2:00 P 3 stalker T FOUR MARAUDERSAt 2:11 P 4 stalkers T: 4 marauders (-11 seconds). Now lets talker about templar and ghost. Ghosts build in 40 seconds. Templars build in 55. That's a difference of 15 seconds. The difference between Stalker and Marauder was only 12. So, what you'll see with templar ghost production will mirror the analysis done above, except Ghosts will "catch up" to the templar production even faster because of the greater time differential between Ghosts and Templar. Thus, the difference doesn't get bigger between cycles, it gets smaller. Now, what does this mean for a real game? After all, T will have more than 1 barracks with a tech lab, and P will have more than one gate. Well, the limiting factor for P warping in templars is gas. So what you should really compare is barracks with tech labs for T and gateways which Toss has enough to build HT from. Basically, if T has more tech lab barracks than P has gas supported gateways then over time ghost production will get pretty far ahead of templar production... eh. Not too much you can get from that. Also, obviously I can chrono boost and you get to mule, which complicates things further. Anyways, you said the difference got bigger, I think it gets smaller. But I ain't great with math. Care to explain? Sweet it works for 1 gate vs 1 raxx. Please enlighten me when its 8 gate vs 3-4 raxx. Does it still add up? 16 vs at best 8 sounds fair. Because when you get the units doesn't matter, it's the fact that we can make more quicker down the line. Since when do Terran have same production as protoss? That's good. It's your own fault if you don't build enough rax, not balance's fault. If the toss has enough money to get 8 gates up, you have enough to get 2 rax with reactor and 4 rax with tech lab.
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On October 12 2011 08:06 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 07:57 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote: [quote] How can you even say such a thing?
First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph?
Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes. how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used... You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss. the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that. You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in. On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote: [quote] How can you even say such a thing?
First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph?
Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units. Warpgate cooldown? actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on. Here's how I see it. I don't exactly understand what you're saying, so please correct me. First, let me give you some times from liquipedia. Marine: 25 build time. Marauder: 30 build time. Ghost: 40 build time. Zealot: 38 cooldown. Stalker: 42 cooldown. Sentry: 37 cooldown. HT: 55 cooldown. To make my example simple, lets say you and me are playing a bronze league PvT, where I have warp gate, and you have one barracks. I plan on going stalker high templar, you plan on going marauder ghost. Your ghost building isn't done, so you start a marauder. My templar archives isn't done, so I start a stalker. Interestingly, after 5 seconds, I have a stalker and you have nothing. However, after 30 seconds, you have a marauder and I still only have the stalker. I still have 12 seconds left on cooldown, and you start another maruader. Now, at 42 seconds since you started your first marauder, my cooldown is done, and at 47 seconds I have 2 stalkers and you have one marauder. Then, at 1 minute you have 2 marauders and I have 2 stalker. What's more, I have to wait until 1 minute 24 until I can start warping in stalker number 3, and until 1 minute 29 until I get it. Let's do one more. Since I started warping in my stalker at 1 minute 24, I have to wait until 2 minutes 6 seconds to start warping in stalker 4, and finally I get the stalker at 2 minutes 11 seconds. Let's use numbers to make this clear. At 0:00 P: warpgate T: Barracks At 0:05 P: stalker T: Nothing At 0:30 P: stalker T: marauder (25 second difference). At 0:47 P: 2 stalker T: marauder At 1:00 P: 2 stalker T: 2 marauder (13 second difference) At 1:29 P: 3 stalker T: 2 marauder At 1:30 P: 3 stalker T: 3 marauder (1 second difference) At 2:00 P 3 stalker T FOUR MARAUDERSAt 2:11 P 4 stalkers T: 4 marauders (-11 seconds). Now lets talker about templar and ghost. Ghosts build in 40 seconds. Templars build in 55. That's a difference of 15 seconds. The difference between Stalker and Marauder was only 12. So, what you'll see with templar ghost production will mirror the analysis done above, except Ghosts will "catch up" to the templar production even faster because of the greater time differential between Ghosts and Templar. Thus, the difference doesn't get bigger between cycles, it gets smaller. Now, what does this mean for a real game? After all, T will have more than 1 barracks with a tech lab, and P will have more than one gate. Well, the limiting factor for P warping in templars is gas. So what you should really compare is barracks with tech labs for T and gateways which Toss has enough to build HT from. Basically, if T has more tech lab barracks than P has gas supported gateways then over time ghost production will get pretty far ahead of templar production... eh. Not too much you can get from that. Also, obviously I can chrono boost and you get to mule, which complicates things further. Anyways, you said the difference got bigger, I think it gets smaller. But I ain't great with math. Care to explain? Sweet it works for 1 gate vs 1 raxx. Please enlighten me when its 8 gate vs 3-4 raxx. Does it still add up? 16 vs at best 8 sounds fair. Because when you get the units doesn't matter, it's the fact that we can make more quicker down the line. Since when do Terran have same production as protoss? That's good.
There's a thousand different complications in a real game. Doko100, however, made a specific and interesting post which I responded to. In doing so, I feel like I'm getting a better idea about Terran and Protoss production work. Frankly, I'm not making a balance comment. I'm just trying to understand the game better.
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Does anyone know why there are so few games played in September? it went from 3 months of around 3000 games per month to not even 1000
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