On July 03 2012 09:38 Shellshock1122 wrote:
They are using the best TvZ to try to validate their argument either way
They are using the best TvZ to try to validate their argument either way
Ah I see
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:38 Shellshock1122 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:37 Bagration wrote: On July 03 2012 09:35 Shellshock1122 wrote: On July 03 2012 09:34 Rulker wrote: On July 03 2012 09:32 andaylin wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 Rulker wrote: On July 03 2012 09:28 Canucklehead wrote: On July 03 2012 09:26 Rulker wrote: Speaking of MMA it's going to be hard to wait to the 17th for his GSL matches T_T Speaking of MMA, he used to have the best TvZ in the world and now he can't beat a zerg to save his life. Makes you go hmmmmm. 66% w/r vs Zerg (both TLPDs) in 2012. Queen patch didn't go through until like May lol. and since then he's beaten IdrA Symbol Nestea Shine and Stephano. To name a few. lol . One of these things is not like the other... He also has losses to Sen, Losira, Hyun, Byul all 2-0 Wait, why are we talking about MMA again? They are using the best TvZ to try to validate their argument either way Ah I see | ||
jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:34 Rulker wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:32 andaylin wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 Rulker wrote: On July 03 2012 09:28 Canucklehead wrote: On July 03 2012 09:26 Rulker wrote: Speaking of MMA it's going to be hard to wait to the 17th for his GSL matches T_T Speaking of MMA, he used to have the best TvZ in the world and now he can't beat a zerg to save his life. Makes you go hmmmmm. 66% w/r vs Zerg (both TLPDs) in 2012. Queen patch didn't go through until like May lol. and since then he's beaten IdrA Symbol Nestea Shine and Stephano. To name a few. lol . actually since the patch hit, the only Zergs he has beat are Shine and Nestea. | ||
Fubi
2228 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:34 MasterKang wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:31 opterown wrote: On July 03 2012 09:29 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:27 Ghanburighan wrote: On July 03 2012 09:24 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: On July 03 2012 09:18 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:12 Crowned wrote: On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series? Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series. yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly. ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built. a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect. For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all. | ||
Rulker
United States1477 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:41 Bagration wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:38 Shellshock1122 wrote: On July 03 2012 09:37 Bagration wrote: On July 03 2012 09:35 Shellshock1122 wrote: On July 03 2012 09:34 Rulker wrote: On July 03 2012 09:32 andaylin wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 Rulker wrote: On July 03 2012 09:28 Canucklehead wrote: On July 03 2012 09:26 Rulker wrote: Speaking of MMA it's going to be hard to wait to the 17th for his GSL matches T_T Speaking of MMA, he used to have the best TvZ in the world and now he can't beat a zerg to save his life. Makes you go hmmmmm. 66% w/r vs Zerg (both TLPDs) in 2012. Queen patch didn't go through until like May lol. and since then he's beaten IdrA Symbol Nestea Shine and Stephano. To name a few. lol . One of these things is not like the other... He also has losses to Sen, Losira, Hyun, Byul all 2-0 Wait, why are we talking about MMA again? They are using the best TvZ to try to validate their argument either way Ah I see No, as I said someone brought up how MKP > MMA > MVP > MKP. he is incorrect. | ||
Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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sparklyresidue
United States5521 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97250 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:41 Rulker wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:41 Bagration wrote: On July 03 2012 09:38 Shellshock1122 wrote: On July 03 2012 09:37 Bagration wrote: On July 03 2012 09:35 Shellshock1122 wrote: On July 03 2012 09:34 Rulker wrote: On July 03 2012 09:32 andaylin wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 Rulker wrote: On July 03 2012 09:28 Canucklehead wrote: On July 03 2012 09:26 Rulker wrote: Speaking of MMA it's going to be hard to wait to the 17th for his GSL matches T_T Speaking of MMA, he used to have the best TvZ in the world and now he can't beat a zerg to save his life. Makes you go hmmmmm. 66% w/r vs Zerg (both TLPDs) in 2012. Queen patch didn't go through until like May lol. and since then he's beaten IdrA Symbol Nestea Shine and Stephano. To name a few. lol . One of these things is not like the other... He also has losses to Sen, Losira, Hyun, Byul all 2-0 Wait, why are we talking about MMA again? They are using the best TvZ to try to validate their argument either way Ah I see No, as I said someone brought up how MKP > MMA > MVP > MKP. he is incorrect. Ok thats how to started. then it turned into mma vs mkp h2h. then it turned into tvz state based on MMA's TvZ win % | ||
opterown
Australia54651 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:31 Rulker wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:28 Canucklehead wrote: On July 03 2012 09:26 Rulker wrote: Speaking of MMA it's going to be hard to wait to the 17th for his GSL matches T_T Speaking of MMA, he used to have the best TvZ in the world and now he can't beat a zerg to save his life. Makes you go hmmmmm. 66% w/r vs Zerg (both TLPDs) in 2012. this is how it started | ||
MasterKang
United States1373 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:37 opterown wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:36 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:34 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 opterown wrote: On July 03 2012 09:29 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:27 Ghanburighan wrote: On July 03 2012 09:24 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: On July 03 2012 09:18 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:12 Crowned wrote: [quote] Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series. yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly. ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built. a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines 1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2 MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers | ||
Crowned
United States368 Posts
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mambar
United States841 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant. | ||
Fubi
2228 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:44 MasterKang wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:37 opterown wrote: On July 03 2012 09:36 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:34 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 opterown wrote: On July 03 2012 09:29 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:27 Ghanburighan wrote: On July 03 2012 09:24 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: On July 03 2012 09:18 MasterKang wrote: [quote] yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly. ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built. a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines 1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2 MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers That exact engagement for that exact game wouldn't have happened like that if there was no Queen buff, because the builds/meta would of been completely different. Therefore, Queen buff indirectly created that situation that allowed Coca's flank. | ||
opterown
Australia54651 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:44 MasterKang wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:37 opterown wrote: On July 03 2012 09:36 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:34 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 opterown wrote: On July 03 2012 09:29 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:27 Ghanburighan wrote: On July 03 2012 09:24 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: On July 03 2012 09:18 MasterKang wrote: [quote] yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly. ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built. a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff not to mention that the biggest differential in upgrades would be 1 or 2 upgrades at most, which wouldn't have affected the battle much, considering that the banelings were able to connect with the marines 1-2 upgrades is pretty big. that's 3/3 vs 2/2 MKP wasn't at 3/3 during that push first of all and I said at most 2 upgrades, that means like a 30% chance that there would be a 2 upgrade difference, especially considering how long upgrades take to finish and the fact that mkp was the one to move out and attack, not coca. If you look at the way the banes connected, 1-2 upgrades is not pretty big at all. Upgrades come into play when it comes to lings/ultras vs marines/marauders. There are many situations where upgrades make little difference (unless ofc it's 3/3 vs 1/1) like banelings connecting with marines and marauders vs stalkers regardless of that fact or not, the main point is that coca had a lot more stuff a lot earlier than he would have had prepatch, making the flank better | ||
opterown
Australia54651 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca! And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant. DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36693 Posts
LET'S DOOOOO TTTTHHHHHIIIISSSSSS | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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MasterKang
United States1373 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:41 Fubi wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:34 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:31 opterown wrote: On July 03 2012 09:29 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:27 Ghanburighan wrote: On July 03 2012 09:24 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: On July 03 2012 09:18 MasterKang wrote: On July 03 2012 09:12 Crowned wrote: On July 03 2012 09:03 -_- wrote: Is Coca on the same talent level as MKP? I haven't been following the scene very carefully lately. Is he a real threat to win this series? Inferior Zergs have been beating the top Terrans commonly since the queen buff so yes he is a real threat to win this series. yeah coca is such an inferior zerg. his zergling/baneling flanks were definitely stronger after that queen buff While I feel Coca is out-playing MarineKing here, it's really stupid to pretend that the Queen buff doesn't play a part in every single TvZ right now - it obviously does, even if only indirectly. ofc it does but at the same time, would the zergling/baneling flanks/surrounds have been ineffective if the buff wasn't implemented? no ofc not, mkp's army would still have been demolished I think the point was, that situation would not have arisen if the game played out under a prior patch because the patch affects everything that happens after the pool is built. a situation where the zerg has zerglings, banelings, and infestors aginst terran's marines/medivacs/tanks pretty much comes up in 99% of TvZ's.. regardless of the queen buff, coca's decision to surround and flank with banelings would have won him the battle zerg would have had less, and they would be less well-upgraded you realize that i am talking about the flank that coca made on entombed right? that game had progressed to the point where the only effect the buff would have on the game is the creep spread. That being said, in this specific game, the creep spread would have been the same, maybe a tiny bit worse, because MKP did not make helions that game to stop the creep (the aspect of creep-stopping strategy that was affected most by the buff). Therefore, the buff had little effect on coca's flank and he would've demolished that army regardless, so plz stop completely blaming stuff on the buff No, we're saying people should stop going "His Queen didn't even attack that game so the buff wouldn't have mattered!!". We're saying every change, especially one that is for early game, has a snowball or metagame effect. For example, imagine they buffed Vikings to be overpowered (something like 1 supply, builds twice as fast, etc). In PvT, the protoss would therefore never make Colossus, and the Terran would therefore never make Vikings to counter that, and instead go straight to ghost and be 100% prepared to counter Templar tech because that is the only thing left the P can do. So even if the T didn't make a single viking, that doesn't mean the viking buff didn't affect the match at all. how can you possible compare buffing the queen range by 2 with making vikings 1 supply and building twice as fast... The consequences of those two changes are COMPLETELY different b/c the extent of those changes aren't even close. I'm not arguing the game would have gone THE SAME EXACT WAY. I'm saying that Coca's decision to surround with banes was what allowed him to connect with mkp's marines, and his decision to surround with banes is not something affected by the queen buff. Oh hey my queens have more range, i want to flank from behind with banelings now. No of course not. Creep spread and upgrades are slightly affected by the buff, but like I said if you consider the point in time that flank took place and the way the metagame has shifted based on the buff, there wouldn't have been big enough of a difference that would allow MKP to somehow completely thwart the bane flank.. | ||
Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:47 iAmJeffReY wrote: Who's the best TvZ player in korea since patch? Jjakji. ( imo ) | ||
andaylin
United States10830 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:46 opterown wrote: Show nested quote + On July 03 2012 09:44 Hall0wed wrote: Goooooooo Coca! And no doa, I don't think a lot of people would say MKP is the best player in SC2 right now. -_- He is fantastic but thats just ignorant. DRG's the best, but MKP made a very compelling case pre-patch MKP WAS the best before during the short MLG Winter and IPL4 weeks, now it is probably DRG. | ||
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