On July 24 2014 09:52 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Exactly. Tempest is the epitome of the difficulties DB has to make an unit that is not meant to be a hard counter : remember it was supposed to wreck muta balls and ended up being such a brood lord killer it isn't even fun. A very bad unit which even overlapped in some ways on the role a carefully made carrier could have filled.
Protoss air in general is just quite bad. It has multiple units overlapping with each other and micro interactions are very boring/non-existant. Thus, it needs a complete overhaul. Here is what I would do.
My suggestions for protoss air changes in LOTV (warning: long post incoming)Tempest.- 8 range
- tier 2
- better moving shot
- cheaper.
This means that the Tempest can be a relatively mobile unit in the later game that breakes static defense and work for itself.
Void Ray.- Low acceleration
- 4 range
- More beefy (2 armor, more HP/shield
- Leash-range reduced from 2 to around 0.5, so enemy units can actually escape (which should encourage micro).
Due to it's high HP/low range it will synergize well with all other protoss air units, but will be quite medicore in a straihgt up battle asusming the enemy micro's.
Carrier: The Carrier should be an expensive, supply effective unit that can be used to break someone that goes uber turtle. This can be obtained by increasing maximum amount of interceptors it can fire, which makes it stronger but also more expensive as it needs to pay to rebuild intercettrs.
Further, as I previously wrote, I would like to see the Thor have more of a Goliath-role here. That means that it's anti-armored attack should be buffed signifciantly while it's antilight/splash attack should be changed somewhat. Further, Vikings are weaker vs armored air units.
Given that the Thor has two modes, why not try and create some actually synergy between those two Thor modes. Wouldn't it be cool if you could switch back and fourth during battles against Carriers?
Actually it is possible (I tested it). What is required are the following changes:
- Carrier's intercetpors are more clumped up (more vulnerable to splash from the Thor)
- Interceptors have slightly less HP/more damage
- Thor splash damage needs to be a bit larger
- Thor transformation time needs to be reduced from 4 seconds to less than 1 second.
This way the terran player wanna target fire the Carriers with the Anti-armored weapon, but if he is good, he can move your injured Thors back behind the other Thors and switch them into anti-splash mode where it targets intercetors instead while keeping the Thors out of the Carriers attack-range.
Oracle.
In order to give it moving shot you need to max out it's acceleration and turn-rate + set damage point at 0. For it to be efficient to make the same type of Mutalisk micro vs Marines as saw in BW, the further changes are needed:
- Range increased to 6.
- Attack speed reduced by 50%
- It needs to have less HP/shield (in order to be balanced)
- Damage vs light reduced a bit as well.
- Seperation radius reduced (so you can stack Oracles better, this is important due to how the Starcraft-editor is bugged as Lalush explained in his "depht of micro"-video.
(FYI: I am not making this up. I spent multiple hours tweaking various stats values in order to get the desired "interaction-effects")
The unit rolesOracle = Good vs Widow Mine if detected, but weak vs it in the sense that it dies in 1 hit. Vs Vikings it has no answer in straight combat, but has a mobility advantage vs Vikings. Thors are decent vs Oracles. Vs Marines, the outcome depends on micro. 4 marines can take out 1 oracle, but if the Oracle micro's well it can take out 6-7 Marines.
Void Ray. Very strong if enemy doesn't micro, Can tank Marine shots quite well and thus synergizes well with the other higher DPS protoss units. It is good vs Widow Mines in the sense that it can tank multiple shots, but weak vs it since it can't outrange it, has no detection and typically can't fly away from it in time. Vikings are very weak in a straight up engagements vs it, but can kite it.
Tempest: You can get it out in tier2, where you can make some pressure oriented builds with it and take advantage of terrain. It needs to kite vs Marines as it's weak vs them in straight combat, but due to it's slower movement speed it can't kite forever. Further, Widow Mines can catch up to it, but on the other hand it can outrange Widow Mines from a safe distance. In a straight up battle, this is very weak vs Thors, but late game it has a mobility upgrade which means it can take advantage of the immoilbity of the mech-army and haras it.
Vikings trade roughly even vs this unit.
Carrier: It's also kinda weak vs the Thor (similar to the Tempest), but there are the following diferences; A) Later tech, B) Slower production, C) Unique micro-interaction, D) much more supply-effective, so if the terran mech player turtles on few bases and has lots of tanks, you cannot finish him off with Tempests, but Carriers can often times be the better job if you have the superior economy
Overall, this should mean that all of protoss air units have unique micro interactions and unique unit roles with various advantages/disadvantage compared to their teran counterparts. There are no hardcounters here as all of the terran "counter"-options have some type of disadvantage against the specific protoss air unit. Instead, the terran player needs to rely on a mix of Thors, Vikings, Mines and Marines to effectively combat a good protoss air player.
But I hope that this just functions as an example of how much new gameplay you can create by just changing stats values. You don't need to come in with completley new units or remove old units. For me, it's instead all about the numbers.