|
>Infinite Ammo. >No Base Invasion like in the original >6 men squad instead of 14 (or 26 if you used the avenger) >randomized classes(annoying as fuck) >pre-designed maps that you play over and over again (There are around 30, lying devs say 80, but they count different spawn points as 'new maps') >aliens have specific spawn points and won't move until you find them. This is not true for Terror Missions. >Forced to play with 1 base only. Unlike the original, you could have multiple bases. >Can't have multiple teams because of lacking multiple bases >The new movement system is fucking retarded and limits your options to tactically advance. >can't choose your base location based on whatever you want, can only choose from 5 pre-set points around the world. >no needing workshops to actually manufacture ammo or weapons, they're made instantly when you pay for them. >entire game revolves around satellites as fast as possible or you lose. >no skyranger on the battlefield as initial cover. >no grenade priming. >no time units. >cant pick up items mid battle from other soldiers, either dropped or dead. >no facing/turning. >stats reduced from 8 to 3. >can only carry 1 grenade or 1 medpack etc at a time >no inventory size to manage, allowing for no freedom in customization >The environment isn't fully destructible. In the original the scenario could turn into a wasteland if the fight was long enough. >Cover in this isn't functional, it's just arbitrary stat bonuses, adding yet more RNG to the game, whilst removing all tactical decisions and strategy because of it. >bullets go through a foot of concrete >No free aim >can only research one project at a time, no ability to split your scientists between multiple projects if you feel like it
XCASUAL: ENEMY UNKNOWN
|
On October 25 2012 13:52 Dozle wrote: >Infinite Ammo. >No Base Invasion like in the original >6 men squad instead of 14 (or 26 if you used the avenger) >randomized classes(annoying as fuck) >pre-designed maps that you play over and over again (There are around 30, lying devs say 80, but they count different spawn points as 'new maps') >aliens have specific spawn points and won't move until you find them. This is not true for Terror Missions. >Forced to play with 1 base only. Unlike the original, you could have multiple bases. >Can't have multiple teams because of lacking multiple bases >The new movement system is fucking retarded and limits your options to tactically advance. >can't choose your base location based on whatever you want, can only choose from 5 pre-set points around the world. >no needing workshops to actually manufacture ammo or weapons, they're made instantly when you pay for them. >entire game revolves around satellites as fast as possible or you lose. >no skyranger on the battlefield as initial cover. >no grenade priming. >no time units. >cant pick up items mid battle from other soldiers, either dropped or dead. >no facing/turning. >stats reduced from 8 to 3. >can only carry 1 grenade or 1 medpack etc at a time >no inventory size to manage, allowing for no freedom in customization >The environment isn't fully destructible. In the original the scenario could turn into a wasteland if the fight was long enough. >Cover in this isn't functional, it's just arbitrary stat bonuses, adding yet more RNG to the game, whilst removing all tactical decisions and strategy because of it. >bullets go through a foot of concrete >No free aim >can only research one project at a time, no ability to split your scientists between multiple projects if you feel like it
XCASUAL: ENEMY UNKNOWN
Wait a second, it is a different game? God forbid things change. You post every difference and claim that somehow they are all infinitely worse than the original. Some of these are annoying, but to claim all of them are bad is just silly. Having characters spawn with 8 RANDOM stats (no way that these are ever remotely balanced either). Cover only makes you harder to hit? Isn't that the point of cover.... Shooting around corners in this game is infinitely easier, streamlined and more satisfying. I can only carry 1 item in this game? Well you can carry more if you are a support, one of the FOUR classes that add variety. Instead of just taking a giant back pack of gear, I have to pick my stuff carefully? God forbid that. The two games are similar, but to throw a list of differences out and not explain objectively why it might be worse is kinda silly. But then again, welcome to the internet where discussion is not allowed.
|
If you want the game to be exactly like original XCOM go play original XCOM.
|
In reply to Dozle : You've pointed out most of the differences between the two games very well. Lets analyze them a touch further.
I think these were improvements -Infinite Ammo -> I'm the commander, someone else can order the extra clips. -stats reduced from 8 to 3 -> i don't really miss the other stats, except maybe reactions -cant pick up items mid battle from other soldiers, either dropped or dead,can only carry 1 grenade or 1 medpack etc at a time &no inventory size to manage, allowing for no freedom in customization -> it's gamey as hell, but it makes for interesting choices, besides in old xcom everyone had a medkit, two proxy grenades and heavy plasma at the end anyway -no facing/turning -> my soldiers are quick and smart enough to check their sixes! -The new movement system is fucking retarded and limits your options to tactically advance., no time units -> i don't miss them, the two actions works great, once again, gamey, but good -no skyranger on the battlefield as initial cover -> it also doesn't have the deathtrap ramp -Forced to play with 1 base only. Unlike the original, you could have multiple bases, Can't have multiple teams because of lacking multiple bases. -> I had two main bases and a bunch of interceptor bases in the old one, one main and a bunch of interceptors doesn't seem like a bad change to me. -randomized classes(annoying as fuck) -> sure is, but so was getting a batch of 10 rookies where no one had reactions or aim over 40. -can't choose your base location based on whatever you want, can only choose from 5 pre-set points around the world. -> there were obviously better spots in the old one too. Switzerland was my favourite. can only research one project at a time -> did you ever split research? I sure didnt.
I think these were terrible -bullets go through a foot of concrete -> display bug ftl, i still laugh when it says miss but my guy clearly got tagged with 3 plasma rounds -No free aim -> agreed, I wanna shoot that cover with my lasers! -no grenade priming -> i miss hot potatoes! -The environment isn't fully destructible. In the original the scenario could turn into a wasteland if the fight was long enough. ->Agreed -No Base Invasion like in the original ->I miss it, though wouldn't work with the ant-farm base though and on any base you made yourself it was an easy hold. -entire game revolves around satellites as fast as possible or you lose -> Agreed -no needing workshops to actually manufacture ammo or weapons, they're made instantly when you pay for them -> Agreed -aliens have specific spawn points and won't move until you find them. This is not true for Terror Missions. -> Agreed
Mediocre -Cover in this isn't functional, it's just arbitrary stat bonuses, adding yet more RNG to the game, whilst removing all tactical decisions and strategy because of it. -> It worked the exact same way in the old XCom. -6 men squad instead of 14 (or 26 if you used the avenger) ->With the small maps 14-26 guys wouldn't work well at all. I'm not opposed to bigger maps with bigger squads though! -pre-designed maps that you play over and over again (There are around 30, lying devs say 80, but they count different spawn points as 'new maps') -> the maps themselves are better, but i agree. Not enough of them.
|
Canada8025 Posts
On October 25 2012 13:52 Dozle wrote: XCASUAL: ENEMY UNKNOWN While I do prefer UFO Defense over the new game and you do have some legitimate complaints, you're being a tad nitpicky. I'm bored and procrastinating on homework, so I'll bite and discuss this.
+ Show Spoiler [Looooong] +>Infinite Ammo. Meh. While it's certainly not realistic by any means, it's hardly the end of the world either. In UFO Defense you could cram reams of ammo on guys, so it was never really an issue. The only application of this that would still be relevant is having guys carry ammo for rocketeers and other heavy weapons users.
>No Base Invasion like in the original Base invasions were tense in the early game. I miss them quite a bit.
>6 men squad instead of 14 (or 26 if you used the avenger) This one genuinely hurts. I will say though, moving 20+ guys on the battlefield was kind of a chore at times, but it certainly added to the strategic depth of the game. It also made it so that losing several soldiers doesn't spell doom for the rest of the team. Finally, what kind of outfit sends only six soldiers to fight against a superior alien force!?
>randomized classes(annoying as fuck) This is indeed fucking annoying.
>pre-designed maps that you play over and over again (There are around 30, lying devs say 80, but they count different spawn points as 'new maps') For me, it was really disconcerting the first time I landed and realized that I'd played on this particular map before. Kinda wish they could've mixed up the maps more.
>aliens have specific spawn points and won't move until you find them. This is not true for Terror Missions. Some aliens patrol, but others do not. The AI is really quite exploitable once you figure it out.
>Forced to play with 1 base only. Unlike the original, you could have multiple bases. Multiple bases added to the feeling that X-Com as an organization was getting things done and winning the war against the aliens. From a practical standpoint though, it really isn't necessary. Yes, you could create bases solely for the purpose of manufacturing, research, or detection, but I don't think it added all that much to the game.
>Can't have multiple teams because of lacking multiple bases Having one base doesn't automatically preclude multiple teams - that only one Skyranger exists is purely a design decision. On that note though, not being able to field multiple teams simultaneously is pretty annoying.
>The new movement system is fucking retarded and limits your options to tactically advance. I like the TU system more than I do the new system, but you have to admit that movement is a lot more streamlined in this game.
>can't choose your base location based on whatever you want, can only choose from 5 pre-set points around the world. The only thing this really prevents is neat little challenges like starting in the antarctic. Strategic placement of the initial base in UFO Defense was pretty moot past "cover as much area as possible with your radar circle".
>no needing workshops to actually manufacture ammo or weapons, they're made instantly when you pay for them. I did find this a little weird, but whatever. It doesn't change that much in the grand scheme of things. At worst, you get your equipment several days slower than you otherwise would.
>entire game revolves around satellites as fast as possible or you lose. The abduction missions and panic just annoy me in general.
>no skyranger on the battlefield as initial cover. I talked about this a couple pages back, but getting rid of the meat grinder that was exiting the Skyranger has its pros and cons. I was a little sad that I couldn't fly up onto the Skyranger using Archangel armor though.
>no grenade priming. lol. The grenade priming system was silly, and you know it. Running around with 0-turn primed grenades, while fun and useful, is utterly ridiculous.
>no time units. This is repeating your complaint about the movement/action system.
>cant pick up items mid battle from other soldiers, either dropped or dead. This is legitimately annoying. Not being able to retrieve a medkit or arc thrower is aggravating.
>no facing/turning. I'm neither for nor against this. It was interesting when coupled with the TU system, but I have no idea how it'd be managed with the two action stuff. As an aside, running out of TU's because of turning was really fucking irritating.
>stats reduced from 8 to 3. Whatever. I do take issue with how every soldier is exactly the same though.
>can only carry 1 grenade or 1 medpack etc at a time >no inventory size to manage, allowing for no freedom in customization The point of this was to force people to think about what item would best suit a given soldier, making them more specialized. I dunno how well this works though, considering I just slapped scopes on everyone in the endgame.
>The environment isn't fully destructible. In the original the scenario could turn into a wasteland if the fight was long enough. All cover is destructible, but terrain is not (or at least I don't think so. I don't recall rockets blasting chunks out of hills). It's a little disappointing, but overall, it doesn't really affect much.
>Cover in this isn't functional, it's just arbitrary stat bonuses, adding yet more RNG to the game, whilst removing all tactical decisions and strategy because of it. UFO Defense was interesting in that cover was less a hit% modifier, and more "shit that can get between a bullet and my soldier". Implying that the new cover system adds more RNG is silly though, considering that it does the exact same thing as in the original - increasing the probability that your soldiers won't get shot.
>bullets go through a foot of concrete Bugs bugs bugs. Not much else to say about this. -_-
>No free aim Having to expend explosives to make holes is kinda annoying.
>can only research one project at a time, no ability to split your scientists between multiple projects if you feel like it Be honest, when was the last time you actually split up research in UFO Defense?
In the end, targeting a casual audience isn't necessarily a bad thing. Yes, the game lacks some of the strategical depth of UFO Defense, but it's still fun in its own right. That said, I'm curious as to what the modding community will come up with for this game.
|
Really like the game.
Unfortunately, getting gamebreaking bugs every five missions or so. Like enemies randomly disappearing off the map, missions failing to recognize victory conditions, money randomly disappearing*, squad members going permanently AWOL...
Not sure why this is. Severely sapping my morale, though.
*Seriously, had a really good Ironman Classic game going until half of my group decided to go on vacation and my credits got set from 298 to -90.
|
Canada8025 Posts
I actually wonder what their QC process was like. I mean, given the number of bugs/problems people have reported, surely they should've run into SOME of them during testing.
|
Haven't encountered many bugs myself to be honest. The amount of bugs in Xcom isn't really out of the ordinary. Most games these days are plagued by bugs at release. They should do a better job of fixing stuff though.
From the numbers i've seen they developers made the right choice when it comes to making the game more accessible. The game seems to be a major success. Pretty sure many people who bought enemy unknown haven't played the UFO series before and those people couldnt care less about stuff like inventory management and having to face the right direction... Myself included.
|
Currently 4 biggest bugs I ran into and would like fixed are (in order of needing to be fixed): 1. Teleporting/falling into earth enemies. 2. Mind Controled targets when dying forcing your team to lose will as if squad member died. Also when your guy gets MCed and you kill the caster your MCed guy gets will penalty 3. Enemies able to target and shoot your guys when your guys cannot see or shoot them back. Just happened to me today, Elite Muton attacked my Heavy and my Heavy could not shoot back. They were both at same level and both behind low cover directly opposite each other. This also happened to me with a Sectopod shooting at a guy in full cover that could not see the sectopod but sectopod had higher ground so I assumed that is what gave him vision. 4. When playing in multilevel parts of maps like alien ships, each time I change a soldier camera is not on same level as soldier and roof blocks vision. It is irritating to need to adjust camera level at least 6 times per round.
|
On October 25 2012 16:13 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Haven't encountered many bugs myself to be honest. The amount of bugs in Xcom isn't really out of the ordinary. Most games these days are plagued by bugs at release. They should do a better job of fixing stuff though.
From the numbers i've seen they developers made the right choice when it comes to making the game more accessible. The game seems to be a major success. Pretty sure many people who bought enemy unknown haven't played the UFO series before and those people couldnt care less about stuff like inventory management and having to face the right direction... Myself included.
You are wrong, XCOM is without a doubt much more bug ridden than most games with this production scale. Sure many games have bugs at launch, some causing a lot of issues but the pure amount of bugs in XCOM is definitely not the standard. Many of them aren't exactly bugs either but just issues in gameplay that you'd expect to be fixed during a beta.
Don't get me wrong, I like the game and most of these issues can be easily overlooked but still...
|
On October 25 2012 19:50 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 16:13 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Haven't encountered many bugs myself to be honest. The amount of bugs in Xcom isn't really out of the ordinary. Most games these days are plagued by bugs at release. They should do a better job of fixing stuff though.
From the numbers i've seen they developers made the right choice when it comes to making the game more accessible. The game seems to be a major success. Pretty sure many people who bought enemy unknown haven't played the UFO series before and those people couldnt care less about stuff like inventory management and having to face the right direction... Myself included.
You are wrong, XCOM is without a doubt much more bug ridden than most games with this production scale. Sure many games have bugs at launch, some causing a lot of issues but the pure amount of bugs in XCOM is definitely not the standard. Many of them aren't exactly bugs either but just issues in gameplay that you'd expect to be fixed during a beta. Don't get me wrong, I like the game and most of these issues can be easily overlooked but still...
you make it sound like this game is utterly unplayable. that is simply not the case. i got some glitches at best.
|
On October 25 2012 19:58 GrandSmurf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:50 nihlon wrote:On October 25 2012 16:13 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Haven't encountered many bugs myself to be honest. The amount of bugs in Xcom isn't really out of the ordinary. Most games these days are plagued by bugs at release. They should do a better job of fixing stuff though.
From the numbers i've seen they developers made the right choice when it comes to making the game more accessible. The game seems to be a major success. Pretty sure many people who bought enemy unknown haven't played the UFO series before and those people couldnt care less about stuff like inventory management and having to face the right direction... Myself included.
You are wrong, XCOM is without a doubt much more bug ridden than most games with this production scale. Sure many games have bugs at launch, some causing a lot of issues but the pure amount of bugs in XCOM is definitely not the standard. Many of them aren't exactly bugs either but just issues in gameplay that you'd expect to be fixed during a beta. Don't get me wrong, I like the game and most of these issues can be easily overlooked but still... you make it sound like this game is utterly unplayable. that is simply not the case. i got some glitches at best. with the number of ppl complaining that bugs broke their game and prevented them from advancing, it's more than glitches. It's game breaking bugs, just because you and I haven't encountered them doesn't mean they aren't there.
Although i bet half the ppl complaining about bugs, is because they haven't bought the game and therefore didn't get patches ;p
|
I could live with everything else that was changed but no shot simulation? Right now it's just a roll with some stat/distance parameters to hit an enemy and if it misses, another roll to destroy a random piece of environment in the line of fire. You can't miss and hit another alien or hit one of your operatives. In the original you could just look at the game world and ignore the hit % that the game showed. Now you ignore the game world and only look at the %. Just because they didn't implement this means that a lot of shoddy game systems had to be put in, like the cover system. Too often the game doesn't count an alien as flanked when it's next to some cover that clearly is not anywhere near the line of fire. Another example would be the rocket launcher that hits pixel perfect 90% of the time and goes exactly 1 blast radius wide either left or right 10% of the time.
|
On October 25 2012 20:26 Teddyman wrote: I could live with everything else that was changed but no shot simulation? Right now it's just a roll with some stat/distance parameters to hit an enemy and if it misses, another roll to destroy a random piece of environment in the line of fire. You can't miss and hit another alien or hit one of your operatives. In the original you could just look at the game world and ignore the hit % that the game showed. Now you ignore the game world and only look at the %. Just because they didn't implement this means that a lot of shoddy game systems had to be put in, like the cover system. Too often the game doesn't count an alien as flanked when it's next to some cover that clearly is not anywhere near the line of fire. Another example would be the rocket launcher that hits pixel perfect 90% of the time and goes exactly 1 blast radius wide either left or right 10% of the time.
Just lazy/bad programmers
|
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: In reply to Dozle : You've pointed out most of the differences between the two games very well. Lets analyze them a touch further.
Mediocre Cover in this isn't functional, it's just arbitrary stat bonuses, adding yet more RNG to the game, whilst removing all tactical decisions and strategy because of it. -> It worked the exact same way in the old XCom.
The cover system worked very differently in the old XCom. In principle I like the idea of the new cover system and I think it could work, but in my opinion it doesn't.
The prime reason is because it is impossible to predict if you're able to hit someone and how high your hit chance will be as soon as the environment becomes a bit more complex. It obviously works fine if you and the alien are behind cover and there is open space between you and the alien.
Due to the way the movement system works this problem is actually exacerbated, because you can't make small corrections to get a better angle. So you end up having to pray that you pick the right spot.
The most important difference is that there is no full cover. In the old XCom you could move your soldiers into positions where they would not get hit. This is impossible to do in the new XCom, sure you can hunger down and so on, but at the end of the day, there is no saftey unless you're standing on the other side of the map with a sniper rifle.
Also lets have a closer look at the improvements:
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -Infinite Ammo -> I'm the commander, someone else can order the extra clips.
It is not about ordering the clips, it was part of the resource management of the game. I understand that a lot of people weren't too fond about the simulation part, so I do understand why they removed it. But I like simulations, so what I did hate was the fact that I had to individually resupply all my soldiers before every mission. But this not a gameplay problem, but a problem of the game interface.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -stats reduced from 8 to 3 -> i don't really miss the other stats, except maybe reactions
I do miss them and they added a lot of uniqueness to your soldiers, which made them special and made loosing soldiers really painful. Now it's like, oh I lost another support, hope I have another one sitting in the barracks. It is still a big deal to loose soldiers, but it feels a lot more generic.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -cant pick up items mid battle from other soldiers, either dropped or dead,can only carry 1 grenade or 1 medpack etc at a time &no inventory size to manage, allowing for no freedom in customization -> it's gamey as hell, but it makes for interesting choices, besides in old xcom everyone had a medkit, two proxy grenades and heavy plasma at the end anyway
I remember having blaster launchers on some, the Psi-amp thingies, sufficient ammunition, laser rifles to take out walls without having to waste ammo, etc.... But yes the new interface could work nicely, but it just seems so artificial. Scope or grenade? What kind of choice is that? It just feels so gamey and leaves nothing of the combat simulation feeling.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -no facing/turning -> my soldiers are quick and smart enough to check their sixes!
Turn-based game =/= Turn-based reality... It's up to you to decide how you interpret the ingame actions. Also squads never randomly turn their heads. Seeing an enemy means shit if the rifle you're holding is pointed the other way.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -The new movement system is fucking retarded and limits your options to tactically advance., no time units -> i don't miss them, the two actions works great, once again, gamey, but good
I covered earlier why I think it doesn't work that well.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -no skyranger on the battlefield as initial cover -> it also doesn't have the deathtrap ramp
No it doesn't have a ramp. Instead you move your first soldier, pull three packs on a terror mission and get slaughtered by enemies before you can move into cover and set up your snipers. I still get these... oh shit this mission is over before it started moments.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -Forced to play with 1 base only. Unlike the original, you could have multiple bases, Can't have multiple teams because of lacking multiple bases. -> I had two main bases and a bunch of interceptor bases in the old one, one main and a bunch of interceptors doesn't seem like a bad change to me.
How did you cover the globe with two bases in the old one? Anyway they just simplified the entire thing and in reality it doesn't play out that differently. Most auxiliary bases had minimal staffing in the old XCom. You needed some in case of a base attack but they mostly were there to house interceptors and then maybe one additional full base to make sure you reached all crash sites in time. Again the feeling is less simulation and more gamey.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -randomized classes(annoying as fuck) -> sure is, but so was getting a batch of 10 rookies where no one had reactions or aim over 40.
Yeah but you know which rookies to start training and which were absolutely hopeless. Now you just cross your fingers and hope that you find two snipers.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: -can't choose your base location based on whatever you want, can only choose from 5 pre-set points around the world. -> there were obviously better spots in the old one too. Switzerland was my favourite.
Yes there were and people would argue about the better spots... all the time... In this game there is no argument. You need money to build satellites. More satellites = more money and less panic. So it is obvious which bonus to choose. And there was this nice feeling of putting your base directly on top of your hometown.
On October 25 2012 14:19 TheUnderking wrote: can only research one project at a time -> did you ever split research? I sure didnt.
Well I agree on that one. Not being able to split research is really not an issue.
TL;DR: The new XCOM is much more "gamey" and most simulation elements have been removed to allow for a more streamlined gameplay, which some people including me dislike.
|
That TL;DR sounds like the game got consolified!
|
Very nice post BlueSpace. I agree with most of it, although most of it does not bother me as much. Two things I would like to change is that you can pick up items from fallen allies and that full cover gives critical immunity while hunker down would give half damage in addition. Also I hate how although there is cover between you and the target only cover that works is the one that the target stands next to.
And maps need to be bigger and more random. I hate how most Alien ship maps are you start at one edge and always move to other one where the ship is. Also I don't like how when you shoot down very small UFOs they got like 5+ enemies there to kill where in old UFO it was 1-2.
|
Damn useless rookies.
|
Some more shit from Classic ironman: Failed this mission but actually still completed the game.
So damn evil!
|
|
|
|
|