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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
Brood War: Spades confirmed Hacker
SC2: Spades confirmed Stream Cheater
Given his history of blatantly cheating in one way or another, and the overwhelming amount of evidence presented in his replay analyses by numerous pros, and also the lack of logical explanation to counter or refute the evidence, I must agree that
Spades is a confirmed cheater (stream or hack, either way he is not to be trusted and still displays gross disrespect for the professional SC2 competitive scene.
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On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
Thanks for the insight, I think its more evident for pro's who understand the game to make a determination than randoms.
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On June 05 2012 13:40 rhs408 wrote:I bet Lucifron is the OP LOOOL
You could be right. But it's safe to say someone took a lot of time to go through those games. The OP also led with an introduction of map hacking itself before even investigating the merits of his claim.
After reviewing everything, I think he stream cheated, but I don't think we can really say more at this time.
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On June 05 2012 13:38 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it. I posted this a few pages back, and I'm happy to see a good player echo my thoughts. If he indeed didn't watch the fog of war a single time over 7 games (and no good explanation pops up), I'd say it's well beyond reasonable doubt.
Yup, the movements and decision making can be argued over again and again.
But never ever Fog of War. gg no re.
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On June 05 2012 13:38 BlackVelvet wrote: To clarify about these "magic scans" -- the ones made with the center off-screen (and where use of the minimap doesn't seem viable), what does that indicate? I'm assuming it means his cursor isn't confined to the normal game as he's playing it, possibly involved in his hack software, but my understanding is vague. As soon as you scroll into the fog of war with this hack (that lets you see through the fog of war), the replay camera tracker is frozen still, until his camera moves back into an area he's supposed to be able to see.
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On June 05 2012 13:38 FakeDeath wrote: Yup pretty sure Spades career is down the drain now. The " magic scan " ,sending your scv and not scouting the enemy tech with your scv is already pretty telling he was hacking. No doubt the part where he siege all his tanks at the edge of his natutal with 0 map vision.( Why the heck would you siege your all your tanks at the edge of your natural WTF). I guess he is really " lucky " encountering Lucifer army at the side at Entombed Valley. Spades was hacking.
This is the strongest piece of evidence, not the magic scan.
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I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
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I don't think the scans are really strong evidence. However there are things about how he plays and uses the minimap which simply don't make any sense. As CatZ pointed out, NOBODY plays like that. To me this is more than suspicious, it simply cannot be explained, and as Sherlock Holmes says, if there is only one possible explanation then it is the right one.
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On June 05 2012 12:51 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:42 Chicane wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote: this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you Are you serious? Even when you let your scout leave their base without looking, you never look afterwards to see what you saw? Really? You can see the gas in the mini-map yo I don't even like spades, I saw him in the earlier days banning people left and right from his stream for basically nothing. But this is nothing but a bunch of high school drama from 2 different cliques. You call this evidence? Lol It appears that spades has to play perfect because anything odd that he does is something wrong with his play or "he just sucks/retarded/bad" w/e catz and company want to call it. He gets picked apart by drops which is a whole other story.
You obviously didnt watch whole analysis, to still stick to spades side. I have no hate towards spades, but if you actually know stuff about the game and have average amount of knowledge about the game, you should realize catZ the others analysis was pretty accurate. and why would you make your maphacking obvious?
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I just want to say that the so called "analysis" by catz and illusion was very poorly conducted. I understand that in view of the nature of our gaming medium and it's history perhaps such a reckless approach maybe is justified and the ends justify the means. But regardless of whether he is or is not hacking, its easy to envision how with such a biased approach absolutely ANYONE can be labeled a "hacker" for even the slightest suspicious behaviour. A dangerous trend.
It was in no way balanced to provide both perspectives on the situation (example: the full army unsiege from the third to deal with the main drop - floating rax provided vision of incomming drop; the replay bug which was mentioned wherein it doesn't show the exact situation was absolutely ignored and not researched in deapth), it was prefaced with a promise of neutrality ("none of this is conclusive, its all fishy") wheras mutliple times durring the stream evidence was branded as "conclusive". After this you asked the audience for their "verdict" after what was basically 2 hours of biased speculation. You even at one point said that it was meaningless to invite Spades on because "he would either confirm or deny being a cheater"... what?
If you want to do a big drama episode thats fine, but don't call it anything other than that and don't ask for people's "verdict" after you essentially manipulated half of them into getting a giant drama-boner.
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Just a little math... 100 pages X 20 posts a page=2000 posts. It's been about 9:15= 555 minutes. 2000/555=~3.6
So we've been posting, on average, over 3 posts a minute for the past 9 hours...
Also... 266607 views/555 minutes=
...480 views a minute.
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Did they discuss this on SotG? Because while I know incontrol's response, im really interested in what Artosis had to say about it.
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What really worries me is what is going on behind the scenes? I get the feeling that there is alot of shit going on in the pro scene yet none of the pro's are willing to talk about it because it could hamper thier own career.
What the fuck is going on???
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On June 05 2012 13:38 FakeDeath wrote: Yup pretty sure Spades career is down the drain now. The " magic scan " ,sending your scv and not scouting the enemy tech with your scv is already pretty telling he was hacking. No doubt the part where he siege all his tanks at the edge of his natutal with 0 map vision.( Why the heck would you siege your all your tanks at the edge of your natural WTF). I guess he is really " lucky " encountering Lucifer army at the side at Entombed Valley. Spades was hacking.
He had 0 map vision? Are you blind? Did you not see he had center tower controlled which gave him any indication that any army would come from the middle of the map? It was a smart move considering the only way his opponent could attack him would be from that small side lane which wasn't covered by the center tower vision.
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What Catz and the rest claimed to be the solid evidence, the two "magic scans", is what should be discussed now.
They claimed that since Spades never saw the midle of the scan on his screen he must have: A) Clicked the scan on the minimap, or B) clicked the scan after scrolling to the location.
They argue that he most definitely must have clicked the scan after scrolling and not by clicking the scan directly on the minimap, and that the reason why his personal view in the replay isnt showing the midle of the scan is because the hack wont allow it. The hack supposedly works in the way that it blocks out activity where the hacker looks at areas of fog (as long as the hacker doesnt right click), and instead it shows as a "freeze" in the replay, a certain amount of seconds that shows his view completely still. If you watched their reasoning its pretty clear that he most definitly did not (or even, no way in hell) click the scan on the minimap, they also compared it to a replay and a VOD in which hes definitely not hacking (replay he sent to TT1 and VOD of him streaming live) where he scans after scrolling and it shows up normally, as in, his personal view shows the center of the scan.
So what we want to know now is, could what Catz and the others saw in the replays where he supposedly hacked be caused by some replay malfunction or by Catz using a lower resolution or something of that sort? Is it possible to recreate the non showing of the midle of the scan or is it simply proof of him hacking is what needs to be found out.
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On June 05 2012 13:43 NotR wrote: I just want to say that the so called "analysis" by catz and illusion was very poorly conducted. I understand that in view of the nature of our gaming medium and it's history perhaps such a reckless approach maybe is justified and the ends justify the means. But regardless of whether he is or is not hacking, its easy to envision how with such a biased approach absolutely ANYONE can be labeled a "hacker" for even the slightest suspicious behaviour. A dangerous trend.
It was in no way balanced to provide both perspectives on the situation (example: the full army unsiege from the third to deal with the main drop - floating rax provided vision of incomming drop; the replay bug which was mentioned wherein it doesn't show the exact situation was absolutely ignored and not researched in deapth), it was prefaced with a promise of neutrality ("none of this is conclusive, its all fishy") wheras mutliple times durring the stream evidence was branded as "conclusive". After this you asked the audience for their "verdict" after what was basically 2 hours of biased speculation. You even at one point said that it was meaningless to invite Spades on because "he would either confirm or deny being a cheater"... what?
If you want to do a big drama episode thats fine, but don't call it anything other than that and don't ask for people's "verdict" after you essentially manipulated half of them into getting a giant drama-boner.
This is true, which is why it's important to view the 100 replays and look statistically for more issues on a larger scale.
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On June 05 2012 13:43 Gheed wrote: I'm still not entirely convinced. I just don't understand the motive. Why, of all things to maphack in, would he maphack in a showmatch presented in part by his own team for absolutely no prize money? Is there any evidence of him hacking in any other tournaments? Who the hell posted this thread anyway?
I really fucking hate the way we've gone about doing this. Maybe he does hack, but I'm not sure the ends justify the means. If what people are saying is true, there are tons of cheaters in the pro scene, and I certainly don't want a shitstorm for every single one of them.
In today's Esports scene where personal popularity and stream revenue are almost as important as compensated tourney performance, I don't think it's unimaginable to think that any random pro wouldn't want to show the best possible result in ANY tourney or showmatch, regardless of prize pool.
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On June 05 2012 13:42 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:38 BlackVelvet wrote: To clarify about these "magic scans" -- the ones made with the center off-screen (and where use of the minimap doesn't seem viable), what does that indicate? I'm assuming it means his cursor isn't confined to the normal game as he's playing it, possibly involved in his hack software, but my understanding is vague. As soon as you scroll into the fog of war with this hack (that lets you see through the fog of war), the replay camera tracker is frozen still, until his camera moves back into an area he's supposed to be able to see.
I see. Thanks.
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On June 05 2012 13:44 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Did they discuss this on SotG? Because while I know incontrol's response, im really interested in what Artosis had to say about it. The cheating was just speculation at that point, No semi pro gamers had done an in depth analysis on ROOTCatZ stream. So they gave the standard answer "If he hacks then he is in a world of hurt" etc etc
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On June 05 2012 13:19 TSBspartacus wrote: cArn you admitted yourself you haven't watched all the games. The fact is you're defending a guy who didn't once have his camera into the fog of war in any of the replays provided, but scanned and moved armies and units with accuracy. Analyse the replays, pull your head out of your arse and then come back with your opinion. The point you seem to not understand is that map-hacks have this "screen-lock" which when you look into the fog of war, the camera will lock on the position you were looking. This is what Catz and co. have been trying to explain, and you can't see past it due to your own bias.
If what have been said about how hacks work is really true then yes, the camera locks and fog of war stuff is suspicious.
But the biggest thing that bothered me is how they went about proving it, using events in the game that had nothing to do with maphacking but just basic reasoning. I can understand that after watching the replays and those camera locks something looks fishy, but then only use that and don't try to pile up a bunch of facts that aren't relevant.
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