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I did great at the starting, but eventually lost the game. This happens often, I dont know if im defending too much, or not expending quick enuf.
If at the start I kill many of my opponent's marines, do I make more lings and keep pushing? or do I make drones and expend? I killed a few of his groups at the start, yet I still lost.
I'd appreciate any help i can get! Im the Zerg, the maps PeaksofBaekdu. http://www.4shared.com/file/18644988/cbd727b3/HelpPlease.html
ty!
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i'm watching it right now...
on such a long distance map, you really don't need 9 pool. early zerglings wont help you kill scvs cause his marines will be up in time. and he wont be able to successfully marine/bunker/scv rush you when there's only one route to your base and you can see him coming with your overlord. that 9pool set you back by at least 4-5 drones (equivalent to if you went 12 hatch 11 pool but lost 4-5 drones in a rush)
you didn't need to scout with your drone. there's only one route to your base so if he is rushing u, u can see with your overlord. you don't need to sacrifice a drone. also, u didn't need to build an extractor at his main. don't build extractors unless you know what you are doing.
with the 9pool, you got lucky, rather than it being a good build order. the scv scouted you (which you can count on that happening), but instead of staying in ur base, he just put it outside and didn't see your rush. why the fuck would anyone send an scv to scout on a 1v1 map, and then not scout with it? that's stupid... don't go with 9 pool. you were lucky. vs people who know what they are doing, u would have done no damage whatsoever.
a side note on rushes. if he has around 12 scvs, that means that for every second that his scvs are running around not mining, it's roughly 8 minerals that he's not gathering. this is true for every second. So instead of losing your zerglings to scvs, try to micro them better. killing 1 scv is 50 minerals. keeping your zerglings alive for 7 extra seconds is ~56 minerals. if you can set up your hotkeys for your hatcheries better, you can spend more time microing ur lings so they don't die.
for rushing against zerg or protoss, hotkey ur lings to 2 per group. for rush against terran, i prefer hotkeying them to 3 per group (scvs have 60 hp, probes have 40). then just hit and run. i would have put 3 lings to harass scvs and the rest to stand outside the barracks to pick off new marines.
since you delayed his tech so much, personally, i would have sent speed lings for early game and went 3 hatch instead of 2 hatch (take extra gas) and forego those expensive sunks. anyways, 2 hatch was good too. after you got lurks, he didn't have science vessels yet. terran simply can't move out of base without science vessels if you have lurks. you should have put ur lurks along the main path with hold lurker. that would have given you at least 1-2 minutes before he get science vessels, or maybe he'll just be dumb and get all his MM chewed up by ur hold lurks. with 2 minutes of basically free time, you could grab an expo, and have muta scourge up ready for his science vessels, and have your hive start morphing. instead, you morphed a third sunken, massed lings, and had ur lurks sitting in base.
i'm noticing that the terran has no idea he should be getting science vessels. you should have been building more drones and taking more gas expos, but instead u'r massing lings and lurkers off of what... 12 drones?
i'm at 12:00 right now. i'm thinking you really really need to make more drones and stop making lurker ling and sunkens. he doesn't have science vessels, he cannot attack you. he is giving you all the time in the world to mass and tech, but ur not doing anything.
instead of moving lurkers around the map in groups of 6-7, try 2-3 instead. you only need 2-3 to guard a choke point like a ramp, or to hold lurker to kill a shit load of MM. i'd say ur main problem is that you don't know why in zvt, zerg goes fast lurker and goes muta.
when zerg goes lurker, he can use hold lurker to murder MM (IE, have lurker burrowed at key places on the map, and tell them not to shoot even when they see MM. then you can tell them to shoot when the MM is right on top of them). lurker means that terran can't attack you until they have science vessel. that means zerg has time to mass expo after getting lurkers. you got lurkers, good job. u forgot to mass and power drones like crazy . also, spire is to get mutas to harass, and scourge to kill science vessels. you got ur spire up, but u didn't do much harassing. he didn't have science vessel, so u didn't need scourge. typically, it's good to group ~3 scrouge with ur group of mutas. marines shoot mutas before scourge, so grouping them together keeps our scourge alive long enough to kill the science vessel.
at 16:00, do you notice that you seriously only have ~8 drones? "i don't know why i lost" are u kidding? u don't need Econ 101 to know that you need drones.
Hold Lurker: tell a group of 2-3 lurker to move to a ramp that is -close- to the terran base. tell them to burrow. when they are burrowed, select them and an overlord, and press "hold position". now, when they see something, they don't shoot. when you see MM heading ur way, wait until they are right on top of the lurkers. then tell your lurkers to "stop". they'll stop holding position, and start shooting. typically you can kill mass marines.
muta harass: get a clump of mutas. group an overlord with them. now, when they move, they clump up really well. use them to harass. the purpose of muta harass is to pick off scvs, to pick off -stray- marines, to delay their tech by picking off building scvs, and to force them to make turrets which delays tech even more. muta harass also helps with them keeping their forces in base to prevent them attacking you, but if you have lurks, then that wont be the main reason to muta harass. make sure latency is set to low cause high latency will not let you muta harass. check out some replays with Savior's muta harass to see what i'm talking about. July uses muta harass to actually kill MM instead of just to harass the base, which is good too... if you are on network or something. what is really yummy to kill are scvs that are building starports or science facilities. then you know their science vessels are delayed even more, which means ur hold lurker will give you even MORE time to expand and power drones and get to defiler tech.
oh ya, i tend to prefer zerglings to scout instead of using mutas to scout. mutas are too important to harass with. zerglings are cheaper and just as fast.
unless you have defilers, don't attack terran. you can muta harass and mass expo, and kill his expos, but attacking his main that has bunker, MM, tanks, turrets is bad idea.
stop making sunkens damnit.
my 2 cents. if the tone is mean, it's not meant to be. i talk shit to myself too.
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Hello, I am a zerg from Cuba, when I started to play Zerg I realized that the more difficult game (at least for me) is the T vs Z because of the micro...in Z v T you have to move your units very well and try to don´t let the rran to expand... another thing, I think ultralisk, defilers and Guardians is great vs Terran. Is important to hide your construction at the begining of the game in order the terran don´t know what are you gonna do. Well, here in Cuba I am one of the best players of Starcraft and I play terran vs zerg very well, but, the best way to learn to play a Z v T is watching July and Savior games...THAT IS AWESOME !!! well I hope my advice turns your game into better...and if you want you can e-mail me nmh.aild@yahoo.com bye...
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awesome, thanks for all the help guys
yea, the reason I build all those sunkens. I was scared he would send all his firebats/rines/medics up to my main. But I guess my lurkers could stop him.
My drone scout at the start was to see if he was going 2 baracks or 1 baracks. Because I ussualy go lurkers first if I see 2 baracks, and mutas if only 1. Im not sure if that scout is really necessary.
I never knew how to hold lurkers before, I use to always spam "stop" >,<
thanks! ill try and build more drones too
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typically, what savior does is he goes muta harass.
muta harass will let you know what he is doing. doing 3 hatch muta harass (12 hatch, 11 pool) will let you get mutas soon enough so u know what he is doing, and it's strong enough so you can do whatever else you want to do after you see him do stuff.
the only thing about scouting with mutas is that if he goes 3-4 barrack very strong early game rush, he'll be able to do that before you get mutas. also, if he bunker rushes, mutas wont be in time for that. that is why you need to scout with a drone on some maps, but on this map, if you see his marines coming for you, you can build a creep colony and morph it into a sunken colony, and it'll be done before his marines get to your base (patch 1.12 made creep colonies and sunken colonies build REALLY fast).
i typically just make 1 sunken colony to prevent scvs from getting into my base. after that, i just keep overlord or zergling outside their base. when i see them coming, i make creep colony depending on how many i need.
on lost temple, it's small map, so you need creep colony ready and only morph to sunken when you see him coming. on this big map however, you don't need creep colony ready... you can build it when you see him coming and it'll finish in time.
ya, use hold lurker to contain... use muta to delay his science vessels. all this time, you need to power drones, expand, and tech to hive. you are safe because he can't attack you at all when you are lurker containing and muta harassing. think for a moment. if you KNEW that he WILL NOT be able to attack you for 2-3 minutes, what would you do?
also, think, if YOU KNOW he will attack you as soon as science vessels are out, and say that will be in another 3 minutes, that means early on, you can mass expand and make drones, and you only need to build forces a little bit before 3 minute mark. if you make units early, your economy isn't as great as it can be because you don't have enough drones. if you make units too late, they wont be there on time to stop his vessel+army.
typically, zergs stop the first MM push (that has vessels) with lurker/ling/muta. in this game though, since he wasn't getting vessels on time, you can time your defilers to come out right when he is attacking..
looking at pro replays, notice that zergs time their defilers perfectly. they mass drones, and manage to get dark swarm seriously at the last second when tanks MM and vessels are knocking on their door. that is gosu timing. that's how to maximize minerals and drone production.
typical zerg play: 1) 12 hatch, 11 pool, then another hatchery. make sunken and 6 zerglings. kill scv in ur base. morph 1 sunken to prevent other scvs from getting in. get lair asap. scout with zerglings (or overlord) to see if he is fast expanding or early pushing. 2) if he is right at ur doorstep, i typically go muta to force his marines to retreat to base. mutas harassing will kill his base big time if he doens't retreat shit. also, mutas and a group of speed lings will kill his containing force. 3) if he isn't at ur doorstep, or if u ended up pushing him back, lurker should come soon after mutas. use hold lurker to force him to stay in base. use mutas to harass and scout. estimate how long it'll be before he gets science vessels. typically, terrans go fast science vessels so it only gives zerg time to get an extra 1 or 2 expansions. - if terran has fast science vessels, make sure your timing on ur lurker/ling/muta army is good enough so you can be ready for his army when it moves out. the reason why zerg needs expansions is because typically, zerg has map control, and if you're going to make hatcheries, you might as well build them near new minerals. also, zerg units need a lot of gas. mutas lurkers scourge are gas heavy. - use scourge grouped with mutas to snipe science vessels. for zerg, gas is cheap. mutas look like 100/100 minerals/gas, but in reality, they are just 100 minerals. gas is cheap if you expand like you should. - try to time your defiler and swarm to be in time. ask yourself... what is terran doing and when will he attack. if you see him expand, get a good intuition on how long it'll be before he attacks when he expands (terran typically don't expand, and then attack 15 seconds later, obviously). - the key to ZvT is being very good with lurker/swarm. -- when you get swarm, if terran doesn't have map control, he's dead. if he's in his base and you have swarm, just play it like chess. don't throw everything at him at once. make sure your swarms are at perfect places. put 2 lurkers under each. charge in a few zerglings with lurkers so lurkers don't die before they get under swarm. move in slowly. have patience. swarm means positioning of lurkers is more important than number of lurkers. -- when you get swarm, if terran does have map control (he's all over the map and can go anywhere, he's not in his base...) that means you need to gain map control before you can kill him. marines and tanks are hard to kill in open areas with just swarm cause they move around so much. ultas will be more useful in this case... but swarm is still important. try to swarm on both sides. typically, one control group for me will be 3 lurkers, 6 lings, and 2 defilers. that's all you need to do a good flank. send them in, lings take tank hits, lurkers burrow, swarm goes up. bam. terran can't go that way. if you are attacking in front with normal shit, and u got that swarm up in the back, he's fucked. -- tanks are the most important to kill. try to cast swarm and put lurkers near his tanks. they wont be able to unsiege fast. u'll be able to kill at least a few tanks. when his tanks are dead, his attack is dead... even if he still has a shit load of marines. use swarm/lurk to kill his tanks. then he has to retreat, or he's screwed. -- if you are up by a lot (hell of expansions), then you can add other units in too, like ling/lurk/ultra, etc. but when starting out, really try to focus on being very very very good at the basic 3 lurker 6 ling 1-2 defiler control group. when you master this control group, everything else will come automatically.
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Calgary25938 Posts
I disagree with Code about 9 Pool on Peaks. Most Terrans are going to send an SCV to block your expansion, so you either roll the dice with 2 Drones or 9 Pool. You could 12 Pool, but that will make your expansion late, and if I'm going to Pool first I'd rather it be a 9, just in case he's only 1 Barracks and I can deal some damage. Then once those 6 Zerglings are out I would make only Drones and rely on Sunkens.
Ahh you did 9 after Ovie. I guess that's fine on this map. And you killed tons of SCVs so it paid off.
You followed up the 9 wrong. His initial attack is going to be late, as you just delayed him 3-4 SCV. This means you absolutely want to go 3 Hatch Lurkers with no Zerglings just pumping Drones. Alternatively you could try 2 Hatch Mutas. What you did, however, was have idle Larvae and spike to 500 minerals, then you added Zerglings. I think it's pretty bad to make Zerglings at this point when your economy is behind anyways from a 9 Pool. I mean it could be done but it's not ideal.
Yea now I can see why you're going to lose. He runs in kills a few Drones (looks like around 4?) and you're not replacing them, making Zerglings. That's a losing style, playing this half ass "all-in" style. You don't need units, you have Lurkers coming and he doesn't have his natural (even though he's inexplicably going for bottom right first). BUILD DRONES.
Okay so you killed the majority of his army and are still making Zerglings. My big advice is to reexamine the economics of Zerg; when to expand, when to make Drones, when to make units.
I also disagree with Code about Spire. You have to put it down when you 'feel' he's going to have Science Vessels. If you wait to build it until you see Vessels you're too far behind, and it's always good to be safe than sorry when it comes to having access to Scourge. That being said, a Spire was a huge investment this game because you have less than a dozen Drones on minerals. At this point in the game you should have 2 bustling bases and top left should be finished.
Wow so many Sunkens and nothing backing it up. Terran chews through that shit no big deal. No advice should really be needed here. Scout that and have backup to your Sunken line. You lost all your Drones, it's over, no need to continue this replay.
Oh my I'm glad I didn't close it. Now I'm certain you're clueless, to be frank. Making ~8 Mutalisks to suppliment your Lurker Ling army? And then running into his well defended natural? HES GOING WRAITH? hahah
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The general takeaway here is that whenever you spend on troops or sunkens, you're spending for the short-term; whereas if you instead spend that money on expansions and drones, you're building for the long term.
So, strategically, there are two main zerg mindsets that will lead you to victory, which you should flip between:
Classic Savior, GoRush style - Management: Spend as much as you can on drones/expansions so you gradually build up an economic advantage. So if you're building troops/sunkens before you need them, you'll feel very secure in the short-term but you're crippling yourself over the long run. You have to live on that fine edge of minimizing defense while still defending properly -- the closer the better.
Julyzerg style - All-in: At times when the opponent doesn't expect it, aim to have the most powerful army possible so that you can kill/cripple them right then. e.g. if you know your opponent is doing a fast expansion, aim to have 24 speedlings take out their natural as they move out. Or quickly tech and lurker drop their main while their troops are out of position. If you don't do significant damage with these attacks though, you fall behind in the game. If you don't attack, it's just as bad.
It sounds like after the opening you're somewhere in-between the two mindsets, building a lot of troops/defense for the short-term without doing much damage with them, thus putting you behind later on. At any given time, you need to strongly commit to one or the other (although you can flip at different times during the game). My advice is to practise the management style -- learn to scout well to know what your opponent is doing, and then try to survive with the MINIMUM possible troops/defense and maximizing your economy. That should be the basis of your game. Once you get that down pretty well, experiment with timings or watch replays to find when terran are vulnerable under what situations and exploit that.
btw, great posts, Code
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for 12 hatch 11 pool, what i normally do is i send out a drone when my overlord is 50% done building and i hide that drone behind my natural mineral patch. the scouting scv will come and notice my natural is empty, then it'll proceed to move into my main to scout. The timing just so happens that when it is in my main, it wont see any of my drones leave my main, so it wont feel necessary to go back to natural to block the natural hatch. all this time, i have my drone secretly behind my natural minerals somewhere, so i get to build the natural expo without the terran knowing i hid that drone there.
if for whatever reason, the scv does know i have a drone because it comes out and scouts (this happens like, one out of 15 games), i just build my natural hatchery so it's close to the minerals of my natural expansion, but leaving enough room so my 3rd hatchery (3 hatch build) will fit in too. this way... my natural hatch is up fast enough so i can pull drones from main to natural when main patch gets filled. also, my 3rd hatch will finish in time for it to start taking drones that are mining gas from the natural expo's extractor. summary: - hide drone behind natural mineral patch or somewhere safe when overlord 50% done. - if scv still blocks natural hatch, build 2nd hatchery close to minerals of natural, and build 3rd hatchery close to extractor of natural. 2nd hatchery needs to be fast to block bunker rush. 3rd hatchery needs to be in time, so when 2nd extractor goes up, the 3rd hatchery will be close to the extractor to helps drones.
edit: P.S. if terran is harassing the drone that's building the 2nd hatchery, you'll need 2 drones at ur natural. tell one drone to build hatchery at normal place. tell second drone to build hatchery at place that is close to minerals, but doesn't block the 3rd hatchery from being close to extractor. the scv can only block one at a time.
also, i never said that zerg should always forego spire. i just said that mutas are to: - scout - kill containing force, and to harass... basically giving zerg map control - harass to delay science vessels and group with scourge to kill science vessels
all three of these things are supporting roles that helps lurkers. u wont win games off of mutas. if though, in some games, you don't need to scout, don't need to get map control because terran noob already gave you map control, or if terran is a noob and isn't teching to vessels asap, then u don't need mutas that fast. keep in mind that a spire is pretty much the equivalent of plopping down another expo.
it's fine to contain with lurkers and forego mutas if u know that'll work. with the whole "get mutas and scourge just in case"... that's b.s. why the hell would you get units "just in case". you need to understand what the terran is doing, and build specifically for what he is doing. you don't build 10 sunkens "just in case", and you don't build 50 zerglings and 100 lurkers "just in case", and if you don't need mutas early on, then you don't need to make them "just in case". mutas are good, but if delaying by a minute or so will help your econ immensely, and doesn't hurt you ... then by all means, delay ur spire.
/flame
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Calgary25938 Posts
You do build units 'just in case'. Why do you think Zergs have Scourge randomly around looking for drops that they don't know are coming? Why do Protoss Cannon their expansions and leave High Templar there? Why do Zergs leave Defilers and build Nydus Canals at expansions? You do some things in Starcraft "just in case". And usually it entails leaving very specific units that will provide much more defense than the offense they would if they were in the main army.
Comparing 2 Scourge to 50 Zerglings and 100 Lurkers is BS and you know it.
You're not going to know when his Science Facility is up, unless you rushed Overlord Speed. That's why you need to guess when to build a Spire and when to have 2 Scourge out. Playing Starcraft and playing Starcraft with vision are two different games. You mentioned in your original comment "You build a Spire and he doesn't have Vessels." That's what's getting this all going. There's no way to tell if his Science Facility is up, and it seems logical to assume he would have started it, that's why it's logical to add a Spire and get Scourge.
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On June 26 2007 11:00 Chill wrote: You do build units 'just in case'. Why do you think Zergs have Scourge randomly around looking for drops that they don't know are coming? Why do Protoss Cannon their expansions and leave High Templar there? Why do Zergs leave Defilers and build Nydus Canals at expansions? You do some things in Starcraft "just in case". And usually it entails leaving very specific units that will provide much more defense than the offense they would if they were in the main army.
Comparing 2 Scourge to 50 Zerglings and 100 Lurkers is BS and you know it.
You're not going to know when his Science Facility is up, unless you rushed Overlord Speed. That's why you need to guess when to build a Spire and when to have 2 Scourge out. Playing Starcraft and playing Starcraft with vision are two different games. You mentioned in your original comment "You build a Spire and he doesn't have Vessels." That's what's getting this all going. There's no way to tell if his Science Facility is up, and it seems logical to assume he would have started it, that's why it's logical to add a Spire and get Scourge.
what the fuck are you talking about. zvt is all about getting the minimum required stuff to defend so you can expand as much as possible, and so you can get to hive as soon as possible while powering drones as much as possible. the better the zerg knows the terran build order, and the better timing and intuition and understanding the zerg has, the better the zerg will be able to postpone stuff until last second, in order to favor drone production.
i thought every zerg player knows that timing and intuition about when vessels come out is key. i'm not talking about playing with vision, you stupid noob. i'm talking about having intuition and timing and knowing if he has a normal size MM and tank force, then you know that when ur lurkers pop, his vessels will be at least a minute or so in coming. maybe you need vision to know that. if his vessels are going to take another minute, the only reason to get mutas is to harass and to get map control. if the terran isn't in front of your base, then just take map control with lurkers and wait a while before getting mutas (take expo before spire). no worries, mutas will still be out to scout roughly when his science facility is finishing, and you'll know to get scourge in time.
mutas and scourge, by all means need to come before vessels and dropships, but the opposite is also true. even if you don't have vision, you can tell when his vessels or dropships are going to pop by looking at the size of his army. getting mutas too early instead of teching faster or powering more is like going 9 pool instead of 12hatch11pool when 9pool doesn't help you.
when you finally do get mutas after taking another expo, you still don't need to get scourge until you know he has vessels. this doesn't mean your mutas are there to see his vessels pop out. it means you see a starport with mutas, so wherever his science facility is, you know it'll be done in this amount of time, and his vessel will be done in this amount of time, and his irradiate will be ready in this amount of time.
and ur examples are completely off, it's like you are saying shit just to disprove me and not thinking about game examples at all. if you are pvz and protoss is making cannons, those cannons aren't "just in case" because u know if those cannons aren't there, the zerg is going to take out your expo. getting scourge is a completely different matter. if your mutas see that he isn't going startport for some noob reason, you don't need to get scourge to kill dropships and vessels "just in case" because there IS NO JUST IN CASE... he's not fucking making dropships. if your mutas see starport, then by all means make scourge with ur mutas. don't be stupid.
oh ya, on a side note, send your first 6 or so lings halfway up his ramp and retreat. see how many marines he has. if he has a lot, like, 7-8, u know he's doing a standard 2 barracks build order and probably pushing, so get ready to pop down ~4 colonies when you see him move out. if he has a few, like 4 marines, you know he's probably doing a one barrack build order, and fast expoing or fast teching.
hahahaha, chill, just chill. here's some timing stuff for you guys:
if zerg goes 12hatch11pool: - normally, ur first 6 lings will see 7-8 marines. in this case, if he puts pressure on you and camps outside your natural, you'll need mutas to harass his base and kill containment and take map control (this is what happens like, 75% of games). mutas will be just in time pretty much. if he doesn't put pressure on you, but he's building normal size of MM and tank, then you know when lair is done, he'll probably stil be 1 minute away from vessels (this is typical if he has the normal size of MM and tanks). in this case, just use lurker to take map, and delay ur spire by half a minute or so to either take expo or tech to hive faster (terrans don't normally camp in base with normal size of MM and tank though... normally, he'll be camping outside your natural. this second case is just for your game cause ur terran was a noob). - if ur first 6 lings only see like, 4 marines instead of 7-8, and if he doesn't have tank as early as he should, and if he isn't in front of your base with enough shit, you know he's either going fast dropship, or fast vessels, or fast expo. - if he only had 4 marines, AND if ur ling behind his natural doesn't see new command center by the time ur 3rd hatchery halfway done or so, you know he's not getting fast expo obviously (or his fast expo is retardedly slow) and he's obviously going either fast dropship or fast tank or fast vessels (fast tech). - if he's going fast tech, you should get ling speed earlier than normal, you should get mutas even if your lurkers have map control (notice that if he isn't getting fast tech, you don't need mutas if your lurkers have map control). ur mutas will know if he's getting dropship or vessels or tanks or what. ling speed is necessary because fast tech leads to a lot of scenarios when lings will be useful. - if he is fast teching straight for tanks, his tanks will be at ur door slightly before mutas are up, but his army wont be as big, and your sunks will be able to delay him long enough for mutas to pop. use mutas to snipe his 1 or 2 tanks. then harass with mutas and forget his marines at ur natural. also since you have ling speed, you can just muta/ling his containing force since even though he has tank, the tank will be early and he would have less MM so his shit will be small. - if he is fast teching to dropship, his dropship will get to you like, right exactly to the second when ur 9 mutas pop. use speed lings and mutas to take out his drop, patrol some scourge, use muta to harass, get lurkers. at this point, he'll have less MM and tank than normal, but his vessels will be faster cause he went fast starport. deciding to go fast expo, or to attack more is your call. - if he is fast teching to vessel, ur mutas will pop, and if u don't notice dropship soon, scout with mutas and u'll see he is getting fast vessels though vessel wont be up quite yet. he'll probably attack as soon as his vessel is up, but as soon as his vessel is dead, that'll probably delay his next attack by half a minute... and his MM and tank force will be smaller than normal (but still nice size). try to use muta and scourge to try to pick off vessel. hold lurker should be as close to his base as possible. when his vessel come close to ur lurkers, use muta/scourge to chase it away but try not to let ur muta or scourge cahse it too far, just far enough so he can't see your lurkers. every time his tanks siege to kill lurks, unburrow lurks and move them just a little bit back. if you are using muta/scourge to play tag with his vessel, and if his tanks keep having to siege/unsiege, most noobs will end up taking extra time to get to ur base which gives you time to power and to build up shit. (you'll have 2-3 bases, he'll have 1).
see how much stuff you can predict without needing vision?
i play ZvT and TvZ. When I'm playing terran, i get a sense for the different things the terrran can do, and how to tell what the terran is doing, and timing for the different things. know a lot of the stuff i'm doing, the zerg will be able to tell based on indirect things like how many marines i have, when i move out, and whether i expand or not. that's why when i play terran, i tend to choose really obscure things to do so zerg predicts wrong. for example, i think hiding a 3rd barracks in the middle of nowhere is pretty imbalanced for TvZ. zerg has like, almost no way, besides luck, of knowing terran is going 3 barrack timing rush.
i even do shit like 4 barrack timing rush with cutting scvs (if it sounds like an all in, it's because it is). when i'm going 4 barrack marines, zerg doesn't know if i have 2 baracks in teh middle of nowhere making shit. if i have like, 10 marines, but i hide 6 in my base, and only put 4 at my ramp, zerg doesn't know if i'm teching or if i'm just being evil. haha. 99.9% of terran doesn't do stuff like hide marines in base and only put 4 at ramp to make zerg thing it's fake tech, so luckily for most zergs (at least when i'm playing zerg), but i think 4 barrack timing rush with hiding marines in base is one of those few things that zerg simply can't predict... and if all zergs prepared for it just in case, their econ would be really hit hard and they'll have trouble dealing with the normal stuff. uhm, ya, that's a huge tangent.
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Calgary25938 Posts
Okay, talk to me like I'm a D- scrub. Frankly I'm not going to read your post.
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Calgary25938 Posts
PS I'd love to play some ZvT with you, great master. Let me know when.
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On June 26 2007 13:04 Chill wrote: PS I'd love to play some ZvT with you, great master. Let me know when.
r u zerg or terran player? lol, so you're trying to prove your zerg is better than my zerg, by beating me when i'm playing my off race? haha, and whatever the case, i know you're going to fast muta no matter what i do, because you love getting muta "just in case". how about, i'll fast expo, and if you dont get muta "just in case", you automatically lose because you are giving advice out of your ass. hahaha.
EDIT: i'm sad that you wont read my post... it's like, i'm trying to talk strategy and u for some reason, you are getting all defensive and taking this all personally. i thought this is the strategy forum BRO!!!!. lets talk STRATEGY!!! COMON CHILL!?!?? where's your fucking strategy!!! oh wait, you gave up!! ahahaha!!! XD, you're funny. you're like a black guy "comonnnnn, wtf, you wanna fight, huh!?!? we'll take this outside... i'm smarter than you and we'll prove it out in the hall, yo! fo shizzle my nizzle" hahah XD
sorry to the op. i'm trying to be constructive, but there's idiots everywhere who get worked up when they get defensive. me: "on the contrary my dear watson, i believe that this particular line of logic is flawed because... this... and this... and this..." chill: "WTF YOU BITCH, LETS TAKE THIS OUTSIDE, i'm not even going to listen to your shit, comon lets fight. huh!? huh!? ya!!! BITCH" me: "lolz, maybe u say ur not a noob, but u sure have the self esteem of one."
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Calgary25938 Posts
You just said you play TvZ. I play Z.
On June 26 2007 12:45 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote: i play ZvT and TvZ. When I'm playing terran
How about you keep talking.
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On June 26 2007 13:02 Chill wrote: Okay, talk to me like I'm a D- scrub. Frankly I'm not going to read your post.
well... u wouldn't know what my main race is, seeing how u didn't read my post right?
if you are chill, don't click below and just keep posting. better yet, if you are chill, don't read anything, just assume i'm talking about your personal worth as a human being, which you, being you, would assume is an insult (though i wouldn't know why... unless it's impossible to talk about your innate worth without insulting it) + Show Spoiler + i start game as zerg. if other dude goes p or t, i stay zerg. if other dude goes z, i switch to terran. for wathever reason, i actually end up beig terran like, 1/10 games instead of 1/3 (probably because people who are normally zerg, when tehy see i'm zerg, end up being t or p instead of still being zerg), but still, i like playing both sides of a matchup.
eagerly awaiting your replay, as the Donal Trump once said "God... I hate stupid people... but then i think, where would i be if it weren't for stupid people. Then, stupid people... they just make me feel so good inside."
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Calgary25938 Posts
If you don't open Mutas, you don't know his Starport timing. You guess on Spire timing and guess on Scourge timing and position.
Somehow you vehemently disagree with this.
PM me when you want to play.
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play as... terran? ur still not reading my posts u idiot. which of us is going to play as terran to prove their worth as a zerg player? maybe if u found a third party terran... then we'll talk. but just to make the game relevent, you have to go muta no matter what, and i'm free to delay my mutas if i feel necessary, and terran can do whatever he wants, like fast expo. haha.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On June 26 2007 13:19 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote: if other dude goes z, i switch to terran.
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If you don't build a spire just in case, you risk losing all your expansions or at least the drops there, to dropships, maybe even your some of your main. UNLESS OF COURSE: You have sunkens and lings defending your expo, just in case. Its as simple as that. If you don't have scourge ready for against dropships, you're going to lose, or at least, be in a worse position than he should be. Notice how savior always has scourge ready in drop routes? If he didn't have those scourge he would he lost: Vs hwasin in the msl, vs oov on python, vs iris on arkonoid. etc.
In fact its just utterly retarded NOT to make scourge in case of dropship, 75 gas 25 mins or the whole game? HMMMM.
EDIT: I'm assuming off a lurker build. Also rine count isn't always a good tell, what if the T had a macro slump? You notice the is mising OH NO 4 RINES HE MUST HAVE VESSEL COMING SOON. You can't just base when you'll need a spire off bullshit, you're simply going to have them ready at the typical earliest time it would seem a T would be able to get dropships, and less importantly vessels.
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Osaka26959 Posts
Code, maybe you should manner up considering that Chill is a very good zerg player, and one of the few people in the strategy section that consistantly takes the time to give good advice. You can tell it like you see it, but when your mediocre advice comes under attack, keep your manner or stop posting.
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