Should education be free? - Page 12
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2708 Posts
On March 13 2012 22:15 FallDownMarigold wrote: Correct me if im wrong but one of the problems in Europe is that altho docs are cheap, they aren't very widely available, at least not compared with how things are in the US. Is this correct? I've heard that waiting times to see specialists are often many months or longer, whereas in the US one can pick and choose from dozens upon dozens of specialists in any one sub-field. Not saying US health care is better by any means, but that's one point a lot of people overlook when going on about the nice things EU has That's wrong. Pretty much every European country has less inhabitants per doctor than nearly any part of the US. As can be seen here: http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/276540-poster594x420mm_eng.jpg http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_phy_per_1000_peo-physicians-per-1-000-people http://www.globalhealthfacts.org/data/topic/map.aspx?ind=74 However, waiting times for some specialists tend to be longer in European countries than in the US. The reason being that in the US there are simply a lot of people who could never afford a specialist. At least in Germany (and I guess all other European countries) you can secure yourself a shorter wait for a specialist if you have a private health insurance. | ||
colate
Norway121 Posts
Norway isn't in EU, we're in European Economic Area (EEA). Therefore we don't use euro On March 13 2012 22:15 FallDownMarigold wrote: Correct me if im wrong but one of the problems in Europe is that altho docs are cheap, they aren't very widely available, at least not compared with how things are in the US. Is this correct? I've heard that waiting times to see specialists are often many months or longer, whereas in the US one can pick and choose from dozens upon dozens of specialists in any one sub-field. Not saying US health care is better by any means, but that's one point a lot of people overlook when going on about the nice things EU has I think you are on the right track. As far as I've experienced, keep in mind I'm only 20 years old, getting an appointment with a doctor is easy. In Norway everyone have the right to have a, what I believe you in the US call, general practitioner, which is one doctor who has X amounts of people that can make an appointment at a low fee. If you don't have one the waiting time is much longer and the fee is much, much higher. About the waiting times to see specialists I do not know by experience. But recently I've seen a political debate about the waiting time for people diagnosed with cancer etc. If we take the treatment of cancer in Norway vs US - who do you think have the highest percentage of success in cancer treatment? I believe Jens Stoltenberg, PM of Norway, said (in the debate I mentioned earlier) that Norway is one of the best countries to cure cancer. I know that US have a larger population than Norway, but I think the fact that health care is free that's the biggest reason. Millions upon millions in the US can't afford insurance. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert in this area, just expressing my opinion. But more on topic: I think education should be free for many reasons. First of all everyone should have the same oppertunity to become something they want to strive for regardless of their background. I think it's bullshit that you can be 'lucky' to be born into a wealthy familiy that can pay for your education when there is someone who could accomplish more than others but doesn't have enough money. Second of all it's a good investment for the country. You'll have more and better people in their respective fields. The students will repay by paying taxes. And probably much, much more pros than I can think of on top of my head. | ||
liberal
1116 Posts
And we should replace the government monopoly on education with a system designed to foster competition, by subsidizing the parents rather than subsidizing the schools. That alone will revolutionize the broken system overnight. | ||
Usagi
Spain1647 Posts
On March 13 2012 23:21 Blasterion wrote: Education shouldn't be free. It should be an investment one makes for their future career. Besides if education was free, one wouldn't cherish the opportunity enough to motivate them to really try to do well. Also it's a lot easier on government budgeting. Even if education is free, there is a high opportunity cost involved in attending school over working. So nothing is free. With this I mean. If you spend 4 years in university, paying 2k each year 8k +4 years taht you could be making 15k easy (depending on where you live) My costs of going to university and performing well, (4 years on a 4 year carrer) are closer to 80K than to nothing. | ||
zomgE
498 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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QuXn
Germany71 Posts
- only reason u can go to college now? -> govt. loans - why govt. loans? -> prvt institutions will not give em - why no prvt. loans? -> they know u wont pay it back this is what should be done: - no govt. guar. student loans -> less people in college -> prices fall - why do we want less students? -> education becomes worth it again - why is it not worth going to college now? -> debt slavery, joblessness afterwards - why are there no jobs for graduates? -> same jobs can be done with no degrees - no time spent in college -> u work a job, get exp, do on the job training... benifactors of govt loans: THE COLLEGES/COLLEGE OWNERS - why? -> its f.ing expensive! the most dangerous words in the english language: I´m from the government, and i´m here to help! EDIT: RON PAUL 2012 | ||
froggynoddy
United Kingdom452 Posts
On March 13 2012 22:15 FallDownMarigold wrote: Correct me if im wrong but one of the problems in Europe is that altho docs are cheap, they aren't very widely available, at least not compared with how things are in the US. Is this correct? I've heard that waiting times to see specialists are often many months or longer, whereas in the US one can pick and choose from dozens upon dozens of specialists in any one sub-field. Not saying US health care is better by any means, but that's one point a lot of people overlook when going on about the nice things EU has You may have a point but be careful with your generalising all EU member states into one category of medical service provider. Every member state have different ways of dealing with their healthcare, what you say may be true regarding the NHS (waiting times have been a constant issue in the UK) but not for France or Germany. My question is do you need 20 competing specialists when 5 equally well trained ones would satisfy the demand? (This is not a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know, my first impression is though having 20 competing specialists means that you probably get better doctors/facilities, the financial trade off doesn't seem worth it imo). | ||
Googity
United States127 Posts
http://www.businessinsider.com/next-bankruptcy-for-a-whole-generation-2012-3 I'm 29, a college grad with a BS in Accounting, and it put me $53,000 in debt. This was after scholarships and grants which I applied for every year, but each year in school the amount kept becoming less and less and the amount financed through loans kept going up. The article does a really good job describing just how fucked up our college system is over here. For those countries with free or substantially government subsidized higher education, just be grateful you have it that way. Yes, you pay for it through taxes, but you're not setting yourself up for massive amounts of debt straight out of school. | ||
meadbert
United States681 Posts
Once you hit a level that most people will not obtain, you are basically spending state money to subsidize the future upper class which is the most regressive thing that can be done. The way the college system typically operates is they seek those people who are already most likely to be successful and then make them even more successful while taxing those who are less likely to be successful to pay for it. In America, someone with a Master's Degree is expected to make $1.3M more than someone with just a high school diploma. I have no problem with saddling the fortunate student with $150K in student loans since that still leaves them $1M ahead. | ||
Red112
20 Posts
On March 13 2012 22:15 FallDownMarigold wrote: Correct me if im wrong but one of the problems in Europe is that altho docs are cheap, they aren't very widely available, at least not compared with how things are in the US. Is this correct? I've heard that waiting times to see specialists are often many months or longer, whereas in the US one can pick and choose from dozens upon dozens of specialists in any one sub-field. Not saying US health care is better by any means, but that's one point a lot of people overlook when going on about the nice things EU has The waiting times may be slightly lower than some EU nations but your point has been massively overplayed by right wing Americans. Also, it's easier to have access to a doctor when there's 35 million people missing from your healthcare coverage lmao. | ||
Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 13 2012 22:15 FallDownMarigold wrote: Correct me if im wrong but one of the problems in Europe is that altho docs are cheap, they aren't very widely available, at least not compared with how things are in the US. Is this correct? I've heard that waiting times to see specialists are often many months or longer, whereas in the US one can pick and choose from dozens upon dozens of specialists in any one sub-field. Not saying US health care is better by any means, but that's one point a lot of people overlook when going on about the nice things EU has In the US, you can pay and see a specialist quickly... or you die, because you can't afford the healthcare. In universal healthcare countries such as sweden, you can pay and see a specialist quickly... or you can wait in line and see one for free. | ||
shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
On March 13 2012 23:34 meadbert wrote: It depends. At levels that everyone should obtain then making education free has great benefits. Once you hit a level that most people will not obtain, you are basically spending state money to subsidize the future upper class which is the most regressive thing that can be done. The way the college system typically operates is they seek those people who are already most likely to be successful and then make them even more successful while taxing those who are less likely to be successful to pay for it. Which is only true in the fantasy world where the (often educated) middle class (And the rich) don't pay a disproportionately larger share of taxes. In America, someone with a Master's Degree is expected to make $1.3M more than someone with just a high school diploma. I have no problem with saddling the fortunate student with $150K in student loans since that still leaves them $1M ahead. He's also expected to pay some $300,000K more in taxes back to the government, off that income. Investing into accessible post-secondary education provides amazing returns from the government's... And socity at large's side of the coin... In the US, you can pay and see a specialist quickly... or you die, because you can't afford the healthcare. In universal healthcare countries such as sweden, you can pay and see a specialist quickly... or you can wait in line and see one for free. More like you can get whatever treatment you need, quickly if you're in danger of dropping dead... Or wait in line if you're not. | ||
Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On March 13 2012 23:36 shaftofpleasure wrote: Education can be free. Schooling isn't. wat. Elaborate please. | ||
Googity
United States127 Posts
On March 13 2012 23:34 meadbert wrote: It depends. At levels that everyone should obtain then making education free has great benefits. Once you hit a level that most people will not obtain, you are basically spending state money to subsidize the future upper class which is the most regressive thing that can be done. The way the college system typically operates is they seek those people who are already most likely to be successful and then make them even more successful while taxing those who are less likely to be successful to pay for it. In America, someone with a Master's Degree is expected to make $1.3M more than someone with just a high school diploma. I have no problem with saddling the fortunate student with $150K in student loans since that still leaves them $1M ahead. The problem with this though is that 10 years ago it cost 1/3rd of the current amount paid for college. Did inflation go up that much? Hell no, it has to do with the fact that universities jack up costs due to a lot of unesscesary overhead costs, and no one can really do anything to combat it. What makes the cost of something that's fairly constant TRIPLE over 10 years? Like the article I linked says, price to buy a ticket for a plane goes up, people don't buy tickets. Well if a school jacks up tuition 15% from year to year (which my school did multiple years in a row) a kid can't just drop out and say screw it without severely messing up their education/life plans. | ||
Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On March 13 2012 23:22 liberal wrote: Education should be free for the people who can't afford it. Those who can afford it should realize that it's already not "free" for them, they are paying the costs through taxation. And we should replace the government monopoly on education with a system designed to foster competition, by subsidizing the parents rather than subsidizing the schools. That alone will revolutionize the broken system overnight. Government monopoly has shown excellent results in Finland (almost always top 3 in the world in math tests). South Korea gets similar results but they but at least twice as much time on school work. Equality gives better results. Just because education is free does not mean it leads to abundance. There is a shortage of engineers in Sweden where you get money from going to school. | ||
stokes17
United States1411 Posts
BUT, I pay 25k+ a semester, so I'm not exactly bleeding w/ sympathy ^^ | ||
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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