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On October 30 2011 00:34 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 00:32 teamsolid wrote:On October 30 2011 00:25 ejozl wrote: The thing is, smarts has no skill ceiling. And in a strategy game, i don't really care if i see a player with surperior mechanics losing to one with inferior ones. I actually get happy, cuz that means outwitting, is more of a factor, than tapping your toes. The one good thing hard mechanics does offer though, is consistency. There is a limit actually because it's a strategy game with limited information (like poker). At some point just the random luck of choosing the correct the build order against the other player could outweigh the "smarts" of the player. Not saying it's headed that way yet, but there is a ceiling. ...And yet we see the same people winning poker tournaments again and again. Because they play many, many hands, so the superior player will win games that the pure card values say he shouldn't more than he loses, enough to give him the victory. If SC2 battles become constant skirmishes as opposed to 1a death balling, this applies.
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The quicker it becomes a game of strategy instead of a game of mechanics the better. Personally I find the idea of mechanical skill being impressive somewhat ridiculous. Yes it's difficult, but it's a rather rote exercise.
Strategical and tactical thinking will make the difference when many players have hit the "skill ceiling", and that's where the game actually gets interesting and engaging.
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Lol .. people here confuse Bot Multitask vs Human multitask ..
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On October 30 2011 00:21 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Terran i think will be the first to hit to skill cap after that since the mule is so noob friendly, there would need to be a call down cd like inject or else it will crush Terran in the long run. The micro of terran will surpass zerg and protoss but i think there will be a limit to how much the human body can do. See, now I don't really think a cooldown on mules is a good idea, we need to save energy for scans and if we come to the point where we don't need the scans anymore, we can use the energy. The difference between inject and mules is light and day. Mules gives you minerals sure, but then you mine out quicker, Inject has a cooldown as the ability has to happen over time. Instantly getting like what, 9 new larva would be hella OP late game, you could just reinforce your whole army in seconds and crush whatever opponent as they wouldn't be able to build up as fast as you. Heck, look at late game zerg now, lose most of your army and reinforce with 100 lings from all that larva you have saved up. Then you go and win as long as you had a favourable engagement beforehand. Also, queens have Tranfuse which too many pros still don't use late game (especially Transfuse on fighting ultras/broods/mutas etc) so it could be favourable to save energy for that late game when your larva pools up anyways. The game is still largely undiscovered, especially on the protoss side of things.
Honestly there is just as much decision making in where to scan and saving up energy to scan many bases at once later in the game (for carrier switches, etc).
Blizzard decided instead to make scan really freaking huge because it competed with mule. I would rather mule had a cooldown, and make scan a lot smaller, then you can use scan more frequently and we probably wouldn't see as many coin-flips either. Also it allows the ability to take down expansions quicker so you won't have uber long TvT's.
On October 30 2011 00:10 Rafael wrote: I'm not worried at all because , you are forgetting that there's only a small percentage of UBER PLAYERS , remember that the back bone of the community are normal skill players, like you and me.
So by making an impossible game worthy of legends, it just wouldn't click, why do you think SC2 iis EXPLOTING right now?.
Just because is accesible dude.
Easy to get into, really hard to master.
That's the way I like it.
I never really got this point.
BW is easier to learn and harder to master than SC2.
How do you explain macro mechanics, vikings vs colossi, PDD, etc. In BW everything is so simple, simple units, simple mechanics, simple spells, builds that can defend everything, etc.
In BW, you wanna macro better? make more bases, click your buildings faster and more often, keep your money low.
In SC2, you wanna macro better? Okay expand, now get a queen, make sure to have 1 queen per hatchery at least, then inject larva for each queen on each hatchery, but don't spend your money yet, you have to saves some up if some shit happens and you need to tech switch. Oh yeah wait don't inject! hes going banshees! you need to save up for transfuse! ok this time the queen should drop a creep tumor instead of inject. Ok now you have done injects, you can use this larva to make units.
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The only thing im worried about is the snowball effect in sc2. If you lose one trade its hard to recover and it seems like sc2 is really BO wars. The blob vs blob thing still exists too.
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Yeah i think Sc2 is to easy and if you practice a couple of hours in one month you can basically perfect ur macro completely. Theres only so much you can do in sc2 in bw since the macro was way harder that problem never occured. As an example in sc2 if a protoss FFE's vs Z all he has to do is 4eeF1cF1c and build some buildings thats it. In a year or so if blizzard doesnt remove automining and maybe multiple building selections etc sc2 will be completely mastered. P.S If they shall remove multiple building selection they have to remove warpgates yaaaay
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On October 30 2011 00:53 alexhard wrote: The quicker it becomes a game of strategy instead of a game of mechanics the better. Personally I find the idea of mechanical skill being impressive somewhat ridiculous. Yes it's difficult, but it's a rather rote exercise.
This. People bash games because they are not mechanically demanding... well, if you want a demanding game, you shouldnt play a STRATEGY game. Strategy games should be about strategy, my old favorite SupCom, here everyone bashed it ("it has no micro" (it has, just people too dumb to look for), automining, command queuing, units have smart AI), for stupid things, but man, that was strategy! The scale was so large, you had to outsmart your opponent, outmaneuver him, and not one slip of attention won you the game. Ofc EVERY game becomes mechanically demanding if you play high enough lvl, but the less automatizable stuff you have to do manually, the more emphasis on strategy.
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On October 29 2011 23:53 TheBomb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 21:11 AudionovA wrote: No, i really dont get this question. We already have super dominant players like MVP and NesTea, who still think they can play better. I really exited for the SC1 to SC2 switch but i wont worry about skill cap till i see it reached or someone comes really damn close consistently. Yeah and Nestea and MVP were both mid B level players in Brood War. Now imagine the high B level players and their skill, then imagine A level players and then imagine S level players like Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Stork, etc... They are going to rip apart the game I feel and all possible things to improve would be small and insignificant sort of gimmicky things that don't really make you an advantage no matter how good you do them. So my point is about diminishing returns. I mean microing 10 stalkers against 40 roaches is never going to work no matter how good you micro the 10 stalkers with blink. So my point is if you think the game will come to that level where yes you can do more things, but they are so gimmicky and do not represent real skill. Another diminishing return example: Mircoing zealots against marine and marauders. But ultimately I'm looking of how many high level micro/high level reward do we have in SC2? In SC1 we had lurkers vs marines vs tanks vs dark swarm vs irradiate vs scourge, then you had firebats coming in late vs lurkers and zerglings, etc.... in SC1 we had shuttle/reaver vs terran or zerg either mineral line or armies, we had corsairs with disruption web in support of reaver/shuttle vs say in zerg hydralisks, zerglings and scourge. In SC2 I can only think of marines and tanks vs zerglings and balenings vs fungal. And we see more tanks to counter infestors. Other is hellions vs zerglings and mutalisks vs marines, but notice how things stop within 3 to 4 units?
Fascinating. Since in SC2 it's zerglings vs marines vs banelings vs tanks vs mutalisks vs marines vs infestors vs ghosts vs banelings. Oh and then you've got to deal with creep spread.
SC2 looks a lot more complicated when you're actually honest about how it works.
Automining also does not remove any complexity, it simply removes a list of things you have to do. It gets rid of the boring part of the game that's pointlessly difficult (like the idea that to keep a car running you have to pump the pedal constantly instead of holding it down) and allows pros to focus on strategy and micro rather than just macro mechanics, which has always been and always will be a memory game.
If Brood War is a better game it is because it is an older game. You say 300 APM to get your micro/macro right. Yeah, okay. So macro is suddenly easier in SC2. Makes lower level games more interesting. Has no real effect on higher level games.
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the skill ceiling will be hardly reached, as in extreme you might micro each single unit individually. the only problem might be the strong all in's. a well designed all in/timing push has a good chance to win you a game against standard play even if you are good.
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On October 30 2011 00:42 Reborn8u wrote: The problem in the back of my mind with most of these "Sc2 skill ceiling" ideas, is that they assume there is nothing to be discovered. It's a false assumption in my opinion. This is also the same problem with peoples concepts of balance in the games current state. It's all about efficiency. So I'll pose a question.
Do you believe 100% efficiency has been achieved?
I don't think anyone has come close. For example (and these are all directed at the highest level of play)
Do we see zerg players using overseers to delay key production whenever they have extra money or are maxed and can't produce more units? They should be doing this every game, in every match up. Contaminating robo facilities, factories, starports, or enemy hatcheries.
Do we see crono being used as soon as possible all the time? No, not even close. Keep in mind chrono is time, time can't be made up.
Do we see OC energy being used ASAP all the time? No, sure a terran can drop 4 mules at a time, but unless they are about to take a new base (gold), that money could already be made and spent.
Do we see terrans making scouting reapers throughout the game, no, instead of spending 50/50 they drop a scan that could be 270 from a mule.
Do we see Protoss hitting all of their warp cycles and making plenty of obs, and using warp in harrass throughout the game? Sometimes, much more recently.
Do we see zergs using overlords to spread creep throughout the game (even in the edges of their own bases)? No, we see overlords sitting idle in groups as early as midgame.
Do we see zergs using nydus to get good positioning and help defend spread out bases? No, not often, it's common in BW though.
Are hallucinations getting used enough? No, but we'll see a flock of sentries sitting idle with full energy.
Do we see units clearing destructible rocks early when they are sitting idle? Sometimes.
Do we see protoss always having proxy pylons around the map? Sometimes
Do we see zergs using burrow almost every game, to delay expansions and keep map vision, or burrow banelings? Sometimes
Do we see spellcasters being babied and players making sure they get the most value possible? No, I constantly see Templar getting wasted and not turning into archons when they could have, Infestors running around pointlessly dying after fungals, I think terrans are a little bit better about ghosts.
Do we still see medevacs sitting idle waiting to die after a drop instead of returning home when the drop is cleaned up? yes
Do we always see army's getting spread out, using flanking and the best positioning possible? Sometimes.
Do we see zergs using transfuse, or doing burrow micro with roaches (blink style) to get the most out of every unit? Sometimes
Do we see sensor towers getting used to always be in position to defend harassment? No, (some might argue this, but I doubt loosing workers or addons isn't worth the cost of the tower)
Do we see terrans getting +2 building armor or pf/turret range upgrade when they are getting muta harrassed? Rarely
Have gas timings been nearly as refined for all the races as they were in BW? Nope
My hypothesis is that when we see more top BW players enter sc2, and the game has more time to evolve, most of the answers to these questions will change. I don't know how different things will be in HOTS, and legacy of the void. But when you really think about all the things I've pointed out, and the possibility of things no one has even thought of yet, do you still think anyone has come anywhere near the absolute skill ceiling in sc2?
A shit load of things you posted are based on STRATEGY. I'm not going to chrono as soon as it's up because I'M SAVING IT! Same goes for terran OC's. Many terrans use Sensor Towers.
Things you are posting are from LOW TIER players. Show me how many times MVP left a medivac to die, for example.
Those are solely based upon APM.
You think there are more things to "discover" because you're relating this to BW. Sorry this game was made for the entire reason that BW was hard to pick up and play, and took years to even become a C or B player on ICCUP and many wouldn't even get that far. There are not many things to discover in this game because THEY MADE IT THAT WAY. It's not like BW.
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New units will create new builds and timings. What they are we can only imagine atm but i really, really do hope it raises the bar by a large amount. Just thinking of units like the replicator with hundreds of combos (not going to discuss weather or not the unit is good or bad, just think of the possibilities it can have). Will we see strategies like they were in brood war? We can only hope =/
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If you seriously think the skill ceiling in sc2 is reached or close to be reached I think you have problems with you imagination and grasp of how wast and how many different options and possible outcomes vs actions this game actually has. Like many others have said previously. And I dont mean to be rude, just think about it. And compare to a game like chess for example, witch no doubt has less options than sc2 if you think of limited moves. The game isnt ALL about macroing and build orders, and if it was, I still dont see people with perfect build orders or macro or even close to it.
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On October 30 2011 01:20 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 00:42 Reborn8u wrote: The problem in the back of my mind with most of these "Sc2 skill ceiling" ideas, is that they assume there is nothing to be discovered. It's a false assumption in my opinion. This is also the same problem with peoples concepts of balance in the games current state. It's all about efficiency. So I'll pose a question.
Do you believe 100% efficiency has been achieved?
I don't think anyone has come close. For example (and these are all directed at the highest level of play)
Do we see zerg players using overseers to delay key production whenever they have extra money or are maxed and can't produce more units? They should be doing this every game, in every match up. Contaminating robo facilities, factories, starports, or enemy hatcheries.
Do we see crono being used as soon as possible all the time? No, not even close. Keep in mind chrono is time, time can't be made up.
Do we see OC energy being used ASAP all the time? No, sure a terran can drop 4 mules at a time, but unless they are about to take a new base (gold), that money could already be made and spent.
Do we see terrans making scouting reapers throughout the game, no, instead of spending 50/50 they drop a scan that could be 270 from a mule.
Do we see Protoss hitting all of their warp cycles and making plenty of obs, and using warp in harrass throughout the game? Sometimes, much more recently.
Do we see zergs using overlords to spread creep throughout the game (even in the edges of their own bases)? No, we see overlords sitting idle in groups as early as midgame.
Do we see zergs using nydus to get good positioning and help defend spread out bases? No, not often, it's common in BW though.
Are hallucinations getting used enough? No, but we'll see a flock of sentries sitting idle with full energy.
Do we see units clearing destructible rocks early when they are sitting idle? Sometimes.
Do we see protoss always having proxy pylons around the map? Sometimes
Do we see zergs using burrow almost every game, to delay expansions and keep map vision, or burrow banelings? Sometimes
Do we see spellcasters being babied and players making sure they get the most value possible? No, I constantly see Templar getting wasted and not turning into archons when they could have, Infestors running around pointlessly dying after fungals, I think terrans are a little bit better about ghosts.
Do we still see medevacs sitting idle waiting to die after a drop instead of returning home when the drop is cleaned up? yes
Do we always see army's getting spread out, using flanking and the best positioning possible? Sometimes.
Do we see zergs using transfuse, or doing burrow micro with roaches (blink style) to get the most out of every unit? Sometimes
Do we see sensor towers getting used to always be in position to defend harassment? No, (some might argue this, but I doubt loosing workers or addons isn't worth the cost of the tower)
Do we see terrans getting +2 building armor or pf/turret range upgrade when they are getting muta harrassed? Rarely
Have gas timings been nearly as refined for all the races as they were in BW? Nope
My hypothesis is that when we see more top BW players enter sc2, and the game has more time to evolve, most of the answers to these questions will change. I don't know how different things will be in HOTS, and legacy of the void. But when you really think about all the things I've pointed out, and the possibility of things no one has even thought of yet, do you still think anyone has come anywhere near the absolute skill ceiling in sc2?
A shit load of things you posted are based on STRATEGY. I'm not going to chrono as soon as it's up because I'M SAVING IT! Same goes for terran OC's. Many terrans use Sensor Towers. Things you are posting are from LOW TIER players. Show me how many times MVP left a medivac to die, for example. Those are solely based upon APM. You think there are more things to "discover" because you're relating this to BW. Sorry this game was made for the entire reason that BW was hard to pick up and play, and took years to even become a C or B player on ICCUP and many wouldn't even get that far. There are not many things to discover in this game because THEY MADE IT THAT WAY. It's not like BW.
In the GSL finals i saw both MVP and MMA throw away several medivacs and other units due to miscontrol and attacking at the wrong times. There's alot to improve upon in both the micro and macro department but i guess people like you want to downplay it so you can keep crying. The guy posted loads of examples of stuff to improve and you just disregard all of it and keep on trucking with the "it's not BW" bs.
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I consistently see extremely high level terran players such as boxer, MVP, MKP, etc queue up all their barracks and factories with 5 marines and 5 tanks, i know this is because with terran the race is very much fixated on micro but we will soon see this never ever happen. Just this example proves that we are sooo incredibly far from "perfect macro" or "perfect micro". Once Flash comes i hope to see these flaws diminish.
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If you compare SC2 to other Esports like DotA, Quake or whatever, it's pretty safe to say that none of those games is even close to being as hard mechanically as SC2. Yet, the skill ceiling isn't reached in any of those games.
I actually like that SC2 has "easy" macro. I don't want to watch machines playing, but smart people.
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On October 30 2011 01:15 KulterBaun wrote:Yeah i think Sc2 is to easy and if you practice a couple of hours in one month you can basically perfect ur macro completely. Theres only so much you can do in sc2 in bw since the macro was way harder that problem never occured. As an example in sc2 if a protoss FFE's vs Z all he has to do is 4eeF1cF1c and build some buildings thats it. In a year or so if blizzard doesnt remove automining and maybe multiple building selections etc sc2 will be completely mastered. P.S If they shall remove multiple building selection they have to remove warpgates yaaaay
Yeah man playing 5 hours a month will easily get your macro to a PERFECT level. And you're so right, sc2's skill ceiling is so low that the entire game will be completely mastered within a year. Unfortunately then we'll all be sitting around waiting for sc3.
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worried? no since if we are honest its well known since the release of beta.
the only difference is that by now ive given up all hope that this will ever change.sc2 just rarely has that wow effect. in most games you see the same stuff and the caster hype/environment makes the excitement instead of the game/players.
also i think "skill ceiling" is not really the right term. esp in a game like starcraft you wont see "perfect" play. but what is the real problem is that people cant use and show their true skill since the game limits them and where it doesnt limit them it helps the player so much that the skill needed is very small. which is bad for competition, fun and viewing pleasure.
this is one of the main reasons i nowadays dont play sc2 anymore(atleast till hots), barely watch anymore and absolutely cannot watch any match without topnotch casters.
On October 30 2011 01:33 Chise wrote: If you compare SC2 to other Esports like DotA, Quake or whatever, it's pretty safe to say that none of those games is even close to being as hard mechanically as SC2. Yet, the skill ceiling isn't reached in any of those games.
I actually like that SC2 has "easy" macro. I don't want to watch machines playing, but smart people.
dota is a joke as esport. the ONLY reason its succesful is because the game attracts masses, not because its a good esport game in ANY way.a one handed monkey could play that game well. quake i would argue. beeing good at quake (with movement,timing and all) is one of the hardest.games to learn nowadays.
anyways that doesnt even matter. as i said, skill ceiling is a bad word for the problem. since we dont and wont see "perfect" play in the bigger picture(perfect execution yes. def.). the problem is that the game is build for very simple play and actually has mechanics AGAINST microing on many units (muta & hellion for example). and because of that players cant use their full potential and the difference between players gets smaller and smaller.
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No.
Go back to the BW forum, if people kept going to the BW forum and making these kinds of posts they would be temped, so why do people keep making them in the sc2 thread?
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On October 30 2011 01:33 Chise wrote: If you compare SC2 to other Esports like DotA, Quake or whatever, it's pretty safe to say that none of those games is even close to being as hard mechanically as SC2. Yet, the skill ceiling isn't reached in any of those games.
I actually like that SC2 has "easy" macro. I don't want to watch machines playing, but smart people.
Have you ever played Quake? DotA sure, its not a "hard" game if you watch only mechanics, but its not a coincidence that that german guy fatality was THE best consistently. He was better than everyone else, so you cant say it was an easy game mechanically.
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As QXC put it, paraphrasing him... "...there is always something more you can do."
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