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On May 12 2012 05:52 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:48 SoniC_eu wrote:On May 12 2012 05:42 Cyro wrote: I just wish protoss was not declared overpowered as soon as they are contending for their first GSL win in over a year T-T
PvT is finally playable, perhaps protoss favored in some areas, but definately terran favored in others. If it IS protoss favored, it is definately nothing in the shadow of what happened around mid to late last year with 1-1-1 etc, get over it, or as protoss was told 50'000 times in that era, adapt. Yes, and at long last Toss have finally figured out the PvT matchup (with players like PArting, Squirtle, Genius etc. showing the way). Now the Terrans must answer. So let's give it like 3-4 months and see what happens. Mvp found the answer already. It was quite obvious tbh. I'm talking about ladder bro. Tourney is different situation completly. IF answer is cheese 24/7 then....that's not the answer lol
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Protoss op banwagon all the way! Haha, smart as always.
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add lockdown to ghosts so you can lockdown colossus/ht, make it cost many mana tho. TvP = solved =)
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On May 12 2012 06:00 HolyArrow wrote:I never said that about Flash. Furthermore, "denial" implies that there's actually some overwhelming obvious truth that I'm being defensive about, while my argument is that things are not as clear-cut as they seem to some people, and that there are pieces of "evidence" that should not be used as evidence at all in a balance discussion because said evidence is itself biased (i.e Pros talking about what they think of balance). In the end, I'll say this: I don't care what you say about me, or how much people try to cloud the credibility of my argument with accusations of "denial". In the end, all my facts are there in my previous post, and as much as you try to mar my credibility, the facts thankfully remain constant: Even in the pro level, Protoss players say that Protoss is fine, while Terran players are complaining that Protoss is OP.
I can boil it down to a simple analogy to make it clearer. Let's say there's a panel of 4 experts on a subject. Expert A and B say that X is true, while experts C and D claim that X is not true. What people are essentially doing here is saying, "Oh look, Experts A and B say X is true, so HA!" while simultaneously ignoring the fact that experts C and D claim that X is not true. And in the case of SC2, experts A and B actually have a personal stake in convincing others that X is true, while experts C and D have a personal stake in convincing others that X is not true, which throws the validity of their opinions (validity in the sense of how close to the truth their opinions are) even more into question. I've said my piece, trying to make logical arguments on an internet forum is a fool's errand anyway xD Did I make a claim that I was talking about you in any way? I was making a general statement using the style you had chosen. Of course I agree that terrans have confirmation bias, but protosses have a denial bias. i.e protoss wont take his opinions into any account, while terrans will take his words as gods.
Your ego makes you believe that protoss players have a more realistic look on the matchup, stating its balanced, what makes you think that terrans view on the matchup is inferior? That is essentually saying expert A and Bs claims of balance are true (despite their own personal bias, if they were unbiased they may say there was imbalance), where expert C and Ds claims of imbalance are false.
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On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol.
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On May 12 2012 06:01 MCDayC wrote: Disapointed to see balance whining, I don't really like it from any player, but I was expecting better from Flash. T_T
Just pretend that Flash never whined about balance. It was just an interview and they wanted at least some answers to their specific questions. Plus some of the wording might have got lost in translation.
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On May 12 2012 06:02 Steglich wrote: Now that flash says that protoss is op. Can I finally say it too without receiving a ban? He also said Zerg was better than Terran, or are we all ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit into our narratives?
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On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol.
He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade.
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On May 12 2012 05:53 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:45 SoniC_eu wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Jakkerr wrote:On May 12 2012 05:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 12 2012 05:30 Gaanzi wrote:On May 12 2012 05:28 DemigodcelpH wrote: OP you are in no place to tell us to not take a bwonja's analysis on balance seriously. Please don't disrespect flash. The guy admitted himself that he's a total noob at the game, don't be crass. Also what's the point for bolding your text, emphasizing your rather dumb point just makes it look even worse. He's top KR masters. Statistically he's more than qualified to comment on anything he likes. Additionally everyone knows how humble he is. He goes on 15-0 streaks regularly and attributes it to "luck". Denial will only protect your ego for so long. Denial? I'm pretty sure Terran and Zerg are still winning pretty much any tournament out there. Sure there is quite some Protoss players getting far, but they aren't actually winning anything. How can you call something OP when they really just aren't winning anything? What do u mean Protoss aren't winning any tournaments? Back your statement up Sure, Which major tournaments were won by Protoss players in 2012? Maybe I forgot 1 or 2 but I can't think of any, also Protoss STILL is the race with the lowest overall winrate according to the statistics. Some people in this thread make it sound like Protoss is insanely OP and w/e, but I'm just gonna guess most of those people are silver league terrans that have no clue that they are still playing the race that has had the most tournament wins and highest overall winrate for the last 2 years. But well, when u lose a game it's easier to blame the game then to acknowledge that u need to improve, that's entirely true ofc.
I would say that protoss players are finally adjusting to the terran style of play. Protoss have been doing well. KR stats,. TLPD for april 2012:
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On May 12 2012 06:04 Severian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:02 Steglich wrote: Now that flash says that protoss is op. Can I finally say it too without receiving a ban? He also said Zerg was better than Terran, or are we all ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit into our narratives? he talked about zerg allins.
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On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol.
yes but you need robbotics bay and the range upgrade 200 gas each, I do not count the starport that you have anyway same as Robo itself sorry but think.
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On May 12 2012 05:57 Kilby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:52 LiquidSlick wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. No... he is implying that confirmation bias is in play here. That would also include Demuslim. It doesn't imply that Flash is the only one complaining, but rather that his opinion is more important than anyone elses on the matter. There have been pros that complain just about almost every race, matchup, and timing. Flash is not special in that regard. Niether is Demuslim. Niether is Idra. Niether is Naniwa. Niether is Huk. I don't think you quite understood the wikipedia article. Actually, at this point in time, the opinion of Flash regarding balance is far less important than that of Naniwa, Huk or Demuslim.
That depends on how you assign importance. Because importance is just as subjective as imbalance perception, you can't argue either way.
It's honestly best to leave this balance shit alone for another topic and to blizzard, because god knows (not flash unfortunately), they always choose the easy/retarded way of "fixing" something, even when progamers tell them what the problem is in simple terms.
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On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. Still would be wrong.
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On May 12 2012 06:04 Severian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:02 Steglich wrote: Now that flash says that protoss is op. Can I finally say it too without receiving a ban? He also said Zerg was better than Terran, or are we all ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit into our narratives?
I agree, as a zerg player, that zerg is a bit better than terran at the moment.
Not as much as toss though.
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On May 12 2012 06:05 Bayyne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. He's factoring in the Thermal Lance upgrade. it's 200 200, so 2 collossi with thermal lance still arent 800.
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On May 12 2012 06:05 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:04 Severian wrote:On May 12 2012 06:02 Steglich wrote: Now that flash says that protoss is op. Can I finally say it too without receiving a ban? He also said Zerg was better than Terran, or are we all ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit into our narratives? he talked about zerg allins.
What do you think about the balance right now? Protoss is good and Zerg is second, then Terran. I think Terran is the worst, but others say they're second. Once the upcoming patch comes into effect I'm worried that Zerg might become OP as well.
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On May 12 2012 06:01 MCDayC wrote: Disapointed to see balance whining, I don't really like it from any player, but I was expecting better from Flash. T_T
Mmmm Protoss tears. It's not whining. It's an interview. He was asked these questions.
Do not disrepect Flash.
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On May 12 2012 06:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. yes but you need robbotics bay and the range upgrade 200 gas each, I do not count the starport that you have anyway same as Robo itself sorry but think. you need 2 starports really, to get/maintain a high enough medivac count. additional starport with reactor costs what? think please.
also vikings dont share their upgrades with everything else, like collossi and everything else a protoss is ever gonna use.
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On May 12 2012 06:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:04 beg wrote:On May 12 2012 05:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Implying hes the only pro to say that protoss was a bit too strong. Demuslim talked about it on his stream for about 5-10 minutes or so and he had really good points with real evidence. He said that Colossus tech is cheap compared to the Vikings you had to get. He stated that for 2 Colossi you need about 8 Vikings and that eats too much into your Bio. 8 Vikings = 600 Gas. 2 Colossi = 800 Gas, yeah so cheap.... you obviously need the range upgrade, or you will not force Vikings. After I heard him say that 2 Colossi cost less Gas then 6-8 Vikings I shut down the stream in anger. So I could not care less about his opinion, that is like IdrA saying Vortex is imbalanced while he INTENTIONALLY moves his entire army into one only to prove his point instead of having spread his units in the first place. collossi cost 300/200 though. sorry, but lol. yes but you need robbotics bay and the range upgrade 200 gas each, I do not count the starport that you have anyway same as Robo itself sorry but think. What a terrible argument. By your logic it costs 250 minerals to make 2 lings.
Name me one match-up where you don't get Colossi late game.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:05 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:04 Severian wrote:On May 12 2012 06:02 Steglich wrote: Now that flash says that protoss is op. Can I finally say it too without receiving a ban? He also said Zerg was better than Terran, or are we all ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit into our narratives? he talked about zerg allins. Which as we know, are really strong against terran! -_- Terran v Zerg is at the very least balanced, at worst Terran favoured until late game. Its hard to take his balance whining seriously based on him complaining about Zerg all ins. Plus he said maruaders are good. YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO SAVE MECH, NOT DESTROY IT!
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