People are actually satisfied by this? 1. They don't understand how radius works... prepare for some cringeworthy WM hits. Seriously, fuck all the Widow Mine back and forth, get the fucking Tanks/BCs/lategame on level! 2. Whatever. Less zergling overkill. 3. Does almost nothing for TvP in all seriousness.
I would much rather see the following changes to the widow mine than a radius increase:
1) Reduce widow mine supply to 1 2) Reduce widow mine build/reload time to 25 seconds 3) Add a hold fire option to the widow mine 4) Allow widow to target but not reveal cloaked units, like brood war spider mines.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
There are a few that were very recently post-patch, but there aren't many. It took a very short amount of time for protoss players to abandon templar play before colossus, it wasn't working for them at all in practice.
Yeah but the problem with that is, it doesn't tell us if Templar is actually underpowered or simply balanced. If Colossus is OP and Templar is "just right," mediocre Protoss players will start losing a lot of their Templar games and perceive Templar openings to be relatively underpowered. That doesn't mean they're actually underpowered. What could be happening is that Terran is finally performing at a 1/1/1 ratio which would lead to Terran re-filling the ladder and tournaments, which is what we ultimately want. Let's say Crank goes Templar against Innovation and loses a game he wouldn't have lost 2 months ago, that doesn't mean Templar is terrible, it could just mean Crank never had any right to beat Innovation period.
In this case, it would be in our best interests to nerf Colo harder than Templar, so that Templar, weak as it is, still seems the superior option.
I haven't seen any of these games, and the one between Ryung and Sjaak isn't available anywhere that I can see, so I can't begin to guess if Templar is actually underpowered or just the first fair Protoss lategame since they learned to survive 1/1/1 (by getting it nerfed).
We had players like Rain losing to random terrans that he is much better than while going templar openings. Every korean toss has abandoned templar openings, which they had previously MUCH preferred. Players regularly die to scv all-ins while going colossus, it took a player like herO to show a metagame move that held just fine against the scv pull, but was a gamble because it abandoned all later tech and would have died hard to a heavier viking marine/marauder push a minute or two later.
SCV all-ins are stupid. If I had my way, they wouldn't exist.
Also they wouldn't need to exist, because Terrans would feel comfortable going up against late-game Protoss armies.
SCV all-ins beating Colossus openings doesn't mean Colossus is balanced. Archon toilet beat plenty of BL/Infestor compositions... and Archon toilet was still stupid, and BL/Infestor was still imbalanced.
Part of the problem is WM health and Protoss detection ability. WM survive full storm hit(90hp vs 80 dmg storm) and can kill an observer if terran just scans over a minefield(and moves fast). So you have problems with detection, you need a stupid building for detection and if you think about it - when you have robo, you need more observers, why don't go colossus which is boring, stupid as hell, but can reliably kill a widow mine while the observer is with the army and safer. Also the problem is scan + vikings, but that's like specialized build and no pro does it, at least I cannot remember this(basically with the absence of other flying units - yup, colossus - the observer is hit much easier to kill).
So - that's the problem, with templar opening you cannot go for oracle detection(which is farer AFAIK), because gas cost. But you cannot lower gas cost of an Oracle(though I can see a gas upgrade to make an Oracle a killer, so you can lower the gas cost and use it as a cheap detection while it cannot kill anything, because the beam wasn't researched). I think part of the solution can be upgrade of observer with better detection radius(not vision!), but I expect this in robo bay and since you need robo bay to have templar opening viable, why not go colossus - again.
The most viable solution as a templar opening - cannon outposts. But you need 500 - 600 minerals to secure a post on a map which is killed in a few seconds by a small amount of bio with healing dropship, in a midgame this is heavy nonono...
I think that maybe the following would be best changes ATM:
1 - Reduce Factory cost from 150/100 to 150/75 2 - Reduce Armory cost from 150/100 to 100/50 (or even 100//75 if it proves to be much) 3 - Reduce Tempest base damage for 5 - i.e. - 30 instead of 35 4 - Reduce Tempest bonus vs Massive Air from +50 to +25 and +15 vs Shields or sth (I know that the latter one will affect PvP greatly, Tempests doing 10 more damage, that damage bonus would appeal only vs Shields, once those're depleted - Tempest will do 5 less damage overall, ofc. - poor Archon..)
However - here's the impact:
1 - People could play mech (or bio-mech better) if they want cause the gas investments aren't that high anymore 2 - Vikings will instead of 3-shotted get 4 or even 5 shotted (depending on upgrades) from Tempests 3 - Tempest base damage vs massive air will be 55 instead of 80 = much more versatile play - BCs will tank 10 shots or even 11 with better upgrades (which in air vs air battles it's so "natural" for Terran to be ahead in ups cause Protoss needs to invest in the ups if using air - Double) 4 - BroodLords will be 4-shotted instead of 3 (or 5, lol, missed a 5HP extra from BLords, but - something could hit those for 5hp remainder, lol), regardless - my point is - we might see in ZvP those 5 - Colossi will be 6-shotted instead of 5, but 5 shots would leave Colossi on 10HP, or so.. (ofc. the greatest change will be the vs Archon PvP which will take 45 Damage from Tempests instead of 35, but that might still not be that bad cause Stalkers could be made vs Tempests too TBH)
OH, and IDK about this one, but Terran might be too strong vs Zerg with those cost reductions so the Transformation Servos upg. requirement should get back in the game again.. (this time Terran will have had to have invested less gas for 75 though)
And TvT - (well it's a TvT, ppl could do the very same thing they do now only with a couple of more mines peppered here & there , should not change the matchup on the long run IMO)
Those changes are like the "slight" ones (if we wanted to make mech work, would need to be much more radical)
On July 10 2014 14:05 Loccstana wrote: I would much rather see the following changes to the widow mine than a radius increase:
1) Reduce widow mine supply to 1 2) Reduce widow mine build/reload time to 25 seconds 3) Add a hold fire option to the widow mine 4) Allow widow to target but not reveal cloaked units, like brood war spider mines.
Absolutely agree with #3 and the rest makes sense. I hope blizzard actually does something aggressive like make widow mines 0 supply because late late game situations are not fun for a terran. Protoss/zerg death balls are not fun to deal with. Every race should have a sort of 0 supply unit that helps them consolidate advantages with big economic leads at max supply. I really miss the brood war days of mine fields that let terrans actually control space without worrying about their army in perfect formation to deal with big pushes/rushes. Buffed tanks is still something that should be considered as well. Although I feel perfect terran macro sort of solves a lot balance issues at the top end today, I feel the game should reward terran micro/mechanics/tactical players just as much. I'd rather see a few well placed mines/tanks/turrets be adequate defense for ling/muta counters rather than the usual base trade scenario because holding anything without a main army is impossible. Turrets do not stop mutas anymore. Just some ranting but I hope Blizzard considers more fundamental gameplay changes for Terran.
On July 10 2014 14:05 Loccstana wrote: I would much rather see the following changes to the widow mine than a radius increase:
1) Reduce widow mine supply to 1 2) Reduce widow mine build/reload time to 25 seconds 3) Add a hold fire option to the widow mine 4) Allow widow to target but not reveal cloaked units, like brood war spider mines.
Absolutely agree with #3 and the rest makes sense. I hope blizzard actually does something aggressive like make widow mines 0 supply because late late game situations are not fun for a terran. Protoss/zerg death balls are not fun to deal with. Every race should have a sort of 0 supply unit that helps them consolidate advantages with big economic leads at max supply. I really miss the brood war days of mine fields that let terrans actually control space without worrying about their army in perfect formation to deal with big pushes/rushes. Buffed tanks is still something that should be considered as well. Although I feel perfect terran macro sort of solves a lot balance issues at the top end today, I feel the game should reward terran micro/mechanics/tactical players just as much. I'd rather see a few well placed mines/tanks/turrets be adequate defense for ling/muta counters rather than the usual base trade scenario because holding anything without a main army is impossible. Turrets do not stop mutas anymore. Just some ranting but I hope Blizzard considers more fundamental gameplay changes for Terran.
hold fire on mines would remove any counterplay to mines ( that is baiting shots before the engagement), and 0 supply mines would make it far too easy to turtle it seems that the pople who want mech all just want bw unbreakable seige lines into unstoppable maxed out moveout back ...
A big help would be to get rid of friendly fire from tanks and widow mines. No other splash damage has it. Bar storm, which is a castable spell which you have control over. With this widow mine buff. I can see zergs using the old tactic of rushing one or to zerglings into the bio force to set of the mine. Except more bio will die. Nerfing splash damage will buff the tank and the mine.
On July 10 2014 06:22 submarine wrote: Concerning Templar openings vs Widowmines:
What if they reduced the health of Mines from 90 to something under 80? -Sniping mines before they borrow would be a little bit easier -HTs would be a soft counter to widowmines even without detection, because they could use 1 storm to clear mines
I think this should be enough to make HT openings viable again.
Protoss doesn't struggle in PvT at all so that would just be pointless. The matchup will just be more boring. I mean it would kind of work, but it's not something that is going to happen any time soon.
I agree completely about Templar openings being much more entertaining. My question is: are they really unviable right now? Or are they simply less reliable than Colossus openings? Because those aren't the same thing. PvT lategame (Colossus) was Protoss favored at the end of WOL, it's only gotten more so in HOTS.
What if we make Colo opening even less viable than Templar will be with new WM? (I don't know how yet, I'm just testing the waters.) Templar opening will be less godly than it was 3 months ago, that's a plus, but Protoss will still use it (because lack of clearly superior alternative).
Obviously giving Terrans more options is preferable to taking options away from Protoss, but I don't think Blizzard sees it that way.
They're pretty non-viable right now, yeah. Bio/mine pushes make the zealots that accompany them pretty worthless. Even if you split your zealots perfectly, it's still efficient for terran to kill only 1 zealot with a mine at the engagement. Even if you land a couple storms, it doesn't matter because no other units are left alive to finish off the weakened bio.
Would you happen to know of any Korean games where this happened? I'd love to see how it plays out, but I haven't come across any post-patch.
There are a few that were very recently post-patch, but there aren't many. It took a very short amount of time for protoss players to abandon templar play before colossus, it wasn't working for them at all in practice.
Yeah but the problem with that is, it doesn't tell us if Templar is actually underpowered or simply balanced. If Colossus is OP and Templar is "just right," mediocre Protoss players will start losing a lot of their Templar games and perceive Templar openings to be relatively underpowered. That doesn't mean they're actually underpowered. What could be happening is that Terran is finally performing at a 1/1/1 ratio which would lead to Terran re-filling the ladder and tournaments, which is what we ultimately want. Let's say Crank goes Templar against Innovation and loses a game he wouldn't have lost 2 months ago, that doesn't mean Templar is terrible, it could just mean Crank never had any right to beat Innovation period.
In this case, it would be in our best interests to nerf Colo harder than Templar, so that Templar, weak as it is, still seems the superior option.
I haven't seen any of these games, and the one between Ryung and Sjaak isn't available anywhere that I can see, so I can't begin to guess if Templar is actually underpowered or just the first fair Protoss lategame since they learned to survive 1/1/1 (by getting it nerfed).
We had players like Rain losing to random terrans that he is much better than while going templar openings.
Every korean toss has abandoned templar openings, which they had previously MUCH preferred.
Of course since they were completely broken after Council openings.
Yes they're much rarer now, but they still appear from time to time:
Oh, perhaps this is the "random Terran" you were talking about:
(Yes Rain loses, but not because of Mines.)
Templar openings were abandoned not because Mines made them completely unviable, but because blink colo dual forge is simultaneously easier and stronger. Why would you take risks when you have an unbreakable opening? Templar openings give room for Terran to play and multitask; blink colo locks everything.
Players regularly die to scv all-ins while going colossus, it took a player like herO to show a metagame move that held just fine against the scv pull, but was a gamble because it abandoned all later tech and would have died hard to a heavier viking marine/marauder push a minute or two later.
Nope, herO could perfectly defend a max SCV pull too with what he does...
I have a question about the Thor's AA weapon first. There are some king of pripriority? if for example there a ling+overlord attack the thor will attack the overlord first??
Templar openings were abandoned not because Mines made them completely unviable, but because blink colo dual forge is simultaneously easier and stronger. Why would you take risks when you have an unbreakable opening? Templar openings give room for Terran to play and multitask; blink colo locks everything.
Sorry but this is cherry-picking. You can also go back in time and find some games where the robo-player losses to scv-pulls and then come to the conclusion that Collosus-openings are unviable (through the same cherrypicking). Just after the Widow Mine buff, Innovation argued that he thought the matchup looked very good for terrran as the Widow Mine-buff changed the meta to more Collosus-openings. But over time, protoss players learned to open Collosus without dying to scv-pulls and it obviously became protoss favored, but prior to the Widow Mine I don't believe the Collosus opening was considered more "safe". And when ever protoss player in the world say they do not like templar openings anymore due to the Widow Mine and that the facts actually do support this (the meta was changed before and after the Mine-nerf), you cannot just put up a couple of VODs where the templar player losses in order to support your theory that goes against what everyone else says.
On July 10 2014 17:50 SuperHofmann wrote: I have a question about the Thor's AA weapon first. There are some king of pripriority? if for example there a ling+overlord attack the thor will attack the overlord first??
Hmm, don't know about thor & ovies, but colossus tends to attack buildings because nothing is attacking it... once something start shooting at colossus and it is able to return fire, it returns the fire.
@dwf: you are right that the newer colossus builds are hard as hell to break, but so are defensive templar openings, especially if the Protoss plays smart and gets a warp prism out; both sides have room to outplay and outmultitask each other really.
I agree that they are still viable to a certain extent, but if this buff also goes through, they will arguably die outright, which again, is bad for the matchup exclusively from a spectator's persective. Obviously there are other priorities for the balance team right now (and even they dont seem to guess which xD); i just wish they'd kill off colossi openings instead of templar, if they decided to limit the number of PvT builds.
Templar openings were abandoned not because Mines made them completely unviable, but because blink colo dual forge is simultaneously easier and stronger. Why would you take risks when you have an unbreakable opening? Templar openings give room for Terran to play and multitask; blink colo locks everything.
Sorry but this is cherry-picking. You can also go back in time and find some games where the robo-player losses to scv-pulls and then come to the conclusion that Collosus-openings are unviable (through the same cherrypicking). Just after the Widow Mine buff, Innovation argued that he thought the matchup looked very good for terrran as the Widow Mine-buff changed the meta to more Collosus-openings. But over time, protoss players learned to open Collosus without dying to scv-pulls and it obviously became protoss favored, but prior to the Widow Mine I don't believe the Collosus opening was considered more "safe". And when ever protoss player in the world say they do not like templar openings anymore due to the Widow Mine and that the facts actually do support this (the meta was changed before and after the Mine-nerf), you cannot just put up a couple of VODs where the templar player losses in order to support your theory that goes against what everyone else says.
Read my post again and you will realize "my theory" precisely explains "what everyone else says". The only difference is my conclusion is "?" rather than "non-viable," because there is still some Templar play (hence VODs as examples), unlike for instance something like mech TvP that is never seen.
Templar openings were abandoned not because Mines made them completely unviable, but because blink colo dual forge is simultaneously easier and stronger. Why would you take risks when you have an unbreakable opening? Templar openings give room for Terran to play and multitask; blink colo locks everything.
Sorry but this is cherry-picking. You can also go back in time and find some games where the robo-player losses to scv-pulls and then come to the conclusion that Collosus-openings are unviable (through the same cherrypicking). Just after the Widow Mine buff, Innovation argued that he thought the matchup looked very good for terrran as the Widow Mine-buff changed the meta to more Collosus-openings. But over time, protoss players learned to open Collosus without dying to scv-pulls and it obviously became protoss favored, but prior to the Widow Mine I don't believe the Collosus opening was considered more "safe". And when ever protoss player in the world say they do not like templar openings anymore due to the Widow Mine and that the facts actually do support this (the meta was changed before and after the Mine-nerf), you cannot just put up a couple of VODs where the templar player losses in order to support your theory that goes against what everyone else says.
Read my post again and you will realize "my theory" precisely explains "what everyone else says". The only difference is my conclusion is "?" rather than "non-viable," because there is still some Templar play (hence VODs as examples), unlike for instance something like mech TvP that is never seen.
These templar builds are now used as a surprise IMO. It's like StarDust's play. Everyone expects him do some cheese and then he plays or games without any ;] It would be much better if the Colossus build was a surprise build, templar openings are IMO much better to watch.
On July 10 2014 18:02 Teoita wrote: @dwf: you are right that the newer colossus builds are hard as hell to break, but so are defensive templar openings, especially if the Protoss plays smart and gets a warp prism out; both sides have room to outplay and outmultitask each other really.
I agree that they are still viable to a certain extent, but if this buff also goes through, they will arguably die outright, which again, is bad for the matchup exclusively from a spectator's persective. Obviously there are other priorities for the balance team right now (and even they dont seem to guess which xD); i just wish they'd kill off colossi openings instead of templar, if they decided to limit the number of PvT builds.
I totally agree, I also would rather watch templar opening than colo based. The mine buff went as I feared, right now almost no one plays chargelot/storm, even sOs
Mine change won't change the fact that the Widow Mine is an all or nothing kind of unit. Good Z players can still snipe them with mutas before a shot is fired, etc. While this will increase their power against 1-a deathballs, it'll also make mine drops even more aggravating.
Time Warp change is meh. At the end of 15 seconds everything in time warp should be dead or moved away, right? I think it's overcharge that needs to be tuned down. PvP was moving past 1base play for the most part even in WoL: PvP will still be okay with a shorter overcharge.
Thor change: meh, okay. Maybe this will help, maybe not.
On July 09 2014 03:44 LingBlingBling wrote: Why is crying about "it will break pvp" for any suggested nerf to Protoss? This has been their argument since WOL. Changing a few things to the MSC won't break pvp......TVP is need of a dire change.
Warp in takes away defenders advantage so in PvP the Msc helps stop the 4gate vs 4gate scenario every game. The duration of the Photon Overcharge helps defend a cycle of warp-ins and stablizes the matchup so it can be macro-orientated.
It is a horribly designed bandaid solution though.
Maybe you can't nerf it defensively, but offensively you could give the MSC a nerf. I'd propose slowing the MSC down to the old Overlord speed (around 0.88) and adding a MSC speed upgrade to the Cybernetics Core at 50/50/110. It would delay any straight up MSC attack on the mineral line by quite a bit and by putting the upgrade at the Cybernetics Core you cannot have Warp Gate and MSC Speed at the same time early on, weakening a Blink all-in. It wouldn't weaken any defensive play with the MSC as you can still park it between the main and the natural to cast Photon Overcharge.
This is a very creative idea, and sounds absolutely amazing for the game. I love this solution.
Imagine a blink all in where the Terran could actually snipe the slower moving MSC. And, at the same time, in PvP the slower moving MSC would suffice fine for Photon Overcharge defenses.
Well done sir. I hope enough people quote this so that it gets into the hands of DK.
On July 09 2014 11:24 AlaxWayLaxed wrote: So all this patch will do is make bio mine the choice of build again for terran players eliminating the need to try new styles like biomech variations. TvT will revert back to mine drop openings in every game and the bio mine style in TvP will be buffed. Terran will be buffed at the cost of spectator value, Terran match ups which are often said to be the most interesting to watch due it's fast pace and diversity will take a hit here as blizzard is buffing one particular style to the point where all others are not worth playing due to being so inferior to the staple biomine style that the blizz team is tunnel visioned into patching over and over again.
This is the kind of idiocy that makes me want to throw up when I get on these forums.
It really sounds like it might be trolling, but I don't think it is..not to pick on the individual who made this specific post but in general I keep seeing this, saw it b4 the first mine nerf and wanted to puke then and I really do think there are people who genuinely think like this.
We went from 1 viable unit comp (balanced viable unit comp that put you on even footing) - to this kind of nonsense being spewed all over TL about "stale meta stale meta" to mine nerf and ZERO viable unit comps that put you on even footing.
Lo and behold broken game - imbalance.
Now they are trying to fix it and we still want to bitch (even tho I am still really confused as to why they don't just go back to the old mine instead of adding an untested variable we have no data for) because "Now there will only be 1 comp thats used!! I love tanks!! I can't micro!! Pls give Terran a unit comp that's easy to play!" Do you even play Terran? I can't possibly believe you do.. you must play a different race if you would bitch because mines are getting buffed and Terran might now actually have ONE viable unit composition that can trade cost effectively with zerg again.
You can't go from ZERO viable compositions to 10 with a patch. That will take the type of development that will wait for LOTV.
The game is played professionally for hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. It's very clear to anyone who plays it at a high level that Terran is being fucked right now quite hard. Yet people advocate we should continue to "experiment" and "create new meta" when we don't even have 1 working meta in the current state. Why don't we start getting back to 1 unit comp that works - then we can work on making it diverse.