Beta Balance Update #10 - Page 17
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crbox
Canada1176 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote: It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared. But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. Thanks for being the voice of reason...I hope this won't be lost in a sea of whining. Infestors might be too good after patch 10 (we'll see). But they certainly weren't good enough before then. We're getting closer to the optimal level. | ||
n00b1n8R
Australia45 Posts
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:51 crbox wrote: Huh I don't get it why did they like buffed the hell out of fungal lol. Not really following the Hots scene but isn't it a general consensus that Fungal is overpowered? No, it's not. Fungal is pretty much useless in Hots now. Edit: I mean pre this patch, don't jump at that shit | ||
decado90
United States480 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:50 Insoleet wrote: The brainless whining at each page of this thread is pretty annoying actually. Sorry if it hurts, was not what i intended to do. Yea brainless whining. Everyone should just shut up and enjoy GSL Blizzard Cup. | ||
Valerian
Korea (South)7 Posts
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:51 crbox wrote: Huh I don't get it why did they like buffed the hell out of fungal lol. Not really following the Hots scene but isn't it a general consensus that Fungal is overpowered? It used to be, before it became a projectile and was nerfed to range 8. Range 10 with a speed of 15 is probably AS good as it was pre-patch. | ||
Khalleb
Canada1909 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:52 MilesTeg wrote: Thanks for being the voice of reason...I hope this won't be lost in a sea of whining. Infestors might be too good after patch 10 (we'll see). But they certainly weren't good enough before then. We're getting closer to the optimal level. yea now zerg gonna have to micro the infestor to bring them at rang 8 then fg | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:48 iEchoic wrote: This isn't a good analogy because the new fungal travels the 10 range faster than it used to travel the 8 range. If they didn't increase the speed as well, this wouldn't be an issue. Imagine in your example that the fungal traveled 20 range faster than it currently travels 10. That's the proper analogy, and yeah, that would be broken. a fair point I guess, tho I don't see how that would be broken. You'd still never hit anything even with the new speed if the distance was 20 and they were watching. but I'ma edit that part out as it's unnecessary anyway I think. | ||
BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote: It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared. But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and spells despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. | ||
Nazeron
Canada1046 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:53 Valerian wrote: Do people don't use their brain? IT'S A PROJECTILE. Which means more range = nerf = more time to micro. Use some of your head to think why did Blizzard made a speed buff to the projectile. It's just fungal now covers the 10 range faster than it does the 8 range... | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:53 Crawdad wrote: It used to be, before it became a projectile and was nerfed to range 8. Range 10 with a speed of 15 is probably AS good as it was pre-patch. He knows this without using the ability against real units or playing the game. Why? Because the numbers are larger and he can work out the math in his mind. | ||
JDub
United States976 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:53 Valerian wrote: Do people don't use their brain? IT'S A PROJECTILE. Which means more range = nerf = more time to micro. Use some of your head to think why did Blizzard made a speed buff to the projectile. More range is not a nerf, it's just not as big of a buff as it would be if it weren't a projectile. I think what you meant to say is that "projectile + range buff = nerf". | ||
Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
i dont even care anymore, its just really sad, from terran perspective the addon really is just another patch with tweaks and half assed units. gonna buy the addon regardless just to play the campaign but thats probably it, i played so much hots beta in the last couple of weeks and i just dont see myself willing to spend time with a game were its just so boring as terran ~_~; | ||
kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:55 Plansix wrote: He knows this without using the ability against real units or playing the game. Why? Because the numbers are larger and he can work out the math in his mind. Well...yeah maths does solve the question of whether or not this is a nerf or a buff. Why don't you try and work out which one? | ||
OGzan
United States289 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote: It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. To be fair to zergs, I was able to dodge fungles with phoenixes that were at a dead stop. I saw the infestor waddling up and moved them away. I think the zerg got two of the 8 had with the fungle. I think the only way he could have hit the majority of them was if I wasn't looking at the screen. | ||
InVerno
258 Posts
So basically it's a siege tank without siege mode, with the 2x of the splash damage, 1psi less, moves cloacked and faster and every unit hitted slowly dies due to chain fungal. Eh ah, got a very strong anti air too. At the cost of a bit gas more than a tank. Seems legit. | ||
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