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United States4883 Posts
On December 28 2012 10:57 a176 wrote: someone help me out here
And I do enjoy this immensely lol. Yeah, widow mines are not really as responsive as spider mines were...would be nice to see Blizzard work on the physics of the widow mine to prevent things like speedlings and chargelots from waltzing over them like they're not there. Probably need to add overkill and give widow mine a much shorter cooldown.
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I like this thread because I love to play Mech as T, but seriously, the Immortal is not worth mentioning in any discussion about mech.
Mass tank can beat mass immortal (there's a thread on it somewhere and that's pure tank vs pure immortal, eg: no ghosts which every mech army desperately needs) and mech in general is not beatable on the ground cost-effectively as Protoss OR probably Zerg (hard to say with Zerg because I normally don't use a pure ground army as Zerg).
I'm talking about WoL here of course, but I don't see any significant changes to this in HotS, EXCEPT: You just heard me say tank-based armies are not beatable on the ground, unfortunately though, your opponent can circumvent your defences or build air units. You can't afford to spread out or get extra anti-air because of the cost in gas and supply of the tanks (and their worthlessness in small numbers vs Toss especially). HotS makes skytoss better, mutas better, introduces abduct (an awesome ability but it further negates tanks) and gives infestors more range (why?). Meaning fighting mech is easier than ever.
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Anyone who says that tanks beat immortals is completely out of their gourd. In real games, immortals absolutely obliterate tank based play. I cannot even believe this is up for debate.
Protosses with enough immortals will happily A-move into tank lines and CRUSH them. It is so one-sided that the Protoss doesn't even have to get cute with flanks, warp prisms, or even trying to micro to get tanks to shoot a particular target. They just blindly A-move in and straight up defeat tank lines.
Ghosts help massively to deal with the hardened shields. However apart from the EMP the ghost is not useful in the slightest, and the need for them does cut into your already pathetic maximum tank count due to them being 3 supply each. However, honestly, I would rather have infantry, or thor+hellion, or be sky terran.
You cannot attack quickly with tanks, you cannot retreat with tanks, you will suffer massive casualties when attacked, and there is no way to rebuild them quickly enough to avoid losing the game when you do suffer serious losses. There's too many different ways Protoss can cheaply cripple or straight up murder your tank count even if it is already a huge amount of supply and resource investment. I'd rather have MMM and Ghosts to deal with the Templar, and Vikings to deal with the Colossi. It's cheaper, has higher HP per cost and supply (and medivacs), has higher damage per cost and supply (and stim), and much greater movespeed and versatility, especially anti-air. It gives you great mobility and map control, lets you expand safely and defend by moving your entire army to defend rather than posting defenders that just get killed for free and aren't a part of your main army in the meantime. And MMM beats pretty much everything except those two Protoss splash dealers- Colossi and HTs.
Furthermore, you are going to make Ghosts and Vikings either way, so I'd rather have MMM+VG than mech+VG. The only difference is you EMP the HTs instead of the Immortals, and the Vikings shoot Colossi instead of Skytoss units.
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The widow mine just isn't working in its current form. Its a cool idea but I don't think it'll ever be completely balanced because of the binary nature of its usage. Spider mines worked because they were free in a sense. Widow mines are a commitment which relies on your opponent making a really big mistake. If they do not make this mistake, they easily take out a huge amount of supply.
However I don't think the widow mine should be completely given up on. Personally I like the idea of widow mines and siege tanks working together to hold space but I think 3 things need to happen:
1. Late game tanks need dramatically more damage than they currently have. Add the shaped charge upgrade to the fusion core which increases single target damage. 2. Widow mines should have a single target high damage attack when burrowed. 3. Widow mines should be able to lay spider mines ala vultures, at 25 minerals a pop.
Widow mines are only effective in large enough numbers to cut into your tank count. Having spider mines will deal with the Immortal syndrome - Protoss can no longer a move into tank lines.
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On December 28 2012 13:35 SC2John wrote:And I do enjoy this immensely lol. Yeah, widow mines are not really as responsive as spider mines were...would be nice to see Blizzard work on the physics of the widow mine to prevent things like speedlings and chargelots from waltzing over them like they're not there. Probably need to add overkill and give widow mine a much shorter cooldown. Widow Mines arent even as fun to watch as the "eeek ... a Spider Mine just unburrowed ... run away run away" slapstick comedy that arises from their whole mechanics and movement. Spider Mines also required some skill and could be used "offensively" by riding your Vultures into the enemy lines to burrow the mines there. You can do the same with Widow Mines, BUT the control for that is much easier and you dont have a Vulture to risk at the same time.
On December 28 2012 20:07 Evangelist wrote: The widow mine just isn't working in its current form. Its a cool idea but I don't think it'll ever be completely balanced because of the binary nature of its usage. Spider mines worked because they were free in a sense. Widow mines are a commitment which relies on your opponent making a really big mistake. If they do not make this mistake, they easily take out a huge amount of supply.
However I don't think the widow mine should be completely given up on. Personally I like the idea of widow mines and siege tanks working together to hold space but I think 3 things need to happen:
1. Late game tanks need dramatically more damage than they currently have. Add the shaped charge upgrade to the fusion core which increases single target damage. 2. Widow mines should have a single target high damage attack when burrowed. 3. Widow mines should be able to lay spider mines ala vultures, at 25 minerals a pop.
Widow mines are only effective in large enough numbers to cut into your tank count. Having spider mines will deal with the Immortal syndrome - Protoss can no longer a move into tank lines. 1. Not only late game tanks ... at 35 base damage there probably is a timing where they wont even kill a Zergling with one shot (when Zerglings have 1 armor and Tanks 0 attack upgrades). They also need to deal damage equally well against every type of unit, because it is already reduced for the splash and having some units take close to zero damage from such an expensive unit is a joke ... and a bad implementation of rock-paper-scissors.
2. Widow Mines are a lackluster and boring unit, which should be replaced by the funny squealing Spider Mine ...
3. TERRIBLE idea, because you can just spam the skill if you have the resources for it.
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Bonus shield damage (Emp shell upgrade) will solve the problem!!! Tanks will be strong enough in early game. Immortal timings become important. Since Emp shell upgrade for tanks will make immortal less viable. Thors will be able to hit collosus. Protoss will have to tech switch to air while holding with immortals and drop.
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Are you guys trying Widow Mines, Mass tanks and thors? Running a bunch of widow mines with the almost instant dig is pretty good. (if they were less supply it would be better) but if the army doesnt move back then it does a lot of damage. or if they focus the mines, use your tanks to focus fire the problem makers. If they do run away from the mines then you can re-position. Its not perfect but I see it being pretty effective so far
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On December 28 2012 23:13 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 13:35 SC2John wrote:On December 28 2012 10:57 a176 wrote: someone help me out here And I do enjoy this immensely lol. Yeah, widow mines are not really as responsive as spider mines were...would be nice to see Blizzard work on the physics of the widow mine to prevent things like speedlings and chargelots from waltzing over them like they're not there. Probably need to add overkill and give widow mine a much shorter cooldown. Widow Mines arent even as fun to watch as the "eeek ... a Spider Mine just unburrowed ... run away run away" slapstick comedy that arises from their whole mechanics and movement. Spider Mines also required some skill and could be used "offensively" by riding your Vultures into the enemy lines to burrow the mines there. You can do the same with Widow Mines, BUT the control for that is much easier and you dont have a Vulture to risk at the same time. Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 20:07 Evangelist wrote: The widow mine just isn't working in its current form. Its a cool idea but I don't think it'll ever be completely balanced because of the binary nature of its usage. Spider mines worked because they were free in a sense. Widow mines are a commitment which relies on your opponent making a really big mistake. If they do not make this mistake, they easily take out a huge amount of supply.
However I don't think the widow mine should be completely given up on. Personally I like the idea of widow mines and siege tanks working together to hold space but I think 3 things need to happen:
1. Late game tanks need dramatically more damage than they currently have. Add the shaped charge upgrade to the fusion core which increases single target damage. 2. Widow mines should have a single target high damage attack when burrowed. 3. Widow mines should be able to lay spider mines ala vultures, at 25 minerals a pop.
Widow mines are only effective in large enough numbers to cut into your tank count. Having spider mines will deal with the Immortal syndrome - Protoss can no longer a move into tank lines. 1. Not only late game tanks ... at 35 base damage there probably is a timing where they wont even kill a Zergling with one shot (when Zerglings have 1 armor and Tanks 0 attack upgrades). They also need to deal damage equally well against every type of unit, because it is already reduced for the splash and having some units take close to zero damage from such an expensive unit is a joke ... and a bad implementation of rock-paper-scissors. 2. Widow Mines are a lackluster and boring unit, which should be replaced by the funny squealing Spider Mine ... 3. TERRIBLE idea, because you can just spam the skill if you have the resources for it.
I could see 3. working if it basically the Widow Mine's only ability was freezing for 3(1 with upgrade) seconds to lay a mine that did the current Widow Mine attack once and then was used up. Rather than resources, a 40 second cooldown (or what ever the current cooldown on the attack is).
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United States4883 Posts
On December 28 2012 16:05 ledarsi wrote: Anyone who says that tanks beat immortals is completely out of their gourd. In real games, immortals absolutely obliterate tank based play. I cannot even believe this is up for debate.
Protosses with enough immortals will happily A-move into tank lines and CRUSH them. It is so one-sided that the Protoss doesn't even have to get cute with flanks, warp prisms, or even trying to micro to get tanks to shoot a particular target. They just blindly A-move in and straight up defeat tank lines.
Ghosts help massively to deal with the hardened shields. However apart from the EMP the ghost is not useful in the slightest, and the need for them does cut into your already pathetic maximum tank count due to them being 3 supply each. However, honestly, I would rather have infantry, or thor+hellion, or be sky terran.
You cannot attack quickly with tanks, you cannot retreat with tanks, you will suffer massive casualties when attacked, and there is no way to rebuild them quickly enough to avoid losing the game when you do suffer serious losses. There's too many different ways Protoss can cheaply cripple or straight up murder your tank count even if it is already a huge amount of supply and resource investment. I'd rather have MMM and Ghosts to deal with the Templar, and Vikings to deal with the Colossi. It's cheaper, has higher HP per cost and supply (and medivacs), has higher damage per cost and supply (and stim), and much greater movespeed and versatility, especially anti-air. It gives you great mobility and map control, lets you expand safely and defend by moving your entire army to defend rather than posting defenders that just get killed for free and aren't a part of your main army in the meantime. And MMM beats pretty much everything except those two Protoss splash dealers- Colossi and HTs.
Furthermore, you are going to make Ghosts and Vikings either way, so I'd rather have MMM+VG than mech+VG. The only difference is you EMP the HTs instead of the Immortals, and the Vikings shoot Colossi instead of Skytoss units.
I think, as far as unit counters in TvP mech go, terran should win by an overwhelming majority on the ground with 6-8 tanks, around 30 hellions, and 4-5 full energy ghosts. With ghosts in the composition, there's no contest at all. I just tested a lot of mech engagements in the unit tester using tanks vs. immortals, tanks vs. immortal/chargelot, tank/hellion mixes against immortal/chargelot, and ghostmech vs. immortal/zealot/archon. In equal supply, ghost mech crushes the hell out of anything protoss can make on the ground. Immortal/VR/tempest is another story completely though....
THE ISSUE with mech is not necessarily that the immortal hard counters tanks. The biggest issue is that the mech player has to engage with their entire army and engage perfectly in order to deal with a big protoss deathball. There is no ability to control space effectively enough to ensure that an expansion is safe or that you don't need a large part or all of your army there to deal with it. In addition, mech has a hard time getting up off the ground because of all the options protoss has at their disposal in the early and mid-game (especially now with the MsC). Because none of the factory units hard counter a significant part of protoss options, mech has to be played with extreme caution, scouting correctly, reading correctly, getting things in the perfect position, etc. And while that's fun on its own level, there's nothing more frustrating that losing a game because your 2nd widow mine wasn't QUITE close enough to take down the warp prism.
Giving tanks a straight-up single target damage buff can help some of this because most big units would be weakened substantially, leaving the possibility for things like planetaries, mines, and hellions to clean them up. Thus, space control synergy would definitely improve and give mech a better chance of getting off the ground and getting ghostmech up.
When air play gets involved...well, that's a whole other realm. It doesn't really need fixing until the first parts of mech, including the early game and midgame, are repaired.
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why not make the tank dependent on a different unit, such as mm a ghost or raven that helps 'spot' or 'paint the target' for the tank.
enemies caught by the laser or aoe on the ground take extra damage for the tank.
this helps balance something like making an extra powerful 111 by placing the bonus damage that a tank does on a different, more high tech unit (maybe it requires research if you really need to balance things like this).
an idea could be a research added on top of EMP like 'buffed EMP" (change the name obviously). targets affected by EMP take an additional 25 (number if variable obviously) damage from splash damage for x number of seconds.
you could even tie it to a different 'shot' if you wanted.
i think in this way the game can be desinged around a bio centric force (imagine MMMghost/viking/raven tech support) and mech styles where ghosts (or ravens) are added on as wel as biomech type of forces. the ghost/raven would function as the ultimate unit in a way by series of 'tech' to equalize to the power of Z or P in end game.
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In order to increase the tank's ability to control space, what about making it a pseudo-mine layer? The Siege Tank (only in siege mode) can fire a targeted round (cannot target units, only terrain) that immediately buries itself into the ground and then works similar to the Shredders from the HotS annoucement, dealing damage to enemy units that enter their field of effect (units leaving the field could even continue taking damage for a few seconds). The round would be a timed life structure/unit. The ability would need to be on a cooldown since adding energy to tanks is a bad idea. Make it an upgrade on Tech Labs that is unlocked when an Armory is built.
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On December 29 2012 01:14 Habitus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 23:13 Rabiator wrote:On December 28 2012 13:35 SC2John wrote:On December 28 2012 10:57 a176 wrote: someone help me out here And I do enjoy this immensely lol. Yeah, widow mines are not really as responsive as spider mines were...would be nice to see Blizzard work on the physics of the widow mine to prevent things like speedlings and chargelots from waltzing over them like they're not there. Probably need to add overkill and give widow mine a much shorter cooldown. Widow Mines arent even as fun to watch as the "eeek ... a Spider Mine just unburrowed ... run away run away" slapstick comedy that arises from their whole mechanics and movement. Spider Mines also required some skill and could be used "offensively" by riding your Vultures into the enemy lines to burrow the mines there. You can do the same with Widow Mines, BUT the control for that is much easier and you dont have a Vulture to risk at the same time. On December 28 2012 20:07 Evangelist wrote: The widow mine just isn't working in its current form. Its a cool idea but I don't think it'll ever be completely balanced because of the binary nature of its usage. Spider mines worked because they were free in a sense. Widow mines are a commitment which relies on your opponent making a really big mistake. If they do not make this mistake, they easily take out a huge amount of supply.
However I don't think the widow mine should be completely given up on. Personally I like the idea of widow mines and siege tanks working together to hold space but I think 3 things need to happen:
1. Late game tanks need dramatically more damage than they currently have. Add the shaped charge upgrade to the fusion core which increases single target damage. 2. Widow mines should have a single target high damage attack when burrowed. 3. Widow mines should be able to lay spider mines ala vultures, at 25 minerals a pop.
Widow mines are only effective in large enough numbers to cut into your tank count. Having spider mines will deal with the Immortal syndrome - Protoss can no longer a move into tank lines. 1. Not only late game tanks ... at 35 base damage there probably is a timing where they wont even kill a Zergling with one shot (when Zerglings have 1 armor and Tanks 0 attack upgrades). They also need to deal damage equally well against every type of unit, because it is already reduced for the splash and having some units take close to zero damage from such an expensive unit is a joke ... and a bad implementation of rock-paper-scissors. 2. Widow Mines are a lackluster and boring unit, which should be replaced by the funny squealing Spider Mine ... 3. TERRIBLE idea, because you can just spam the skill if you have the resources for it. I could see 3. working if it basically the Widow Mine's only ability was freezing for 3(1 with upgrade) seconds to lay a mine that did the current Widow Mine attack once and then was used up. Rather than resources, a 40 second cooldown (or what ever the current cooldown on the attack is). If you do that you will have Terran bases VERY safe, because you can simply build 4-5 Widow Mines early and then cover every base with spawned Spider Mines every 40 seconds. So a cooldown isnt a good regulator either. The only working one would be "3 charges", but thats an idea "stolen from BW", so Browder will never ever consider it and why should a Widow Mine lay Spider Mines at all?
Apart from that having the "Spider Mine" attack like the Widow Mine would be terribly dull, because the attack method of the Spider Mine - sounds and movement - was half the fun of it to watch ... just as the "random flight pattern attack" of the Reaver was.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 29 2012 05:44 dreamsmasher wrote: why not make the tank dependent on a different unit, such as mm a ghost or raven that helps 'spot' or 'paint the target' for the tank.
enemies caught by the laser or aoe on the ground take extra damage for the tank.
this helps balance something like making an extra powerful 111 by placing the bonus damage that a tank does on a different, more high tech unit (maybe it requires research if you really need to balance things like this).
an idea could be a research added on top of EMP like 'buffed EMP" (change the name obviously). targets affected by EMP take an additional 25 (number if variable obviously) damage from splash damage for x number of seconds.
you could even tie it to a different 'shot' if you wanted.
i think in this way the game can be desinged around a bio centric force (imagine MMMghost/viking/raven tech support) and mech styles where ghosts (or ravens) are added on as wel as biomech type of forces. the ghost/raven would function as the ultimate unit in a way by series of 'tech' to equalize to the power of Z or P in end game.
I honestly don't think either of these is a great idea. Plain and simple, it's too complex. When you add too much complexity to the game, there becomes too much to do, and as a result, the game becomes about micro and not about positioning and macro (which is not good for a "strategy" game). The siege tank really shouldn't be anything more than a unit that does a lot of ground damage and deters units from coming too close.
On December 29 2012 15:16 xPrimuSx wrote: In order to increase the tank's ability to control space, what about making it a pseudo-mine layer? The Siege Tank (only in siege mode) can fire a targeted round (cannot target units, only terrain) that immediately buries itself into the ground and then works similar to the Shredders from the HotS annoucement, dealing damage to enemy units that enter their field of effect (units leaving the field could even continue taking damage for a few seconds). The round would be a timed life structure/unit. The ability would need to be on a cooldown since adding energy to tanks is a bad idea. Make it an upgrade on Tech Labs that is unlocked when an Armory is built.
Again, too complex and kind of overpowered. I see no reason to have tanks lay mines if you have widow mines.
On December 29 2012 15:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 01:14 Habitus wrote:On December 28 2012 23:13 Rabiator wrote:On December 28 2012 13:35 SC2John wrote:On December 28 2012 10:57 a176 wrote: someone help me out here And I do enjoy this immensely lol. Yeah, widow mines are not really as responsive as spider mines were...would be nice to see Blizzard work on the physics of the widow mine to prevent things like speedlings and chargelots from waltzing over them like they're not there. Probably need to add overkill and give widow mine a much shorter cooldown. Widow Mines arent even as fun to watch as the "eeek ... a Spider Mine just unburrowed ... run away run away" slapstick comedy that arises from their whole mechanics and movement. Spider Mines also required some skill and could be used "offensively" by riding your Vultures into the enemy lines to burrow the mines there. You can do the same with Widow Mines, BUT the control for that is much easier and you dont have a Vulture to risk at the same time. On December 28 2012 20:07 Evangelist wrote: The widow mine just isn't working in its current form. Its a cool idea but I don't think it'll ever be completely balanced because of the binary nature of its usage. Spider mines worked because they were free in a sense. Widow mines are a commitment which relies on your opponent making a really big mistake. If they do not make this mistake, they easily take out a huge amount of supply.
However I don't think the widow mine should be completely given up on. Personally I like the idea of widow mines and siege tanks working together to hold space but I think 3 things need to happen:
1. Late game tanks need dramatically more damage than they currently have. Add the shaped charge upgrade to the fusion core which increases single target damage. 2. Widow mines should have a single target high damage attack when burrowed. 3. Widow mines should be able to lay spider mines ala vultures, at 25 minerals a pop.
Widow mines are only effective in large enough numbers to cut into your tank count. Having spider mines will deal with the Immortal syndrome - Protoss can no longer a move into tank lines. 1. Not only late game tanks ... at 35 base damage there probably is a timing where they wont even kill a Zergling with one shot (when Zerglings have 1 armor and Tanks 0 attack upgrades). They also need to deal damage equally well against every type of unit, because it is already reduced for the splash and having some units take close to zero damage from such an expensive unit is a joke ... and a bad implementation of rock-paper-scissors. 2. Widow Mines are a lackluster and boring unit, which should be replaced by the funny squealing Spider Mine ... 3. TERRIBLE idea, because you can just spam the skill if you have the resources for it. I could see 3. working if it basically the Widow Mine's only ability was freezing for 3(1 with upgrade) seconds to lay a mine that did the current Widow Mine attack once and then was used up. Rather than resources, a 40 second cooldown (or what ever the current cooldown on the attack is). If you do that you will have Terran bases VERY safe, because you can simply build 4-5 Widow Mines early and then cover every base with spawned Spider Mines every 40 seconds. So a cooldown isnt a good regulator either. The only working one would be "3 charges", but thats an idea "stolen from BW", so Browder will never ever consider it and why should a Widow Mine lay Spider Mines at all? Apart from that having the "Spider Mine" attack like the Widow Mine would be terribly dull, because the attack method of the Spider Mine - sounds and movement - was half the fun of it to watch ... just as the "random flight pattern attack" of the Reaver was.
I don't know, some of us might argue how terrible the reaver scarabs were lol. But yeah, I don't see widow mines ever laying down spider mines; even if they had only 3 spider mines to lay, they would then be useless supply (unlike vultures), so it just doesn't work out too well. They really just need a dramatic drop in supply in order to become even close to relevant in later stages of the game.
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Like many others, I think most of the problems have to do on the Protoss side. I had made these suggestions on improving PvZ and PvT. I will repost them here to figure out how people feel.
The Problems with protoss in PvT and PvZ:
1. Warp In is terrible. As a result of warp in, there is no defender's advantage and Protoss is pressured do early all ins disproportionately, because of how weak gateways are mid/late game, and how good warp in is early game.
2. Mothership metagame sucks.
3. Too many counter units that require no micro/boring play and counter more exciting play (siege tanks).
Solution to Warpage: Take away warpgate research and bring it in the late game. Buff all gateway units.
I offer the following method that could be interesting: We bring about warpins with a new unit (lets call it the arbiter for the sake of argument).
Properties of the Arbiter: 1. produces large warp in field. 2. small aoe "stasis" (or some other spell if you guys think of a better one) 3. passive ability, aoe cloak.
The Arbiter is built FROM the Mothership (making the mother ship a real "mother" ship). This helps limit the number of Arbiters one can make allowing them to be fairly powerful.
Reworking the Mothership 1. take away vortex. It sucks. 2. Increase its speed, lower its health/shields and cost. 3. Give it two forms of recall. Targeted Recall, which works as it currently does, and Mass Recall, which costs more energy but brings back every unit near Arbiters to the Mothership. 4. Give it the ability to produce Arbiters.
Fixing the Immortal The "Mech Killer". Its a boring unit, durable as hell, powerful, good range, easy to protect. Its the perfect "A move and dont worry" unit.
-Change it's stats to be 200 shield, 25 health. -Take away Hardened Shields. -give it a Bonus 50 vs. Buildings stat. -Increased Regeneration. The Immortal recharges its shield out of combat much faster than other units (keeping true to its name).
This makes the immortal a better harass unit, less durable, and more likely to be protected in combat situations. It would also have great synergy with warp prisms, not only for harassing, but to drop them into battle and pull them out quickly while they recharge their shields in the transport.
Changing the Warp Prism Ever transport unit needs an ability in starcraft 2. My suggestion about the Arbiter makes warp prism warping redundant. I think the warp prism warp in area should only be big enough for 1 or 2 dts but warpins in HOTS should be at arbiters, not at pylons and only at warp prisms for harassing. The warp prism should get the Hardened Shield ability. WIth the following changes.
1. Hardened shield. When in "activated mode", the Warp Prism creates an aoe umbrella under it, reducing damage greater than 10 to 10 for 5 seconds or as long as the Warp Prism is Alive. The Warp Prism is also protected in the same way by its umbrella.
My feeling about these changes is that it increases the harassment potential from robo, reduces the need to rely on timing attacks, makes more sustanable gateway pressure that doesn't revolve around win it or lose it timings. Toss can move around the map lategame easier, because mothership is purely a recall device and faces no risk outside of that. Furthermore, warping in powerful gateway units all over the map is really good late game.
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why not put spider mines WITH window mines?
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United States4883 Posts
On December 30 2012 04:39 People_0f_Color wrote: Like many others, I think most of the problems have to do on the Protoss side. I had made these suggestions on improving PvZ and PvT. I will repost them here to figure out how people feel.
The Problems with protoss in PvT and PvZ:
1. Warp In is terrible. As a result of warp in, there is no defender's advantage and Protoss is pressured do early all ins disproportionately, because of how weak gateways are mid/late game, and how good warp in is early game.
2. Mothership metagame sucks.
3. Too many counter units that require no micro/boring play and counter more exciting play (siege tanks).
Solution to Warpage: Take away warpgate research and bring it in the late game. Buff all gateway units.
I offer the following method that could be interesting: We bring about warpins with a new unit (lets call it the arbiter for the sake of argument).
Properties of the Arbiter: 1. produces large warp in field. 2. small aoe "stasis" (or some other spell if you guys think of a better one) 3. passive ability, aoe cloak.
The Arbiter is built FROM the Mothership (making the mother ship a real "mother" ship). This helps limit the number of Arbiters one can make allowing them to be fairly powerful.
Reworking the Mothership 1. take away vortex. It sucks. 2. Increase its speed, lower its health/shields and cost. 3. Give it two forms of recall. Targeted Recall, which works as it currently does, and Mass Recall, which costs more energy but brings back every unit near Arbiters to the Mothership. 4. Give it the ability to produce Arbiters.
Fixing the Immortal The "Mech Killer". Its a boring unit, durable as hell, powerful, good range, easy to protect. Its the perfect "A move and dont worry" unit.
-Change it's stats to be 200 shield, 25 health. -Take away Hardened Shields. -give it a Bonus 50 vs. Buildings stat. -Increased Regeneration. The Immortal recharges its shield out of combat much faster than other units (keeping true to its name).
This makes the immortal a better harass unit, less durable, and more likely to be protected in combat situations. It would also have great synergy with warp prisms, not only for harassing, but to drop them into battle and pull them out quickly while they recharge their shields in the transport.
Changing the Warp Prism Ever transport unit needs an ability in starcraft 2. My suggestion about the Arbiter makes warp prism warping redundant. I think the warp prism warp in area should only be big enough for 1 or 2 dts but warpins in HOTS should be at arbiters, not at pylons and only at warp prisms for harassing. The warp prism should get the Hardened Shield ability. WIth the following changes.
1. Hardened shield. When in "activated mode", the Warp Prism creates an aoe umbrella under it, reducing damage greater than 10 to 10 for 5 seconds or as long as the Warp Prism is Alive. The Warp Prism is also protected in the same way by its umbrella.
My feeling about these changes is that it increases the harassment potential from robo, reduces the need to rely on timing attacks, makes more sustanable gateway pressure that doesn't revolve around win it or lose it timings. Toss can move around the map lategame easier, because mothership is purely a recall device and faces no risk outside of that. Furthermore, warping in powerful gateway units all over the map is really good late game.
I would like to read about your ideas sometime and see what sort of race overhauls protoss needs. However, I don't think this is really the right thread for this post. The discussion here is not exactly what problems mech has against protoss or how broken the matchup may be; it is about terran, and how space control in general is terrible.
On December 30 2012 05:57 RavenLoud wrote: why not put spider mines WITH window mines?
As I've stated earlier, I'm not sure if giving widow mines the ability to lay mines is useful. It makes no sense to give mines the ability to lay mines AND be mines themselves, meaning that widow mines would still end up being dead supply after you used up the mines (unlike vultures in BW). In my opinion, the widow mines need a severe supply and power cut, and turned into a massable AoE damage dealer, which would solve a ton of problems that terran has with space control in general.
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What I think is happening is that Blizzard's changes to the fundamentals of the Terran production system, including their rearrangement of the tech tree, the cost reduction of factories, and the normalization of tech labs and the creation of reactors, has made the tank behave differently early in the game. The tank is a range 13 unit, and as a result having just one (or two), ASAP, can in some situations be very powerful. Especially in TvT.
So the Widow Mine is essentially swallowing the Siege Tank's role as a positional splash damage dealer. It deals more damage for less cost, is more mobile, and is invisible when burrowed. And it hits air units, with splash. The existence of the Widow Mine makes it very difficult to justify ever building tanks, when you could build mines instead.
What needs to happen is the Siege Tank either needs to be massively, tremendously buffed, or it just needs to be reworked. The Siege Tank is an iconic terran unit, and needs to have a place in SC2, and in a more robust way than technically being available like the WoL Carrier.
The Widow Mine in its current form (produced independently from the Factory) has always been a bizarre unit. The mine should not be able to move on its own, it should not cost supply as it is not a real unit, and it should be produced or created by another unit. And it really, really should not have an upgrade that turns it into a Baneling for running directly into the enemy and blowing everything up. It is retarded enough to have one unit that behaves that way, and it stings even worse that we lost the Lurker because Browder seemed to think the Baneling A) conflicts with it, and B) is better than the Lurker.... Losing the Siege Tank to some ridiculous landmine-baneling with delusions of grandeur would be beyond redemption.
However the existing Widow Mine has been tested, and actually seems numerically alright, possibly with some number tweaking. So instead of chucking it wholesale and going back to Spider Mines, some effort should be made to salvage a bad situation.
So here is my suggestion. Make a unit build Widow Mines, and make the mine not cost supply to just exist out on the map. It cannot move. Hellions are the best candidate to create mines, in my opinion (vehicle mode only). However Reapers could also work. The mines cost resources to make, and there is a lengthy cooldown which encourages making more units rather than waiting for the cooldown.
I would also suggest that Blizzard look into the possibility of making Perdition/Flaming Betty turrets instead of Battle Hellions. Never going to happen because they are pridefully stubborn and never admit mistakes- but the Battle Hellion is not a "new unit" either- it's a Hellion with 50% more HP. Having Hellions produce beefy turrets to defend fixed positions rather than physically stand there gives mech better positional and harass tools that don't work in a deathball, and is less offensively devastating than just attacking with a wall of Hellbat HP in front of marines in TvZ.
If Blizzard is up for a more dramatic Factory rework, then make the Widow Mine not attack air units, and give Terran a real Factory anti-air unit. Something with range and better firepower against flying units than marines, but more expensive. A 2 supply unit with decent hitpoints that deals bonus damage against Light units, possibly even splash. Could even make the Thor just have its High Impact Payload (or just make it a dedicated ground assault unit). There really is no excuse for the Factory not to just have a unit that shoots air units worth a damn. Multiple kinds of anti-air are mandatory. ESPECIALLY if Blizzard wants to use that retarded balance angle of "real strong unit, countered by air units" which they love so much. (See: Marauder, Roach, Immortal, Colossus, etc. etc...). Which is the domain of the incompetent RTS designer, but it seems we are stuck with it.
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On December 30 2012 09:35 SC2John wrote:
As I've stated earlier, I'm not sure if giving widow mines the ability to lay mines is useful. It makes no sense to give mines the ability to lay mines AND be mines themselves, meaning that widow mines would still end up being dead supply after you used up the mines (unlike vultures in BW). In my opinion, the widow mines need a severe supply and power cut, and turned into a massable AoE damage dealer, which would solve a ton of problems that terran has with space control in general. Makes no sense for the widow mine to be called a "mine" anyway.
After using up the spider mines, just bumrush em to the enemy with the 1s burrow upgrade or use it in whatever way.
1 supply mine is the best solution though.
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On December 30 2012 09:35 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 04:39 People_0f_Color wrote: Like many others, I think most of the problems have to do on the Protoss side. I had made these suggestions on improving PvZ and PvT. I will repost them here to figure out how people feel.
The Problems with protoss in PvT and PvZ:
1. Warp In is terrible. As a result of warp in, there is no defender's advantage and Protoss is pressured do early all ins disproportionately, because of how weak gateways are mid/late game, and how good warp in is early game.
2. Mothership metagame sucks.
3. Too many counter units that require no micro/boring play and counter more exciting play (siege tanks).
Solution to Warpage: Take away warpgate research and bring it in the late game. Buff all gateway units.
I offer the following method that could be interesting: We bring about warpins with a new unit (lets call it the arbiter for the sake of argument).
Properties of the Arbiter: 1. produces large warp in field. 2. small aoe "stasis" (or some other spell if you guys think of a better one) 3. passive ability, aoe cloak.
The Arbiter is built FROM the Mothership (making the mother ship a real "mother" ship). This helps limit the number of Arbiters one can make allowing them to be fairly powerful.
Reworking the Mothership 1. take away vortex. It sucks. 2. Increase its speed, lower its health/shields and cost. 3. Give it two forms of recall. Targeted Recall, which works as it currently does, and Mass Recall, which costs more energy but brings back every unit near Arbiters to the Mothership. 4. Give it the ability to produce Arbiters.
Fixing the Immortal The "Mech Killer". Its a boring unit, durable as hell, powerful, good range, easy to protect. Its the perfect "A move and dont worry" unit.
-Change it's stats to be 200 shield, 25 health. -Take away Hardened Shields. -give it a Bonus 50 vs. Buildings stat. -Increased Regeneration. The Immortal recharges its shield out of combat much faster than other units (keeping true to its name).
This makes the immortal a better harass unit, less durable, and more likely to be protected in combat situations. It would also have great synergy with warp prisms, not only for harassing, but to drop them into battle and pull them out quickly while they recharge their shields in the transport.
Changing the Warp Prism Ever transport unit needs an ability in starcraft 2. My suggestion about the Arbiter makes warp prism warping redundant. I think the warp prism warp in area should only be big enough for 1 or 2 dts but warpins in HOTS should be at arbiters, not at pylons and only at warp prisms for harassing. The warp prism should get the Hardened Shield ability. WIth the following changes.
1. Hardened shield. When in "activated mode", the Warp Prism creates an aoe umbrella under it, reducing damage greater than 10 to 10 for 5 seconds or as long as the Warp Prism is Alive. The Warp Prism is also protected in the same way by its umbrella.
My feeling about these changes is that it increases the harassment potential from robo, reduces the need to rely on timing attacks, makes more sustanable gateway pressure that doesn't revolve around win it or lose it timings. Toss can move around the map lategame easier, because mothership is purely a recall device and faces no risk outside of that. Furthermore, warping in powerful gateway units all over the map is really good late game.
I would like to read about your ideas sometime and see what sort of race overhauls protoss needs. However, I don't think this is really the right thread for this post. The discussion here is not exactly what problems mech has against protoss or how broken the matchup may be; it is about terran, and how space control in general is terrible.
Very polite of you. I just thought it was relevant since the solution to making protoss better is the solution to making mech viable.
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On December 21 2012 18:18 Wayem wrote: Hi,
I'm a P player here, but I am 100% behind the idea of buffing mech and will talk a little bit about TvP. I feel it's for now quite fragile because of that damn immortal...
My ideal game ? A game where the defender has a strong advantage and positionnal play has a lot of importance. You win by strong macro and big multitasking by defending and harassing a lot a lot. So a lot of skirmishes around the map as you slowly overcome your opponent, hurting his macro. SC2 is far from there (yet?).
Therefore, I am advocating big buffs to the tank. Hell, tanks should be scary ! I am not supposed to a-move 6 immortals into them and ruining everything... I should try to play with mech's weakness: immobility, avoiding them to harass expansions where tanks aren't, while expanding crazy myself... and then suffering harass myself with hellions/mines, etc. I don't quite now how to explain this and maybe I sound stupid, but this comes from the heart guys :D
On the other hand... in BW T bio was muredered by the biffy P units. Don't get me wrong, I would be very happy if T can mech or go bio, both being viable. But the fast is that bio now just destroy protoss in mid-game without AOE. So we see a lot of turtling, less harass, etc. and this leads to less interesting games.
The problem is, that nerfing for example the marauder is shutting down T bio. So the "design flaw" is more on the P side... that's why I'd make drastic changes to this race that don't feel... well... that don't feel "protoss" or just well designed. Something like make the stalker damage bonus to light and not vs armor, swap sentry and immortal in robo. Yes, immortals T1.5, but nerfed a lot. Etc, etc. and THEN, we will be able to see a viable mech + viable bio.
CONCLUSION: please please buff the hell out of tanks. Remake P almost from scratch. Thanks. Tanks are already really good against zerg, making them better could break the balance of them in TvZ, maybe a buff like siege tanks ignore immortal shields or something of the sort, something that won't affect TvZ as it looks pretty awesome in HoTS so far.
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