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On December 19 2012 05:24 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler + yeh, depressing. i was serious too btw, no more mech for me. 100% bio TvP HOTS now. Disgusting. On December 19 2012 01:00 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 00:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:Assuming reasonable intelligence I think even someone who has never played SC2 in his life could understand that isn't fair. The toss had 0/0/0 upgrades to 1/2 for terran, both players were even in supply, this was a highly highly HIGHLY defensive position, and was the first engagement of the game. Perhaps we have to start asking ourselves does Blizzard have a hidden agenda? Note that the toss didn't use any functionality added in HotS, so it's not like "the beta is in flux and things happen" but that it's been like that even in the relatively highly mature WoL, and this video doesn't even address the other excellent point by Vindicare concerning toss air forcing vikings thus automatically winning the game. I mean assuming reasonable intelligence (they're all college graduates) then I can't think of any explanation for this besides a hidden agenda. Well that game made it clear that we can't open heavy hellion pressure, and can't tech to to quickly. Avilo simply had battle units to defend. Obviously this is a balance flaw (because pushes like that should never work), but I still think that push could be held by a different opening It definitely could have been held by a different opening...a BIO opening...HEUHEUHEU On December 19 2012 02:07 iS.Axslav wrote: Uh you guys do realize the protoss army was close to twice the army value there right? if he wasn't so far behind he would have held that without a problem. 2 thors + 4 tanks + 7 hellions + 6 marines + raven = 2300 minerals + 1100 gas 23 zealots + 6 archons + 4 immortals + 4 stalkers + sentry + mothership core = 4700 minerals + 1550 gas (think he made archons from dts not sure) That would be fine logic except you forgot: Terran is 2/1, pre-sieged, on his half of the map, with the addition of every single one of his mining SCVS blocking. Protoss is 0/0/0, walking up a tight choke, into a supply depot ramp, into a bunker, into a PDD, into siege tank fire, with 1A and zero micro, and had already lost 10+ probes from hellion harrass. This should not be possible. On December 19 2012 03:32 UPro-BW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:12 Markwerf wrote:please stop posting this game from that whiner. The army cost for the protoss is twice as much.. Yes you can beat through a fortified terran then if the armies aren't too big yet... that would never ever ever ever happen in BW. even if the protoss was 40 supply ahead. 1aing up a ramp into fortified terran position with tanks already in siege mode is fucking ridiculous. Exactly. It's even worse when u watch the game and at the end you realize the Terran (me) was 2/1 upgrade while the Protoss was 0/0/0. So much for defender's advantage right?
You forgot another one: P was warping in your base while attacking you and his units spent lot of time trying to kill your factory there,but finally he realised and made them attack as well.Wish I could have the Campain "DropPods" to send marauders and marines in Ps base,but yeah,maybe I should change race in HotS???
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But yet despite that, Protoss has multiple ways of not only beating but CRUSHING mech armies in straight up engagements that there's no real need to ever explore the old BW strategies.
I mech'd for nearly the whole WOL duration, and i mech on HOTS too, and i have to say : NO.
If a protoss army with equal supply/ressources is able to crush you in a direct fight, you're doing it wrong.
It may be your positionning, it may be your composition, it may be your spellcasters usage, but if the protoss can 1A into your army, except if he has 30 carriers (in which case you should have 25 BCs and 10 ravens anyway) , it's not "mech" fault, it's the player fault.
As we often say in my school, "the problem is between the keyboard and the chair". It applies perfectly to TvP mech.
I was able to make mech works in WoL, at least at the high master lvl. and when i say "work", it means "able to handle early game allins/pressure, find ways to be able to win in midgame or stay in good shap, and how to basically autowin lategame". And after basically 1.5 year of refining mech play in WoL, i still didn't found anything i couldnt beat with good scouting/composition/positionning. And well, i don't see why it wouldnt be possible to repeat this in HoTs. The only problem is people mindsets, which is too much focused on "try the obvious (super economical or harassing opening, often unsafe, into massing tanks midgame, into massing vikings lategame) stuff, see it fail, say it doesn't work without looking for any solution at all".
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On December 19 2012 04:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 04:03 p1cKLes wrote:On December 19 2012 03:50 GinDo wrote: The problem is that tanks just have 2 many weaknesses for a 3 food unit. There expensive, slow, have a min range, and a setup time, and have a little more hp then a maruader. Not to mention the dmg nerf Agreed. I think it all boils down to one unit, the tank. It actually boils down to two units. The Tank itself in a vacuum while not as powerful as its Brood War counter part would be ok vs Protoss if it wasn't for one glaring problem. Immortals. Ok so, Protoss needed a Siege Breaker unit to help vs Tank lines after seeing the match up from Brood War. Well in HoTS Protoss now has TWO siege breaker units: The Immortal and the Tempest and the Tempest fills that role in a much more interesting less of a face smashing way. There's no longer any need for the Immortal to be as strong vs the Siege Tank as it currently is. The Mothership Core prevents the 1-1-1 from ever having the power it once did and the Tempest provides Protoss a late game answer to Siege Tanks the same way Broodlords do. The Immortal isn't a problem ONLY because it counters Tanks though, Ultralisks do also in much the same way. But Ultralisks can be defeated by one of the Siege Tank's chief running mates: the Thor. That doesn't work in TvP because the Thor hardly fares any better vs the Immortal than the Siege Tank does. You have in the Immortal a ground unit that is effectively so powerful vs both of the core Mech units (both of which cost as much or more than it does) that it completely removes any reason for wanting to build them in the first place. Don't forget chargelots and archons.
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On December 19 2012 06:51 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote + But yet despite that, Protoss has multiple ways of not only beating but CRUSHING mech armies in straight up engagements that there's no real need to ever explore the old BW strategies.
I mech'd for nearly the whole WOL duration, and i mech on HOTS too, and i have to say : NO. If a protoss army with equal supply/ressources is able to crush you in a direct fight, you're doing it wrong. It may be your positionning, it may be your composition, it may be your spellcasters usage, but if the protoss can 1A into your army, except if he has 30 carriers (in which case you should have 25 BCs and 10 ravens anyway) , it's not "mech" fault, it's the player fault. As we often say in my school, "the problem is between the keyboard and the chair". It applies perfectly to TvP mech. I was able to make mech works in WoL, at least at the high master lvl. and when i say "work", it means "able to handle early game allins/pressure, find ways to be able to win in midgame or stay in good shap, and how to basically autowin lategame". And after basically 1.5 year of refining mech play in WoL, i still didn't found anything i couldnt beat with good scouting/composition/positionning. And well, i don't see why it wouldnt be possible to repeat this in HoTs. The only problem is people mindsets, which is too much focused on "try the obvious (super economical or harassing opening, often unsafe, into massing tanks midgame, into massing vikings lategame) stuff, see it fail, say it doesn't work without looking for any solution at all".
Thank you for not just automatically turning your post into a "oh my god the sky is falling. What ever do we do!?" post about mech.
We can always improve.
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On December 19 2012 06:51 Lyyna wrote:+ Show Spoiler + But yet despite that, Protoss has multiple ways of not only beating but CRUSHING mech armies in straight up engagements that there's no real need to ever explore the old BW strategies.
I mech'd for nearly the whole WOL duration, and i mech on HOTS too, and i have to say : NO. If a protoss army with equal supply/ressources is able to crush you in a direct fight, you're doing it wrong. It may be your positionning, it may be your composition, it may be your spellcasters usage, but if the protoss can 1A into your army, except if he has 30 carriers (in which case you should have 25 BCs and 10 ravens anyway) , it's not "mech" fault, it's the player fault. As we often say in my school, "the problem is between the keyboard and the chair". It applies perfectly to TvP mech. I was able to make mech works in WoL, at least at the high master lvl. and when i say "work", it means "able to handle early game allins/pressure, find ways to be able to win in midgame or stay in good shap, and how to basically autowin lategame". And after basically 1.5 year of refining mech play in WoL, i still didn't found anything i couldnt beat with good scouting/composition/positionning. And well, i don't see why it wouldnt be possible to repeat this in HoTs. The only problem is people mindsets, which is too much focused on "try the obvious (super economical or harassing opening, often unsafe, into massing tanks midgame, into massing vikings lategame) stuff, see it fail, say it doesn't work without looking for any solution at all".
My Friend,I am still waiting for your replays and asked you 2-3 days ago.Wanna see you making mech work on big maps.Your latest replays were on Shakuras and Ohana.No maps like this in HotS.
I write you I wnat see you go for mech on Howling Peaks,Star Station,Antiga Cross Positions,Korhal City and Daybrek.Got no replays of all this,so please try to post them.I dont need you to be GM,only Diamond is Ok for me,as for now,me being Platinum T,cant beat P even in Silver if go mech...
From your old WoL replays from August to November You got ONLY 10 TvP wins and replays.As we can see you go BIO sometimes vs P.Still think only 10 games in 3 months is not Mech=VIABLE,dont you think?
My apologize,you got ONE victory going mech on Daybreak.As I can see you got 5 Thors,5 banshees,10 Hellions,2 ravens,5 ghosts and gues what??? 2!!!! TANKS!!! WTF? This is how your mech works?thank you,but "YOUR MECH" will never be considered real mech with 2 tanks and they even were unsieged....so lame
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On December 19 2012 06:51 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote + But yet despite that, Protoss has multiple ways of not only beating but CRUSHING mech armies in straight up engagements that there's no real need to ever explore the old BW strategies.
I mech'd for nearly the whole WOL duration, and i mech on HOTS too, and i have to say : NO. If a protoss army with equal supply/ressources is able to crush you in a direct fight, you're doing it wrong. It may be your positionning, it may be your composition, it may be your spellcasters usage, but if the protoss can 1A into your army, except if he has 30 carriers (in which case you should have 25 BCs and 10 ravens anyway) , it's not "mech" fault, it's the player fault. As we often say in my school, "the problem is between the keyboard and the chair". It applies perfectly to TvP mech. I was able to make mech works in WoL, at least at the high master lvl. and when i say "work", it means "able to handle early game allins/pressure, find ways to be able to win in midgame or stay in good shap, and how to basically autowin lategame". And after basically 1.5 year of refining mech play in WoL, i still didn't found anything i couldnt beat with good scouting/composition/positionning. And well, i don't see why it wouldnt be possible to repeat this in HoTs. The only problem is people mindsets, which is too much focused on "try the obvious (super economical or harassing opening, often unsafe, into massing tanks midgame, into massing vikings lategame) stuff, see it fail, say it doesn't work without looking for any solution at all".
You play a Ghost Mech style, I've read your guide a while ago and I've used it and it works so far pretty well in WoL at countering most of the blind a-move stuff that Protoss can do.
However, HOTS is not WoL and your style is actually much weaker in TvP in HOTS and I wish you had a beta key so you could see what I'm talking about.
Your style works vs Protoss ground forces but doesn't work vs the new options Protoss now has in the air. Your early pushes to deny thirds are weaker because of the Mothership Core. Your Battlecruiser transition is absolute fodder to Tempests because of their 80 damage per massive shot from 15 range (seriously Tempests vs Battlecruiser is actually hilariously one sided). Void Rays are a lot more effective vs not just Siege Tanks but also Vikings in HoTS.
Please read my previous long post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375338¤tpage=42#830
As I've said in that post, if it was one hard counter unit or one tech path that we had to worry about Mech wouldn't be in such a bad place, but the fact is even if we are totally prepared to handle one of the tech paths available that can crush a mech army, we can't be prepared for the other one because of how exclusive the counters to Immortals vs Air Units are. That Protoss has the ability to tech switch much faster than Terran can only compounds the problem.
Protoss has access to options against Mech that it doesn't have access to in WoL thanks to the Tempest and Void Ray. So while the options for Protoss fighting Mech has actually INCREASED, Mech has only the widow Mine as a new tool vs Protoss tech options and it doesn't really have the supply efficiency needed to fill that role.
As I've said in other posts, Protoss in HOTS now has TWO siege breaker units as well as access to the Mothership Core which DRASTICALLY reduces the effectiveness of early mech pushes. The presence of Oracles allows for more effective air harassment in the early and midgame if the Protoss player chooses to use it and the Void Ray and Tempest are threats from the Air that are as powerful as Carriers (nearly) in WoL yet are available much earlier and are effective in fewer numbers.
I respect you Lynna and your play your guide has helped me in more than a few games but I'm afraid when it comes to HOTS it is outdated. Ghosts are not the catch all answer they are in WoL because Ghosts while still incredibly useful vs everything Protoss has on the ground do not do anything to counter the new threats facing Mech from the Air.
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On December 19 2012 06:51 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote + But yet despite that, Protoss has multiple ways of not only beating but CRUSHING mech armies in straight up engagements that there's no real need to ever explore the old BW strategies.
I mech'd for nearly the whole WOL duration, and i mech on HOTS too, and i have to say : NO. If a protoss army with equal supply/ressources is able to crush you in a direct fight, you're doing it wrong. It may be your positionning, it may be your composition, it may be your spellcasters usage, but if the protoss can 1A into your army, except if he has 30 carriers (in which case you should have 25 BCs and 10 ravens anyway) , it's not "mech" fault, it's the player fault. As we often say in my school, "the problem is between the keyboard and the chair". It applies perfectly to TvP mech. I was able to make mech works in WoL, at least at the high master lvl. and when i say "work", it means "able to handle early game allins/pressure, find ways to be able to win in midgame or stay in good shap, and how to basically autowin lategame". And after basically 1.5 year of refining mech play in WoL, i still didn't found anything i couldnt beat with good scouting/composition/positionning. And well, i don't see why it wouldnt be possible to repeat this in HoTs. The only problem is people mindsets, which is too much focused on "try the obvious (super economical or harassing opening, often unsafe, into massing tanks midgame, into massing vikings lategame) stuff, see it fail, say it doesn't work without looking for any solution at all".
Well, now that Avilo has given up on Mech TvP, I think we need to find another flag ship.. :D Go get some good quality stream, replays and lots of free time.. :D
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On December 19 2012 07:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 06:51 Lyyna wrote: But yet despite that, Protoss has multiple ways of not only beating but CRUSHING mech armies in straight up engagements that there's no real need to ever explore the old BW strategies.
I mech'd for nearly the whole WOL duration, and i mech on HOTS too, and i have to say : NO. If a protoss army with equal supply/ressources is able to crush you in a direct fight, you're doing it wrong. It may be your positionning, it may be your composition, it may be your spellcasters usage, but if the protoss can 1A into your army, except if he has 30 carriers (in which case you should have 25 BCs and 10 ravens anyway) , it's not "mech" fault, it's the player fault. As we often say in my school, "the problem is between the keyboard and the chair". It applies perfectly to TvP mech. I was able to make mech works in WoL, at least at the high master lvl. and when i say "work", it means "able to handle early game allins/pressure, find ways to be able to win in midgame or stay in good shap, and how to basically autowin lategame". And after basically 1.5 year of refining mech play in WoL, i still didn't found anything i couldnt beat with good scouting/composition/positionning. And well, i don't see why it wouldnt be possible to repeat this in HoTs. The only problem is people mindsets, which is too much focused on "try the obvious (super economical or harassing opening, often unsafe, into massing tanks midgame, into massing vikings lategame) stuff, see it fail, say it doesn't work without looking for any solution at all". You play a Ghost Mech style, I've read your guide a while ago and I've used it and it works so far pretty well in WoL at countering most of the blind a-move stuff that Protoss can do. However, HOTS is not WoL and your style is actually much weaker in TvP in HOTS and I wish you had a beta key so you could see what I'm talking about. Your style works vs Protoss ground forces but doesn't work vs the new options Protoss now has in the air. Your early pushes to deny thirds are weaker because of the Mothership Core. Your Battlecruiser transition is absolute fodder to Tempests because of their 80 damage per massive shot from 15 range (seriously Tempests vs Battlecruiser is actually hilariously one sided). Void Rays are a lot more effective vs not just Siege Tanks but also Vikings in HoTS. Please read my previous long post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375338¤tpage=42#830As I've said in that post, if it was one hard counter unit or one tech path that we had to worry about Mech wouldn't be in such a bad place, but the fact is even if we are totally prepared to handle one of the tech paths available that can crush a mech army, we can't be prepared for the other one because of how exclusive the counters to Immortals vs Air Units are. That Protoss has the ability to tech switch much faster than Terran can only compounds the problem. Protoss has access to options against Mech that it doesn't have access to in WoL thanks to the Tempest and Void Ray. So while the options for Protoss fighting Mech has actually INCREASED, Mech has only the widow Mine as a new tool vs Protoss tech options and it doesn't really have the supply efficiency needed to fill that role. As I've said in other posts, Protoss in HOTS now has TWO siege breaker units as well as access to the Mothership Core which DRASTICALLY reduces the effectiveness of early mech pushes. The presence of Oracles allows for more effective air harassment in the early and midgame if the Protoss player chooses to use it and the Void Ray and Tempest are threats from the Air that are as powerful as Carriers (nearly) in WoL yet are available much earlier and are effective in fewer numbers. I respect you Lynna and your play your guide has helped me in more than a few games but I'm afraid when it comes to HOTS it is outdated. Ghosts are not the catch all answer they are in WoL because Ghosts while still incredibly useful vs everything Protoss has on the ground do not do anything to counter the new threats facing Mech from the Air.
I think Raven is answer to both of those problems you are talking about.. HSM 1-shots Immortal and PDD shuts down Tempests completly. I think the new deathball for Terran mech will be Thor/Raven/Viking/Ghost.. Bc is not so important now that Thor is actually decent against heavy air and yamato is ready a while after you build your first Raven. Battle Hellions and Thors without energy should help you to get there.. We will se, I can't wait for some replays of Lyyna, because I like to steal his BOs.. :D
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spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work.
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On December 19 2012 07:44 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 19 2012 06:51 Lyyna wrote: But yet despite that, Protoss has multiple ways of not only beating but CRUSHING mech armies in straight up engagements that there's no real need to ever explore the old BW strategies.
I mech'd for nearly the whole WOL duration, and i mech on HOTS too, and i have to say : NO. If a protoss army with equal supply/ressources is able to crush you in a direct fight, you're doing it wrong. It may be your positionning, it may be your composition, it may be your spellcasters usage, but if the protoss can 1A into your army, except if he has 30 carriers (in which case you should have 25 BCs and 10 ravens anyway) , it's not "mech" fault, it's the player fault. As we often say in my school, "the problem is between the keyboard and the chair". It applies perfectly to TvP mech. I was able to make mech works in WoL, at least at the high master lvl. and when i say "work", it means "able to handle early game allins/pressure, find ways to be able to win in midgame or stay in good shap, and how to basically autowin lategame". And after basically 1.5 year of refining mech play in WoL, i still didn't found anything i couldnt beat with good scouting/composition/positionning. And well, i don't see why it wouldnt be possible to repeat this in HoTs. The only problem is people mindsets, which is too much focused on "try the obvious (super economical or harassing opening, often unsafe, into massing tanks midgame, into massing vikings lategame) stuff, see it fail, say it doesn't work without looking for any solution at all". You play a Ghost Mech style, I've read your guide a while ago and I've used it and it works so far pretty well in WoL at countering most of the blind a-move stuff that Protoss can do. However, HOTS is not WoL and your style is actually much weaker in TvP in HOTS and I wish you had a beta key so you could see what I'm talking about. Your style works vs Protoss ground forces but doesn't work vs the new options Protoss now has in the air. Your early pushes to deny thirds are weaker because of the Mothership Core. Your Battlecruiser transition is absolute fodder to Tempests because of their 80 damage per massive shot from 15 range (seriously Tempests vs Battlecruiser is actually hilariously one sided). Void Rays are a lot more effective vs not just Siege Tanks but also Vikings in HoTS. Please read my previous long post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375338¤tpage=42#830As I've said in that post, if it was one hard counter unit or one tech path that we had to worry about Mech wouldn't be in such a bad place, but the fact is even if we are totally prepared to handle one of the tech paths available that can crush a mech army, we can't be prepared for the other one because of how exclusive the counters to Immortals vs Air Units are. That Protoss has the ability to tech switch much faster than Terran can only compounds the problem. Protoss has access to options against Mech that it doesn't have access to in WoL thanks to the Tempest and Void Ray. So while the options for Protoss fighting Mech has actually INCREASED, Mech has only the widow Mine as a new tool vs Protoss tech options and it doesn't really have the supply efficiency needed to fill that role. As I've said in other posts, Protoss in HOTS now has TWO siege breaker units as well as access to the Mothership Core which DRASTICALLY reduces the effectiveness of early mech pushes. The presence of Oracles allows for more effective air harassment in the early and midgame if the Protoss player chooses to use it and the Void Ray and Tempest are threats from the Air that are as powerful as Carriers (nearly) in WoL yet are available much earlier and are effective in fewer numbers. I respect you Lynna and your play your guide has helped me in more than a few games but I'm afraid when it comes to HOTS it is outdated. Ghosts are not the catch all answer they are in WoL because Ghosts while still incredibly useful vs everything Protoss has on the ground do not do anything to counter the new threats facing Mech from the Air. I think Raven is answer to both of those problems you are talking about.. HSM 1-shots Immortal and PDD shuts down Tempests completly. I think the new deathball for Terran mech will be Thor/Raven/Viking/Ghost.. Bc is not so important now that Thor is actually decent against heavy air and yamato is ready a while after you build your first Raven. Battle Hellions and Thors without energy should help you to get there.. We will se, I can't wait for some replays of Lyyna, because I like to steal his BOs.. :D
Even if you're right and that turns out to the be the new deathball for Terran and the hope and salvation of Mech.
Honestly look at that unit composition and be in awe of how utterly lame and uninteresting that unit composition is, how reliant it is on successfully hitting with not just one spell but all 3 spells and how fragile it is if any of those spells miss, any of those casters get feedbacked or any of the other problems that can go wrong.
Look how slow and cumbersome that army is and how completely worthless it'd be in a base trade scenario. How reliant it is on being together in a single massive ball and how worthless it is for controlling space or positioning.
Even if you're right, you're still painting a bleak picture for Mech vs Protoss even if we have a single unit composition that requires an INSANE amount of gas and time to build, are you going to sit here and say Mech is fine because you can build that? I mean honestly, all that is is Thor (MMM) Viking Ghost Raven only without the mobility, the potential for beautiful micro, or the ease of production and several times the gas requirement of bio.
I'm just humoring you too, I have my doubts that unit composition is actually good or worth the investment but even if it is, is that really what we're satisfied calling Mech viability?
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On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work. Agreed, we want the gameplay to branch out and become something different and less onesided. The game needs to improve for spectators as well as players.
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On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work.
It's just that's not what mech is. Mech should be spread out, defending multiple locations, but at the moment it has to be in one ball, because that's the only way to fight the Protoss army.
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On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work.
In fairness (and I'm not really disagreeing with you here) what people miss is non-compact play. Terran deathballs were in Broodwar also--the ball simply took up 3-5 screens and had missile turrets included, but it was about the same. It wasn't like you had 1-2 tanks here, 1-2 tanks there, etc... It was still a "ball" just so massive and wide ranging that Protoss could actually engage different parts of the ball forcing the "line" to be pushed forward (or give other portions of the line a chance to advance).
The ball was responsive, alive, and not concentrated into a central point.
What's wanted, I feel, is the effect of "small maps" but on "large ones" where the army is not something you simply circumvent but the map is so large that your able to have enough resources to actually fuel large scale warfare. (as opposed to the 1base play of the Open Seasons)
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On December 19 2012 08:07 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work. Agreed, we want the gameplay to branch out and become something different and less onesided. The game needs to improve for spectators as well as players.
Yea tanks are supposed to be the best map control unit in the game, but their attack does little damage to the protoss army, and you can always run back and regain shields. Protoss are simply not afraid of running in to tank lines at all, unlike in broodwar.
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On December 19 2012 08:16 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:07 Serpico wrote:On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work. Agreed, we want the gameplay to branch out and become something different and less onesided. The game needs to improve for spectators as well as players. Yea tanks are supposed to be the best map control unit in the game, but their attack does little damage to the protoss army, and you can always run back and regain shields. Protoss are simply not afraid of running in to tank lines at all, unlike in broodwar. And the fact a higher concentration of units means tanks can be killed off faster, but being beefy/high damage is supposed to be what makes running into them so scary. It's not like running into a huge ball of marines with high dps that dies quick, you're going to be struggling to take out most tank lines quickly at all. You have to think about how you engage them very carefully. It requires a lot of tact.
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Why sacrifice mobility for a weaker army? The protoss army is more mobile than Terran mech and it's stronger. Bio is the only option to actually stand toe-to-toe or just harass the shit outta protoss. As of right now, other than experimenting and trying to make mech work, there is no positive to going mech over bio.
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On December 19 2012 08:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work. In fairness (and I'm not really disagreeing with you here) what people miss is non-compact play. Terran deathballs were in Broodwar also--the ball simply took up 3-5 screens and had missile turrets included, but it was about the same. It wasn't like you had 1-2 tanks here, 1-2 tanks there, etc... It was still a "ball" just so massive and wide ranging that Protoss could actually engage different parts of the ball forcing the "line" to be pushed forward (or give other portions of the line a chance to advance). The ball was responsive, alive, and not concentrated into a central point. What's wanted, I feel, is the effect of "small maps" but on "large ones" where the army is not something you simply circumvent but the map is so large that your able to have enough resources to actually fuel large scale warfare. (as opposed to the 1base play of the Open Seasons)
Great point.
Does the supply cap limit players in this capacity? If it was raised to 300 or 400 and armies couldn't possibly fit on the same screen, would that help?
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On December 19 2012 08:25 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work. In fairness (and I'm not really disagreeing with you here) what people miss is non-compact play. Terran deathballs were in Broodwar also--the ball simply took up 3-5 screens and had missile turrets included, but it was about the same. It wasn't like you had 1-2 tanks here, 1-2 tanks there, etc... It was still a "ball" just so massive and wide ranging that Protoss could actually engage different parts of the ball forcing the "line" to be pushed forward (or give other portions of the line a chance to advance). The ball was responsive, alive, and not concentrated into a central point. What's wanted, I feel, is the effect of "small maps" but on "large ones" where the army is not something you simply circumvent but the map is so large that your able to have enough resources to actually fuel large scale warfare. (as opposed to the 1base play of the Open Seasons) Great point. Does the supply cap limit players in this capacity? If it was raised to 300 or 400 and armies couldn't possibly fit on the same screen, would that help?
Many things can fix it--many suggested by far smarter people than myself.
I'm still a believer in higher Damage per hit (same DPS) + lower supply.
EDIT:
The specific reasons being that I believe that the only way for tanks to be scary is they need to hit hard initially while giving people the chance to run away (as to not make it OP)
Right now the initial volley simply does nothing to a Protoss army giving the protoss army a chance to deal damage. If the first volley hurt the protoss army, then they'd actually have to make the choice whether it was worth it to fight for the next 4-5 seconds or risk losing the rest of their army.
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On December 19 2012 08:25 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 19 2012 08:00 Insoleet wrote: spectators don't want deathballs, they want positional or multifront games.... if terrans mech is only a new deathball in hots.... well I prefer that mech don't even work. In fairness (and I'm not really disagreeing with you here) what people miss is non-compact play. Terran deathballs were in Broodwar also--the ball simply took up 3-5 screens and had missile turrets included, but it was about the same. It wasn't like you had 1-2 tanks here, 1-2 tanks there, etc... It was still a "ball" just so massive and wide ranging that Protoss could actually engage different parts of the ball forcing the "line" to be pushed forward (or give other portions of the line a chance to advance). The ball was responsive, alive, and not concentrated into a central point. What's wanted, I feel, is the effect of "small maps" but on "large ones" where the army is not something you simply circumvent but the map is so large that your able to have enough resources to actually fuel large scale warfare. (as opposed to the 1base play of the Open Seasons) Great point. Does the supply cap limit players in this capacity? If it was raised to 300 or 400 and armies couldn't possibly fit on the same screen, would that help?
The supply cap by itself isn't really the limiting factor, it's the fact that you need so many more harvesters in SC2 than you did in SC1 so that the 200 supply cap, combined with the higher average supply for units, combined with the need for many more harvesters makes for much smaller armies.
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On December 18 2012 11:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Guys let it go, they specifically nerfed tanks so >16 won't be auto-win That's why HOTS mech's burst damage has been spread out over three units: 1. Siege tank (50s/3s, 13 min AOE, rng 13) 2. Thor (30x2/1.28s, rng 7) 3. Widow mine. (160 dmg/40s, 40AOE, rng 5)
The problem with that is you need to say "HEY TOSS DUDE, COME OVER HERE PLEASE AND A-MOVE INTO MY ARMY". All of your mech damage is tied up in extremely slow units. Also 2 of the 3 are HARD countered by voidrays at the moment.
All the protoss has to do is attack where your army isn't and they win. Any good protoss will do this once you're on 4 bases and your mech army is up: - Attack your weakest base or whichever base your army is furthest from - You move in to defend but you won't get there in time as you're moving accross half the map - The toss does damage and retreats before you arrive - Toss moves to the base furthest away from your mech army and does the same thing - Toss can either choose to hit you while you're moving and unseiged or keep harassing bases - You can keep chasing tossball around and losing bases/econ or you can spread out and wait for tossball to engage you in a battle you CANNOT win. - Toss can expand freely because he knows you can't move out - Either way you lose. ^ that scenario just gets worse and worse with the more bases you have and the bigger the map is.
Any TvP that gets to the point where tossball and mech army are both up ends in a loss unless your opponent plays extremely poorly.
Balance has to change in a way that allows the meta to shift for TvP mech. Mech/tank is the most immobile army in the game. That mobility loss needs to be compensated by mech/tank also being the strongest army in straight up fights. Well positioned tanks with AA cover needs to be able to hold ground against superior numbers or defending bases will always be an unwinnable scenario vs mobile armies that can avoid fighting all together.
If at any point tossball can fight straight up vs mech without it being a HUGE mistake for tossball then mech won't be viable. Toss can remax much faster and steamroll what very little forces remain. The goal for toss in TvP vs mech SHOULD be to catch a mech army unsieged and make them pay for it. Not what it currently is; which is just a-move into mech army regardless of positioning, remax faster and then win.
It was mentioned above; Mech trading equally = mech loss. That's pathetic.
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