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This article is about the diversity (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion) of the champion selection in the LCS Worlds 2013. I'll be comparing some data with 2012 World's as well.
I am relatively new to the game, the first time I ever saw a game played was the 2012 World Championship between TPA and Azubu Frost. I had no idea what was going on, but I was there because of the CSL. Some of my fellow admins were trying to explain what was happening but I didn't understand much. It wasn't until February that I really started playing the game actively. I have watched some of the World Championships this year and one thing that struck me was that I would see the same champions played over and over and over and over again. I would rate myself a casual fan of the game, and I thought to myself that seeing the same pool of champions played continuously was pretty boring. This isn't meant to be a negative post mind you, but I want to address the issue of diversity in champions and take a look at why so few champions are being played, what this says about the game, and think of some solutions.
Again, I'll be using data from 2013 LCS World's, taken from Leaguepedia as well as my own personal compilation of statistics I made from the 2012 World's.
Examining 2013 World's
According to Leaguepedia, a total of 66 games were played at World's this year [an important side note, especially as I've seen a lot of complaints about the format and games on Reddit: this is more than double the amount of games (31) played at 2012 World's] and 69 total champions. That's 60% of the 115 total champions. However, if we exclude some of the 'troll' picks that happened in some of the later group stage games when teams had already been eliminated from contention, we whittle the pool down to roughly 55, or about 48% of total champions. Note that this is slightly subjective; I'll include the list of champions I thought were 'troll picks' at the end of the article. For all intents and purposes though, we can conclude that about 50% of the champions available were played.
Whether you think this is a good or bad thing depends largely on your perspective, whether you view the glass half full or half empty. Taking a slightly deeper look however reveals something that I consider to be problematic.
Looking deeper
Looking at the percentage a champion was picked or banned shows us that while 55 champions were played at World's this year, a much much smaller number were seen repeatedly. only 23 champions were picked or banned at least 25% of the time, with Zed topping the list with a 100% pick/ban rate. The other 33 champions were picked about 10% of the time or less.
In total there were 660 picks at World's, the 23 champions comprised almost 75% of all picks, meaning 3/4 of the time we saw the same champions getting played, or not if you like Zed, he was literally banned 55 times. The conclusion I draw from this is that in the current state of the game, there are roughly 20-25 champions that are "viable" in competitive play, viable enough that is, for them to be played on the biggest stage. While it may be fun to see Anivia top or Yorick or Poppy, they're simply not good enough to be played with millions of dollars on the line.
To me, this represents a problem. If the game continues this way, the spectating experience will become stale. Adding new champions to the game won't matter if competitive play stagnates around the same 20-25 champions.
Before looking at why I think this is the case, let me briefly compare numbers to 2012.
Examining 2012 World's
The first note is that this year there are 115 available champions. Last year there were just 104 champions from which to choose (I didn't include Kha'Zix who was released just a week before the championship, so I'm assuming he was unavailable for competitive play at the time). In 2012, there were 54 total champions played at World's, or about 52% of the total champions. Because of the nature of the tournament, with just a round robin group stage and simple bracket, I postulate that there weren't any 'troll' picks similar to this year, because fewer games inherently means each one is valued more highly, decreasing the likelihood of a team intentionally using strange champions for the sake of fun.
The overall percentage is roughly the same, 52% last year vs 50% this year. Last year's sample size is smaller however, so just take that into consideration. The Zed of last year was definitely Ezreal, who was picked in 77% of all games (I didn't calculate bans but I'm sure he's close to the 100% rate of Zed). This year we saw 23 champions with at least a 25% pick/ban rate, last year there were only 13.
At first when I was looking at the champions from 2012 it seemed that the champion pool was larger, we see roughly the same trend. About half the champions are played, and a still smaller selection of champions (about 20) are "competitively viable," which I define as being played at least 20-25% of the time at World's.
If you're interested in checking out the data, look below: + Show Spoiler +
Let's look at champions: 2013
Based on the data from 2013 World's, we can make pretty poignant observations about the way the game is played today. While most people may think these points are common knowledge, I find it interesting to examine. After comparing the type of champions played this year and last year, I'll briefly think about what this means for next year's LCS as well as the game as a whole. Personally, I don't think it's good that 75% of the champions made aren't viable competitively!
In the mid lane.... assassins
Zed, Fizz, Kassadin, Ahri were played almost every game in mid. 56 of 69 actually. All these champions have similar characteristics: they can dash in, deal an incredible amount of burst damage, and dash out of a fight. They're relatively squishy, but each has enough mobility to combat it, with Fizz's E (making him briefly untargetable) possibly being the strongest.
The reason I believe these assassin types have dominated the game this year is because this year's crop of players are far superior mechanically. This highlights a general trend of a growing game, and can be similarly found in the development of Brood War. As players got stronger mechanically, they began to take more bases and multi-task more effectively. This is the League of Legends equivalent, the mid trend exemplifies the evolving nature of the game that rewards players who are able to execute many different moves quickly.
In the jungle.... the mighty jungle
Elise, Jarvan, Vi, Zac, Lee Sin were picked a total of 97 times. Again, all these junglers share the same basic characteristic that is also the same as the mid assassins previously mentioned. Each of the junglers has a "dash in," or gap closer. Zac has his jump, Elise has her E, Jarvan his spear, and Lee Sin does his dive thing. This quality is especially important to have for a jungle, as it makes ganking more powerful. The second characteristic they share is a sort of knock up/stun.
All of these junglers dart into a battle (or as a gank), stun their opponent, do damage, and dart back into the jungle. This is also why I believe the assassin mid laners are so popular this year, because mid lane has the easiest access to the rest of the map and allows an effective mid laner the ability to gank other lanes. One can do this much more effectively with a gap closer like Zed's W than on Malzahar or Karthus for example.
Thinking about a marksmen (or ADC)
Corki, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Vayne were picked a total of 91 times. The characteristic that these adc's have that are also shared by both the junglers and mid laners are their gap closers. Caitlyn and Corki can essentially rocket themselves, and Ezreal and Vayne have flashes. The notable exception here is Varus, who was picked 17 times despite not having any gap closer or escape. I believe this is because of his powerful ult, which is a single/multi target stun.
Without being repetitive, I believe this highlights a very clear pattern in how the game is currently being played.
Are top lanes the same? Yep
Shen, Aatrox, Renekton, Jax (I'm aware that Aatrox can be played in both jungle and top lane). Add in Kennen top as well. Again all of these characters have gap closers. Shen is especially deadly at this level of play because of his global ult. This allows him to always be a part of the team even when he is physically in another location. His strength lies in the versatility this brings, as well as his ability to shield an ally with his ult.
In addition, Aatrox, Renekton, and Jax are all very powerful duelists. If they are left to free farm in their lane or get fed early, they become almost impossible to shut down. Top in my opinion, seems to be a snowball lane; with champions that command attention lest they snowball and become unkillable. These champions in particular, perhaps even more so than the mid assassins because the top champions are also tanks and can initiate fights.
The lonely supports. If you can't grab or stun, gtfo
Zyra, Sona, or Thresh... or Leona. Basically the support's role is to stun enemies, or grab ahold of them. The role of support however, hasn't changed since last year. I believe this is the primary reason the community has been so vocal about the role of support over the past few months.
While every other role has had a noticeable shift in 'what's viable,' the support role has been the same for the past two years. This, to me, says stagnancy is bad. This is also why I believe the current state of the game is potentially problematic. Before going into that, I briefly want to examine the champions played in 2012.
Let's look at champions: 2012
In the mid lane...
Karthus, Oriana, and Anivia were particularly dominant in the mid lane last year. We also saw champions such as Morgana and Cassiopia get playing time. The very clear trend was: burst damage, and slows/stuns. The mid lane was not mobile, but packed a punch. Their utility came in the fact that they were AP carry's: they would stand back in a fight, deal a ton of burst damage, and have AoE stuns or slows that were highly effective both in team fights and in lane.
Variety in the jungle... I like it
Last year, Nunu was definitely king of the jungle. Maokai was also highly popular in the jungle. Despite the fact that Nunu and Maokai were really popular, we saw a lot more jungle variety last year: Skarner, Shyvana, Udyr, Malphite, Xin Zhao, Evelyn, Amumu, Nocturne all got playing time. There weren't as many "go to" junglers. It should be noted that neither Zac, Elise, or Vi existed last year!
Either Riot, or the players themselves, hadn't quite figured out the jungle role in 2012. In this sense, we can look at this year as the defining of the jungle playstyle.
ADCs Ezreal
Ezreal, Corki, and Kog Maw represented the holy trinity of ADC's. Graves also got a lot of playing time last year. I've already discussed Ezreal and Corki; but Kog Maw and Graves both have very different play styles. Interestingly Vayne wasn't played very much last year.
Top laners; oh it's just Shen
Shen was once again an incredibly popular pick. He's way too useful to not be picked. Jayce, Vladimir, and Irelia were also very popular picks in the top lane. Vladimir did see some play this year, but not nearly as much as last year. Also my boy Mundo was picked more than a few times, but his pick seems to be more of a specialized style choice than anything else.
Supports haven't changed, they've only gotten more efficient
The general idea of supports were the same (note: Thresh wasn't around last year). Sona was the queen and was picked over 50% of the time. Also very popular were Taric, Leona, Blitzcrank, and Zyra. For some reason, Taric fell out of favor in 2013, and Blitzcrank was replaced by Thresh. Again - the problem here is the support role and champions have essentially remained the same.
Where'd That Champ Go?
I want to interrupt this pseudo seriosu article to play a little game: where he go? If you're a fan of the NBA, you've likely seen this mini show on Inside the NBA called Who he play for. It's hilarious.
This is just a series of shoutouts and random thoughts about champions that were here yesterday and are gone today. This may be a stupid section because last year I didn't play the game and there may be some obvious answers I just don't know.
Maokai : Literally played in 50% of every game at 2012 World's and not only was he not picked or banned once this year, I don't think he appeared in all of the LCS. What happened?
Irelia : I never really understood Irelia, Riven, and Fiora. They seem like the same champion to me (kind of how Katy Perry, Pink, and Miley Cyrus all sound the same to me). They also seem to fit the mold of today's trend in that they're "dash-y" champions, except I guess they aren't beefy enough for top lane. Either way, what happened to Irelia?
Anivia and Graves : A pretty popular mid laner and pretty popular adc in 2012 that couldn't even get a single pick or ban this year.
Jayce : Jayce was an incredibly popular and powerful champion in 2012. Aside from one troll pick, he was nonexistent this year. Actually in general, "poke" compositions seem to be out of favor, which I believe is why champions like Lux, Jayce, and Nidalee aren't popular anymore. This brings up the question: why did poke compositions fall out of favor and mobility compositions become so wildly popular. I believe the answer lies in mechanics, but this is very open to debate.
The problem with stale gameplay
There has been a very clear shift in the way the game is played from 2012 to 2013. This shift is reflected in the choice of champions: players today favor highly mobile champions that can do tremendous burst damage. Supports are still supports. My primary belief is that the increasing mechanical ability of players lends itself to playing increasingly mobile champions. The problem lies in the fact that I don't believe this trend will change unless there are changes to the game design overall.
Why would a team siege a turret when 3 of the champions can dive in, score a kill, and dive back out before the turret does fatal damage? Why would anyone play a slow mid laner when they can play one who can more easily gank other lanes. Why would one play a jungler who slowly lumbers from the bush to a lane for a gank when you can dive in quicker than the opponent can react? These are very important questions because it highlights the superiority of the small group of champions currently being played.
There are dozens of amazing champions, but they are just not as useful as "the select few." So what's the problem?
Variety helps build and maintain interest. To put it more practically: there are viewers who may be turned off from watching competitive matches in which their favorite champions are never played. I love playing Viktor and in two years I haven't seen him play in a competitive match. Or let's say I love Viktor, Poppy, Talon, LeBlanc, and Galio. In two years of World's these five champions have never once been picked or banned.
This year in the finals we saw a situation in which, Jarvan and Lee Sin were swapped by the teams, SKT picked him one game, then Royal picked him the next. This is boring. It takes the fun out of the champion selection process because it kills the excitement and anticipation. "I wonder what champion they're going to use" becomes "I wonder which team will pick J4 this game." Jarvan, Sona, and Jax were played in every single finals game. Aside from the fact that the games were one sided, we saw the same one sided game happen 3 times.
What are some counter arguments and why are they wrong
- On the biggest stage you only want to play your best champion, and pro players can only reasonably master a small number of champions which leads to a small pool being used in the finals. This is true! However, part of the fun is in preparing for a match. How well a team can adapt to an unfavorable situation is much more exciting for viewers and speaks more about the true value of the team. If for example, a team was forced to improvise or play without their top champions it would create more uncertainty and lead to more exciting result. I'm NOT advocating for randomness in these matches, my possible solutions will come later.
- It's really hard to balance the game and the fact that they even have 50 different champions seeing playing time is pretty impressive! Again this is true, but I argue that Riot's goal should always be to increase the number. For the last two years it has hovered around 50% of champions. Think about it from a business perspective: Riot has an interest in having the greatest number of champions played at the World Finals as possible because that way they can attract fans who play the greatest number of champions. There are many different levels of fan, and some may only be interested in watching competitive matches in which his/her champion are played. If half the champions never see the light of day at World's, then Riot is essentially losing out on a large number of potential viewers.
TL;DR of issues
- The small variety of champions almost all have the same basic gameplay elements. This makes the games play out the same way, causing redundancy that shouldn't exist in a game that has so many different heroes and team compositions.
- The small amount of diversity creates a stale viewing experience
- Potential viewers (customers) are not able to get as much enjoyment because half the champions are not being played
How can these issues be fixed?
Increase the number of bans
The first possible solution is simple: increase the number of bans to 5-6. Increasing the number of bans will force players to expand their champion pool. Currently there are a finite number of "dash" type champions that dominate competitive play. Increasing the number of bans will create a situation where a team will have to experiment with different team compositions. Furthermore, an additional bonus to increasing the number of bans to 5 is that a team can then opt to ban an entire team composition. This adds another layer of intrigue to the pick/ban stage.
If bans are made for entire team compositions rather than individual champions (I.E. Annie is banned against Royal because their Annie support is incredibly difficult) it will not only make players expand their champion pool, but entire teams will have to come to a tournament with multiple different play styles and game plans.
Create a "competitive pool"
Each year, or each split, Riot can create an overall pool of champions available for competitive play. This way every year or split or however, the pool will be different (much like the free champion rotation) and viewers will always be treated to some variety in competitive matches. This also will force players to learn different champions based on the pool, rather than sticking with a smaller handful of champions they are most comfortable with and using them in every situation.
As long as Riot picks the pool carefully in order to keep it balanced, and the pool is standardized across regions so every region plays with the same pool, this could alleviate the issues.
Buff less mobile champions
This is a much more difficult change because it involves actual game play. Current competitive play shows that high mobile champions who have dashes/gap closers/escapes are undoubtedly stronger than champions without the mobility advantage. If less mobile champions are buffed to make them viable in different ways so that picking a mobile champion isn't always a no brainer, the problem can be alleviated.
Unfortunately, my precise knowledge about League of Legends and game design are not sufficient enough to offer more detailed advice here. I will think out loud for a moment.
Thought experiment: Viktor vs Kassadin
Kassadin is great, he's an assassin. Let's say I'm doing well in my lane and I decide to gank top. Let's assume the opposing top lane doesn't have an escape (i.e. someone like Cho Gath or Sion). I can walk up top, hide in the bush, rift walk to Sion, use my Q W E, ignite. At this point Sion is running to his tower. I rift walk again under the tower, Q W E and Sion is dead. I rift walk a 3rd time out of tower range and TP back home.
The key here is the 2nd volley. If I don't kill him with my first combo, I can safely get a 2nd combo and still escape.
Now let's think about Viktor: same situation, I'm reasonably fed and doing well in lane and want to gank top. I walk up top, hide in the bush, drop my W and hopefully stun him. I throw my ult down right after my W, then Q, then E. After the stun Sion starts running to his tower. From there, maybe I flash in for another combo but then the tower kills me.
I can get the kill in this situation, but only if I sacrifice flash and my own life. Kassadin does neither, gets the kill, and lives.
As Viktor in this case, I need to be way more fed than the opposing player and kill him with my first volley. This is more or less possible depending on the specific champion (I.E. maybe Malzahar has more kill potential than Viktor because of his suppress ult), but the point is the same. Without the gap closer, I don't have as much kill potential in a 1v1 or any situation unless it's a team fight and I'm very protected.
Thought experiment: Resolving Kassadin vs Viktor
This is a tricky situation. One possible solution is to buff all Viktor's spells. For example, make his W stun more quickly and make the stun last longer. Reduce the cooldowns so I can get 2 combos off before a champ has a chance to run out of my range. Or edit the W so that if you successfully stun the target it decreases the cooldown substantially so you have the potential of double stunning, essentially forcing them to use an escape spell or Flash to get out.
This is really tricky because buffing Viktor's spells may make him way too powerful in lane and allow him to snowball much more quickly (if you're super fed/snowballed it doesn't matter if you have escapes, gank slowly, or not... you'll get kills easily).
Or maybe make the base move speed of mage casters higher, which will make them more mobile when they get boots, or add some sort of move speed multiplier for boots rather than just a flat rate so that mages get extra speed for getting boots. This helps them escape and also allows them to gank more successfully without having them play exactly as assassins.
Where do we go from here
2012 World's set records for concurrent online viewership of a video gaming tournament. 2013 World's set records for largest single event attendance in North America; Riot rented out the Staples Center which officially put video game players on the same floor as professional athletes. These are all amazing things.
No empire however, is resistant to collapse. I'm not arguing that this problem is significant enough to destroy the game, but I do believe it represents a potentially troubling trend. Two years in a row with a 50% usage rate of champions, and this year game play is becoming even more standardized.
I've outlined three possible ideas for what Riot can do to alleviate and solve the issues (in my opinion!), and I'm sure there are others. Personally, I think League of Legends is an amazingly deep and complex game and I happen to love playing it. Even if the problems aren't solved I hope that people can at least think about them and try to find new creative ways to keep the games and most importantly... the viewing experience as new and exciting as possible.
Thanks for reading!
- Xeris
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United States47024 Posts
The main thing with addition of bans is that they need to be interwoven/multi-phase bans (which we've had on the table for discussion for a long time, but Riot seems staunchly opposed to). I honestly don't think addition of more first-phase bans goes anywhere.
The thing about first phase bans is this: they are 100% predictive, and the opponent makes no real commitment to anything before they happen. Because of this, there's inherent risk in using those for anything other than the most basic bans. You aren't banning what the other team uses. You are banning what you THINK they use. You can't know how damaging your bans are to their overall plan, because they have not shown anything or committed anything yet. As such, first phase bans will fundamentally be conservative and restricted to things like banning OP champs or signature heroes, rather than for a more complex usage against a particular team-comp. The risk in committing all 5 bans to that is too high.
Interwoven bans have the advantage of being reactive. A second banning phase after some number of picks means that the opponent is committed to something. They have something invested that your bans can be used to directly attack. There's more real and tangible benefit to your bans rather than just guess-work.
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I dont want to be a bitch, but reading Ezrael over and over makes my brain hurt, please edit the name to properly reflect how the character is named. x_x
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On October 08 2013 18:06 TheYango wrote: The main thing with addition of bans is that they need to be interwoven/multi-phase bans (which we've had on the table for discussion for a long time, but Riot seems staunchly opposed to). I honestly don't think addition of more first-phase bans goes anywhere.
The thing about first phase bans is this: they are 100% predictive, and the opponent makes no real commitment to anything before they happen. Because of this, there's inherent risk in using those for anything other than the most basic bans. You aren't banning what the other team uses. You are banning what you THINK they use. You can't know how damaging your bans are to their overall plan, because they have not shown anything or committed anything yet. As such, first phase bans will fundamentally be conservative and restricted to things like banning OP champs or signature heroes, rather than for a more complex usage against a particular team-comp. The risk in committing all 5 bans to that is too high.
Interwoven bans have the advantage of being reactive. A second banning phase after some number of picks means that the opponent is committed to something. They have something invested that your bans can be used to directly attack. There's more real and tangible benefit to your bans rather than just guess-work.
Adding on to that that you need to have backup plans and a specific order of picking your comp. You can't show your hand early, or the other team could ban out the trump card that the comp relies on. Plus it might be able to force the extremely stale champion select into something more exciting. In a Bo5 teams ban the same champions over and over, because it is the most effective way of doing bans/picks.
Think about it, the biggest cheers in champ select are when someone fucking troll selects Teemo or some other signature champion before switching back to their safe pick a few seconds later. It would be great for the viewing experience too to haver multi-phased bans. More bans would also mean more champions in the pool of picks and bans, which we do need, even though this WC was a bit less monotone than last year.
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On October 08 2013 18:17 Usagi wrote: I dont want to be a bitch, but reading Ezrael over and over makes my brain hurt, please edit the name to properly reflect how the character is named. x_x
done lol
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I'm only Bronze, but I'm a fairly avid spectator. My 2 bob:
I do agree with the notion of increasing bans, but I think this only helps cover the problem of design. There is never going to be 100% competitive viability, but there certainly can be more done.
I think some champs are just flat out better. This isn't necessarily bad, but the main offenders are sooooooo far above similar champs that it's ridiculous. The classic example of recent times is Thresh. He is an abomination of design. Literally everything a Support would want. Initiates, CC galore, disengage, harass, gets stats without building items, shields, and the lantern. I can literally think of no draw backs (I'd love to hear some if I'm being naive). The only Support that seems to be able to oppose him is Sona, just because multi-target stuns are gold during a team fight. I mean if you want a competitive match and want to win, why play anything besides Thresh?
This problem persists to other roles as well. I'm currently reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally fed up with seeing the like of Jarvan and Shen. I'm mean the current trend for how games are played lends itself to certain champs, but it does get tired.
Speaking for mid lane (which is the one I know most about), the mechanics point is valid. But there is fundamental difference between the champs that go there. Broadly you have 3 categories: Assassins (e.g. Zed), Utility mages (e.g. Orianna) and Burst mages (e.g. Veigar). Assassins are ruling at the moment, but you do see the occasional utility mage. You never see a burst mage. This class is simply overshadowed.
I'd say there is a few reasons for this. Firstly the mobility creep plays a factor. Champs being more mobile means burst mages, which are reliant on CC or landing skill shots to get most of their damage off, are at a disadvantage. TheSecondly, most utility mages offer enough damage anyway. Might as well run one and get the additional CC.
Example, actually mentioned by Morello, was Brand vs Ahri. Both high damage, very similar CC (skillshot stun). One is highly mobile once 6 hits. Is Brand's damage and AoE enough to make up for Ahri's mobility? Currently the answer is no. You could make the case that mobility offers more to a champ, so shouldn't Brand have superiority in another area (he has more AoE, but it isn't enough really)? These sort of examples are rife.
The solution isn't a nerf wave either. Say for instance if all the current assassins are nerfed. I have no doubt Orianna would become first pick/ban status. Then the cycle repeats.
Basically, buffs I'd say are needed. Champs need to offer something over someone else. Do want Ahri's mobility? Or Brand's raw damage? The choice is very easy at the moment. Stop giving everyone major amounts of mobility, or increase the mobility of all champs.
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i swear to god i read an almost exact ban/pick analysis in 2007-2008 about dota. How blink mobility makes the game play less diversity, how more ban is needed, there were even complains about tp and fortification which I had a fun time observing how Riot handle such for LoL.
as the state of the game right now, i think it gona take them quite a bit of time to rework most of the top tier champs concept if they even remotely heading toward that direction. We are talking about a new developer vision which others company COUGHBLIZZARDCOUGH has been failing to change since forever. But i certainly agree with most of the points you brought up Xeris-chair-stealer(oh yeah i remember ;-D)
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Multiphase bans or more bans wont happen because of SoloQ.
SoloQ is the number #1 ranked "competitive" mode for 95% of league players. Riot wants it to remain #1 and aims to keep it simplistic and accessible.
Looking at Dota2, there are more 5v5 gamemodes then LoL and captains mode is one of the least popular. This is something riot wants to avoid. You get blind pick or you get competitive draft just like the pro's and thats how they like it. (ranked OR unranked.)
Adding multiphase or more bans to draft makes things more complicated and less accessible to the masses, it becomes complex, confusing and offputting to many (which is somewhat backed-up by Dota2's captains popularity.) and this could have a direct effect on LoL's success. Everyone harps about how LoL is the casual game. it IS in the sense that the majority of casuals play it, for the reasons stated above, its simplistic and easy to understand at a basic level.
"Ban 3 good champs" "Pick 5 champs for each specific role" "Play"
That is the absolute core of ranked and unranked LoL draft. This is easy to understand and keeps the masses enjoying it. isnt it something like 80% of all ranked players are bronze? How many of them do you think truly take an interest in the depth league offers and would be able to comprehend multi-phase bans properly? By keeping 3 bans 5 picks riot allows EVERYONE to understand it and understand the game and relate effectively to the competitive scene.
What do i mean?
In a competitive LoL game: Zed, ahri, shen are banned. The masses response is "smart bans, those bitches be op."
In a competitive Dota game that shit is WAAAY deeper like others have stated. I played a little watched a little and i dont know what the fuck is going on in regards to picks / bans, always different, always strange. Not just the "OP" the "Popular" or a teams "best" - its a fucking whole other world of mindgames. It is CONFUSING.
So at the end of the day, we as serious competitive gamers suffer at the hands of our masses. The casuals.
League and riot will NEVER change to become less accessible to the masses, which is perfectly understandable but at the same time it really screws us over. SoloQ and draft are the masses main competitive outlet and way to understand competitive play, it just cant be complicated.
I honestly believe multiphase bans like Dotas are MUCH better even if i dont understand them much because of my lack of knowledge of the game. Just that much depth in team select is extremely good for the game and diversity of picks, like this OP said, but LoL is a game for the masses and we are a huge minority in regards to serious "competitive" players. "80%" of ranked players are bronze, even less play ranked and even less play draft. If they cant understand the competitive scene, riots esports marketing is absolutely pointless and popularity will fall. Popularity = money.
TL;DR - OP is right but Riot have a perfectly good reason for not introducing more pick/ban phases or more bans overall. Unfortunately
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Well then maybe in lower leagues bans can just be 5 at the start, but once you hit Gold or Platinum they become interwoven throughout the picking? I agree that simplicity should be king when getting started, but once people get to a higher league they'll want more complexity anyway...
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On October 08 2013 19:54 Tal wrote: Well then maybe in lower leagues bans can just be 5 at the start, but once you hit Gold or Platinum they become interwoven throughout the picking? I agree that simplicity should be king when getting started, but once people get to a higher league they'll want more complexity anyway...
Honestly, unless you are a competitive team playing for a spot in the LCS, you don't need interwoven bans. what is wrong with keeping how it is now for solo queue, and have interlacing bans for tournaments?
Please don't pretend that casuals are so retarded that this change would fool them into believing they are playing two completely different games.
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On October 08 2013 20:31 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 19:54 Tal wrote: Well then maybe in lower leagues bans can just be 5 at the start, but once you hit Gold or Platinum they become interwoven throughout the picking? I agree that simplicity should be king when getting started, but once people get to a higher league they'll want more complexity anyway... Honestly, unless you are a competitive team playing for a spot in the LCS, you don't need interwoven bans. what is wrong with keeping how it is now for solo queue, and have interlacing bans for tournaments? Please don't pretend that casuals are so retarded that this change would fool them into believing they are playing two completely different games. Those exist but they're too dumb to open streams in the first place so it should be fine.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I think you are trying too hard to find a common thread throughout the ADC's.
Ezreal and Vayne have flashes.
What? Ezreal has a blink, but Vayne most definitely does not have a Flash outside her summoner spell. She does have a tumble/condemn knockback, but that is not a blink. Vayne is picked because of her % max health true damage.
Likewise, for Support, of course you're going to have CC on your support. What's the point of a utility role that doesn't have any CC? Saying that they all have stuns is like saying all the ADCs have ranged attacks and all the junglers are good at clearing the jungle. You'll never see Master Yi support, and the game shouldn't try to make him viable as a support. And try to name me a jungler that DOESN'T have a gap-closer.
I also think you cherrypicked your data a little bit. What about Orianna, the third-most contested mid at worlds, or Gragas? They certainly are not assassins.
I think some champs are just flat out better. This isn't necessarily bad, but the main offenders are sooooooo far above similar champs that it's ridiculous. The classic example of recent times is Thresh. He is an abomination of design. Literally everything a Support would want. Initiates, CC galore, disengage, harass, gets stats without building items, shields, and the lantern. I can literally think of no draw backs (I'd love to hear some if I'm being naive). The only Support that seems to be able to oppose him is Sona, just because multi-target stuns are gold during a team fight. I mean if you want a competitive match and want to win, why play anything besides Thresh?
Thresh is a very strong support but not "an abomination of design". He has no sustain for his ally. He is much worse in a late-game teamfight than the other strong supports. His base armor values were nerfed very hard, but his kit requires him to go all-in like Leona. His hook is difficult to land and has punishingly long cooldowns if you miss.
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Riot has said that they won't increase the amount of bans because they don't like what it does to the draft phase (idk riot logic). Your second suggestion won't happen because riot will never create a different environment for the pros and the players. You're third suggestion is happening with the reworks that are happening now (xerath and heimerdinger in the next patch) which are going to take over making new champs. .
Just giveing you some insider info.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
I was rather surprised with the amount of picks. I thought it would be quite less.
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my pet idea for solving mobility creep that i'm 100% sure riot would never implement is to have slows reduce the range of mobility spells. currently there's no way to counterplay, say, an ezreal blink other than stunning him before it happens or gap closing to him and stunning him afterwards. same goes with kass blink, graves dash, etc. the only ways of interacting with these mobility spells is to either bring your own mobility spell(s) or hard cc, but preferably both and on as few characters as possible. ahri, for example, has cc and mobility in one character slot so she fits this requirement perfectly. vi works great as well, tons of cc, tons of gap closing all in one character slot. taric's fine but only provides one cc and no mobility. the idea is pretty clear, though: to play against mobility you need to bring cc and/or mobility yourself.
in each case the onus is on the blinking/dashing player to make the "play," if you want to be so generous as to call it that. or at least the play revolves around the blinker's ability to execute the blink uninhibited. to me, the way you simultaneously decrease the significance of mobility and increase the viable champion pool is by making more abilities capable of interacting with the mobility mechanic. if a 50% slow reduces ezreal's blink range by 50%, all of a sudden a whole new world of counterpicks opens up AND ezreal's mobility becomes substantially less of a flagrant advantage.
i dunno, if there were any chance of this actually happening i'd spend more time articulating why i think it's such a great idea, but it's never gonna happen.
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On October 08 2013 20:43 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 20:31 ItsFunToLose wrote:On October 08 2013 19:54 Tal wrote: Well then maybe in lower leagues bans can just be 5 at the start, but once you hit Gold or Platinum they become interwoven throughout the picking? I agree that simplicity should be king when getting started, but once people get to a higher league they'll want more complexity anyway... Honestly, unless you are a competitive team playing for a spot in the LCS, you don't need interwoven bans. what is wrong with keeping how it is now for solo queue, and have interlacing bans for tournaments? Please don't pretend that casuals are so retarded that this change would fool them into believing they are playing two completely different games. Those exist but they're too dumb to open streams in the first place so it should be fine.
Its not about them thinking they're playing two completely different games. Its about people knowing that the competitive options available to them are completely different to whats played at the top level and in tournaments. It 100% puts them off, slightly or completely. Its also not about people needing extra phases/bans/whatever or not at their level of play.
Having the same as what you watch is just simply what MUST be done, if you play in a football league you play with 11 men not 9 or without a ball for the same reasons (yes yes 5-a-side basically comparable to blind-pick or 3v3). Having things simple and understandable for everyone is also a must for such a popular game played by so many people. Not everyone plays football competitively but alot play casually and all the rules are easy to understand, if you want to play a "proper" match like those you watch, you can, because its easy to understand and to play.
If its not the same people will have an issue with it, issues create rifts. This particular one would put people off from even bothering to play competitively, watch competitively or spend the monies at all. You think its stupid, so do i but it doesnt change that this is what would happen.
Anything that could slightly put off a portion of their playerbase is BAD for riot. Its that simple, differences between what people are playing and what the top teams they watch are? Thats a problem. Like i said earlier, you dont play football without a ball.
So you're between a rock and a hard place, seperate modes for top teams and soloQ (even differences between tiers like suggested) creates a rift. Having a complicated pick/ban phase creates a rift.
So do you pick one of those things or just keep it the same. The same way the majority of their playerbase (and i mean big majority here.) is happy and content spending their money on, supporting and playing.
Its a no-brainer for riot really and i do agree its sad that we wont see changes because of this but its a harsh truth. At the end of the day 30 million people play league and the majority want simplicity.
Any changes like this run huge risks of losing them potential income, risks that arent worth taking because that potential is 100% safe in its current format. The casuals are happy and the competitives wont leave because we have good support for the scene and a good game as it is.
+ Show Spoiler +Please be aware i am not advocating that league is an easy game, dota is better / more complicated or anything of the sort. Just that their pick/bans are simple to understand and comprehend for the masses, along with their game modes. Any changes to it would potentially devastating for accessibility and a number of factors, all effecting one simple thing: Their income.
LEAGUE FTW.
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On October 08 2013 22:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:I think you are trying too hard to find a common thread throughout the ADC's. What? Ezreal has a blink, but Vayne most definitely does not have a Flash outside her summoner spell. She does have a tumble/condemn knockback, but that is not a blink. Vayne is picked because of her % max health true damage. Likewise, for Support, of course you're going to have CC on your support. What's the point of a utility role that doesn't have any CC? Saying that they all have stuns is like saying all the ADCs have ranged attacks and all the junglers are good at clearing the jungle. You'll never see Master Yi support, and the game shouldn't try to make him viable as a support. And try to name me a jungler that DOESN'T have a gap-closer. I also think you cherrypicked your data a little bit. What about Orianna, the third-most contested mid at worlds, or Gragas? They certainly are not assassins. Show nested quote +I think some champs are just flat out better. This isn't necessarily bad, but the main offenders are sooooooo far above similar champs that it's ridiculous. The classic example of recent times is Thresh. He is an abomination of design. Literally everything a Support would want. Initiates, CC galore, disengage, harass, gets stats without building items, shields, and the lantern. I can literally think of no draw backs (I'd love to hear some if I'm being naive). The only Support that seems to be able to oppose him is Sona, just because multi-target stuns are gold during a team fight. I mean if you want a competitive match and want to win, why play anything besides Thresh? Thresh is a very strong support but not "an abomination of design". He has no sustain for his ally. He is much worse in a late-game teamfight than the other strong supports. His base armor values were nerfed very hard, but his kit requires him to go all-in like Leona. His hook is difficult to land and has punishingly long cooldowns if you miss.
Gragas has a mobility skill and the ability to 100-0 most champions in the game if slightly fed (and he's super easy to farm on at all stages of the game compared to Ahri/Fizz), I'd qualify him as at least a pseudo-assassin.
Thresh has the longest time of any hero (bar Blitzcrank) where he can't do anything if he misses his skills. If he tries to Q/E someone and misses, you have ~10 seconds to go all in on them with a useless support, and he still won't have his hook for longer. His all-in is weaker than Leona and his pull isn't as good as Blitzcrank's.
Personally, I think 1 extra ban on both sides along with balance changes to guys like Renekton, Zac, Ahri, Fizz, and Zed are in order. The first 2 do way too much damage/sustain for how tanky they are naturally, the last 3 have burst combos that can't be effectively dealt with by over 2/3 of the heroes in the game. I think it's hard to say the compositions as a whole are imbalanced since they revolve around catching people out of position which is as much skill on their part as it is a mistake on the other team's part. People have been getting better at playing against them, but even so I think there need to be a few tweaks here and there.
I think the bot lane is in a really good place, though, I like the dynamics right now.
As for the jungle: Maokai isn't seen because he has no good sustained damage compared to Zac and Vi, both of whom do the CC thing just as well or better. Since no one is playing dedicated AoE comps anymore, his ult isn't such a big deal.
Edit: 1 other thing: I think the general Mpen buff/MR nerf from last season might have been a bit of a mistake, or at least an over-compensation for an issue that wasn't really a huge issue. The removal of FoN and changes to the other MR items were enough. With the next season changes, one should allow damage dealers to build items enough to protect them from at least 2/3 of an assassin's combo (i.e. surviving Ahri DFG/E/ult/W but misses her Q..that doesn't always happen even with a GA or other MR item).
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Just some side notes: Nunu was played only as a support in 2012, as his jungle was considered very bad. Mundo wasn't played top, but as jungle.
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but mobility is FUN and other 'interesting' mechanics are actually ANTIFUN
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And the holy trinity was ez corki graves not ez corki kogmaw
/ocd
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