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On October 09 2013 17:01 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 16:58 wei2coolman wrote: Uh. Jax was still played occasionally in ogn, before triforce got changed. I still think we would have seen jax. Corki probably not. In OGN Champions Summer, Jax was picked 7 times, banned twice, with a 2-5 win rate out of 80 games played. I think we can safely say that Jax was not a staple or solid pick in OGN prior to Triforce change. 9 interactions out of 80 games isn't half bad. Chances are we'd prolly see it at least once or twice in worlds.
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On October 09 2013 17:06 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 17:01 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 09 2013 16:58 wei2coolman wrote: Uh. Jax was still played occasionally in ogn, before triforce got changed. I still think we would have seen jax. Corki probably not. In OGN Champions Summer, Jax was picked 7 times, banned twice, with a 2-5 win rate out of 80 games played. I think we can safely say that Jax was not a staple or solid pick in OGN prior to Triforce change. 9 interactions out of 80 games isn't half bad. Chances are we'd prolly see it at least once or twice in worlds. I edited my post. None of the KR teams that made it to Worlds actually picked Jax during OGN Champions Summer. It's doubtful they would've began to play Jax; especially since in my hypothetical, Zac would not have been nerfed as hard (Triforce patch was same patch as the final Zac nerf iirc, which was the proverbial nail in the coffin). Still, without Triforce change, yea it's possible Jax might've been pick/banned once or twice, but that's a far cry from Jax's dominant performance at Worlds.
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Jax dominated at worlds? Wasn't it just for finals that he "dominated" and mostly because Godlike didn't have an answer?
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On October 09 2013 17:12 Itsmedudeman wrote: Jax dominated at worlds? Wasn't it just for finals that he "dominated" and mostly because Godlike didn't have an answer? He was contested pick in njs vs skt.
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Royal also used it to great effect vs fnatic
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Jax was underplayed in most of group stages. But once we got into bracket, teams quickly caught on to the power of Jax and he was pretty dominant past that. When I say dominant, I don't necessarily mean super high winrate - I'm more referring to high pick/ban rate with a respectable win rate. I consider Corki pretty dominant, but Corki had a sub 50% winrate.
Jax was pick/banned 14 times, 13 of which were in bracket stage games. There were 23 games in the bracket stage. That's over half of bracket stage games that saw Jax. The C9 v. Fnatic games had 0 Jax showings, while SKT didn't touch Jax until after they played NJBS and saw how strong Jax was.
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Jax had far, far less games to show it and much of that could have been due to player matchups more than the champion matchups. Renekton is a great answer to jax and saying that "he gets banned so that makes jax OP" is kind of silly as you could also just ban jax if they used a ban for renekton...
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On October 09 2013 17:28 Itsmedudeman wrote: Jax had far, far less games to show it and much of that could have been due to player matchups more than the champion matchups. Renekton is a great answer to jax and saying that "he gets banned so that makes jax OP" is kind of silly as you could also just ban jax if they used a ban for renekton... Difference is that Renekton had been a staple pick for a long time prior to Worlds. China was picking him up regularly and he saw a decent amount of play in the other regions, as well. Renekton was always a solid 1v2 laner that can win a lot of 1v1 lanes if needed.
Jax was virtually unseen prior to Triforce change. I'm not asserting that Jax is OP. I'm just saying that Triforce change was the reason why he saw play at Worlds and the Triforce change was significant enough that Jax was a dominating factor at Worlds. Being seen in over half of the bracket stage games with a 70% winrate is nothing to scoff at.
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Yea, we definitely need to see more time to determine if Jax is OP, particularly with TF changes. However, he certainly evolved into a great pick because of they way teams tunneled on Renketon/Shen.
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Can anyone explain why interwoven bans for high profile tournaments suddenly means I am playing a different game than they are if soloqueue does not use the same format? Where does the argument against interwoven bans even come from? It's gold-medal-winning mental gymnastics. it's painfully delusional or willfully ignorant to assume that less people will watch the world finals because their fucking pick ban phase is ever so slightly different from the one I use in solo queue.
difference pick/ban phase matters for solo queue: 0% difference pick/ban phase matters for pros: x%; x>0 difference interwoven pick/ban phase matters for pros y%; y>x
You don't have to add time to solo queue P/B phase by giving them the same format. the current one works just fine. Because it doesn't matter at all. But there's literally no downside at all to giving pros more strategic options.
How many people even watch the pick/ban phase? I'm willing to bet that given the choice between two links, one to the start of pick ban phase and one to the start of the game, 3 out of 4 viewers are clicking to just watch the game start. Don't argue it's more confusing. It doesn't. fucking. matter.
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Honestly, I think the way solo q bans work now should stay that way. Maybe add a couple more bans, but banning for solo q is pretty straightforward - ban the fotm OP champs. It's faster, efficient, and easier for people to play. However, I think ranked 5's should mirror competitive play (including pick/ban) as closely as possible. The whole point of the Challenger ladder is to breed potential competitive players and teams, after all.
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Bans in solo q are pretty dumb in the first place and only act as a way for people to never learn how to deal with certain champs into they get a change.
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How about if the last picks for both teams will be picked blindly?
3 bans for both teams Then pick phase 1-2 2-1 1-1 and then both teams blind pick their last champions
Or maybe they can move the ban phase in the middle of the pick phase?
Pick Order 1-1-1-1 or 1-2-1 Then each team will ban 3 champions And then pick phase resumes 1-2-2-1
Just throwing out some wild ideas
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I'd love to see a "dregs" best-of-7 showmatch, where every pick and every ban must be unique from all previous picks and bans. You'd be eliminating 16 champions per game and really testing players' diversity by the end of the match.
You could even balance things out by allowing the loser of each game to re-pick one champion that was either picked or banned in the previous game.
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On October 09 2013 18:27 ItsFunToLose wrote: Can anyone explain why interwoven bans for high profile tournaments suddenly means I am playing a different game than they are if soloqueue does not use the same format? Where does the argument against interwoven bans even come from? It's gold-medal-winning mental gymnastics. it's painfully delusional or willfully ignorant to assume that less people will watch the world finals because their fucking pick ban phase is ever so slightly different from the one I use in solo queue.
difference pick/ban phase matters for solo queue: 0% difference pick/ban phase matters for pros: x%; x>0 difference interwoven pick/ban phase matters for pros y%; y>x
You don't have to add time to solo queue P/B phase by giving them the same format. the current one works just fine. Because it doesn't matter at all. But there's literally no downside at all to giving pros more strategic options.
How many people even watch the pick/ban phase? I'm willing to bet that given the choice between two links, one to the start of pick ban phase and one to the start of the game, 3 out of 4 viewers are clicking to just watch the game start. Don't argue it's more confusing. It doesn't. fucking. matter. It does matter. Lets work this out theoretically. Assuming LoL has Dota Style bans, you'll see a lot more "op'd" sneek through the early champ select. So things do get snuck through. Because only 2 bans for each team early on, the first champ picked is going to be very strong.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 09 2013 19:57 Numy wrote: Bans in solo q are pretty dumb in the first place and only act as a way for people to never learn how to deal with certain champs into they get a change. It's also a safety net for when Riot fucks up balance and there's a single champion that's egregiously out of line.
This only happens because Riot releases champs directly into the draft mode hero pool, so there's no check on the possibility of a newly released/remade hero just being utter bullshit day 1.
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I'm still surprised Jax basically eclipsed Trynd as the guaranteed pick. Just shows how much the ~1 sec of stun is valued.
I really think the best way to 'balance' j4 is to make it so the banner does not give vision. Maybe make it only grant vision if it strikes a champion. Doesn't change his strength at all but limits his control of positioning.
They should give Kass the Leblanc treatment and just baseline the ultimate. Longer CD, no increased dmg each use, Make it grant/count as two spells for the sake of his W. Maybe we would see a lack of tear every game.
I think we will see an Anivia resurgence soon, possibly Ziggs as well. Next season I'm sure they will look at mobility, and then zone control will be at a premium.
As far as supports go in regards to OP, I don't think supports are that stale. Annie, Leblanc, just to name a couple are two that are being utilized well.
I think all of the 'poke' champions are in a good place. Only thing I would change is to give them a slight bit more of tankiness(increased armor/mr gain per level) rather than buffing them in any other aspect.
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On October 10 2013 01:27 Agh wrote: I'm still surprised Jax basically eclipsed Trynd as the guaranteed pick. Just shows how much the ~1 sec of stun is valued.
I really think the best way to 'balance' j4 is to make it so the banner does not give vision. Maybe make it only grant vision if it strikes a champion. Doesn't change his strength at all but limits his control of positioning.
They should give Kass the Leblanc treatment and just baseline the ultimate. Longer CD, no increased dmg each use, Make it grant/count as two spells for the sake of his W. Maybe we would see a lack of tear every game.
I think we will see an Anivia resurgence soon, possibly Ziggs as well. Next season I'm sure they will look at mobility, and then zone control will be at a premium.
As far as supports go in regards to OP, I don't think supports are that stale. Annie, Leblanc, just to name a couple are two that are being utilized well.
I think all of the 'poke' champions are in a good place. Only thing I would change is to give them a slight bit more of tankiness(increased armor/mr gain per level) rather than buffing them in any other aspect. Problem with Tryn is that he needs quite a decent amount of farm to really get going. He's also really really weak to exhaust - same reason why Wukong isn't played. Exhaust them and they're a non-factor. Tryn also is pretty kite-able since he has no cc other than a slow.
I really don't get why Riot thinks Kassadin is a problem. Outside of Fnatic and xPeke being Fnatic and xPeke, Kassadin has never been a staple for a long period of time nor has he really ever dominating the scene, especially after his Q range nerf. To my knowledge, Fnatic is virtually the only team in which Kassadin is a not a non-factor. This is like Riot saying they want to nerf Anivia because Froggen is too strong.
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On October 10 2013 05:44 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 01:27 Agh wrote: I'm still surprised Jax basically eclipsed Trynd as the guaranteed pick. Just shows how much the ~1 sec of stun is valued.
I really think the best way to 'balance' j4 is to make it so the banner does not give vision. Maybe make it only grant vision if it strikes a champion. Doesn't change his strength at all but limits his control of positioning.
They should give Kass the Leblanc treatment and just baseline the ultimate. Longer CD, no increased dmg each use, Make it grant/count as two spells for the sake of his W. Maybe we would see a lack of tear every game.
I think we will see an Anivia resurgence soon, possibly Ziggs as well. Next season I'm sure they will look at mobility, and then zone control will be at a premium.
As far as supports go in regards to OP, I don't think supports are that stale. Annie, Leblanc, just to name a couple are two that are being utilized well.
I think all of the 'poke' champions are in a good place. Only thing I would change is to give them a slight bit more of tankiness(increased armor/mr gain per level) rather than buffing them in any other aspect. Problem with Tryn is that he needs quite a decent amount of farm to really get going. He's also really really weak to exhaust - same reason why Wukong isn't played. Exhaust them and they're a non-factor. Tryn also is pretty kite-able since he has no cc other than a slow. I really don't get why Riot thinks Kassadin is a problem. Outside of Fnatic and xPeke being Fnatic and xPeke, Kassadin has never been a staple for a long period of time nor has he really ever dominating the scene, especially after his Q range nerf. To my knowledge, Fnatic is virtually the only team in which Kassadin is a not a non-factor. This is like Riot saying they want to nerf Anivia because Froggen is too strong.
Its because people are playing Kassadin again in SoloQ and his kit is inherently toxic. You have to be good at the game to play against him and we can't have that happening.
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United States47024 Posts
TBH any champ balance changes are going to be rendered meaningless by S4's massive systemic changes.
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