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On December 18 2014 08:24 GreenHorizons wrote: I just wonder... If we could replicate food like we replicate digital data (sharing) would people be talking about how it's not fair to the farmers and food distributors?
I'm pretty sure there's a star trek TNG episode about that
but at the end of the day, if you can create infinite surplus of a good then it will just free up part of the labor force until they either change profession or retire. I would imagine that if food replicators actually became a common-thing, then the entire economic model would have to adjust for it but eventually people who were farmers/food sellers would settle into other areas that are in demand (i.e. programming and creation of said replicators). You would probably see governments stepping in to support the mass structural unemployment by temporarily boosting welfare (don't have to worry about starving though, so it might actually cut the cost of welfare long-term).
Here's a relevant blog post I came across on the topic: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090911/0241286162.shtml
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On December 18 2014 22:23 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:24 GreenHorizons wrote: I just wonder... If we could replicate food like we replicate digital data (sharing) would people be talking about how it's not fair to the farmers and food distributors?
Of course they would. It would pretty much wreck the whole world economy.
who gives a shit about luddites
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On December 18 2014 04:16 Dark_Chill wrote: I bought an anime DVD once. Shit was over 40$. Never again. I don't pirate games though, since Steam exists. The games are cheap enough that it feels like I'm paying for how much I think it's worth. Music is pretty expensive as well, and I only buy songs which I really like. That's really not all that expensive lol. I'm torn between getting Bake for Christmas (15 episodes for about 70$ together in Europe/US) or the limited edition, same 15 episodes but 250~300$. Choices choices~ If only it wouldn't be such a mess to import that stuff I probably would have pulled the trigger on limited edition already.
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Russian Federation1401 Posts
Internet piracy is what made my Thesis. I don't know what I would do without the folks at Genesis Library. If you have to wait for your university to acquire the books and articles that you need based only on the information you get from an abstract, you are pretty much fucked.
Sometimes the department might go hard on piracy, so what I do is I get everything, read it, use it, and once the references are cited, I ask the university to pay for it before my work is published.
Since most of what I read from classical philosophy of science states that knowledge should be free and open, I feel I have no ethical problems whatsoever in doing what I do.
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On December 19 2014 02:58 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:24 GreenHorizons wrote: I just wonder... If we could replicate food like we replicate digital data (sharing) would people be talking about how it's not fair to the farmers and food distributors?
I'm pretty sure there's a star trek TNG episode about that but at the end of the day, if you can create infinite surplus of a good then it will just free up part of the labor force until they either change profession or retire. I would imagine that if food replicators actually became a common-thing, then the entire economic model would have to adjust for it but eventually people who were farmers/food sellers would settle into other areas that are in demand (i.e. programming and creation of said replicators). You would probably see governments stepping in to support the mass structural unemployment by temporarily boosting welfare (don't have to worry about starving though, so it might actually cut the cost of welfare long-term). Here's a relevant blog post I came across on the topic: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090911/0241286162.shtml well in star trek afaik, nobody works out of necessity. you wouldnt even need welfare in such scenario (can replicate anything, has mean to energy for such process)
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Bearded Elder29876 Posts
Mod edit - link to piratebay removed
aaaaaaaaaaand we're back soon :D
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On December 25 2014 20:24 739 wrote: edit
aaaaaaaaaaand we're back soon :D ahaha, ok, so the counter means what? Time they have been offline?
The code out on the left is clickable, linking to a google search of the code, showing that it is a hash code for a torrent (for example here mod edit - filesharing url removed; please don't post them directly into thread ) of an interview, that seems to be xmas related? I will not try to download 3 GB on my AU connection. :/ What is that about? The torrent already has over 3k seeders, and another 2k downloaders.
The google search also states (at the bottom) that "In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 5 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) at ChillingEffects.org.". Following the link to the complaint, it says that the complaint is not yet available. So we can no longer claim that we are better than china, as the government is blocking google hits?
There is another code directly under the counter. What is that about?
Funfunfun to follow some drama.
edit: Also, I am in Australia, why is US blocking my search hits?? Scary....
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On December 25 2014 20:41 NeThZOR wrote: Nothing can stop the Bay Yea, Michael Bay makes great movies!
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website clock is now counting down instead of up?
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On December 19 2014 10:14 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 04:16 Dark_Chill wrote: I bought an anime DVD once. Shit was over 40$. Never again. I don't pirate games though, since Steam exists. The games are cheap enough that it feels like I'm paying for how much I think it's worth. Music is pretty expensive as well, and I only buy songs which I really like. That's really not all that expensive lol. I'm torn between getting Bake for Christmas (15 episodes for about 70$ together in Europe/US) or the limited edition, same 15 episodes but 250~300$. Choices choices~ If only it wouldn't be such a mess to import that stuff I probably would have pulled the trigger on limited edition already. Yeah screw poor people, they can barely buy food, why would they need entertainment lol. /sarcasm
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On January 03 2015 20:52 Cynry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 10:14 Toadesstern wrote:On December 18 2014 04:16 Dark_Chill wrote: I bought an anime DVD once. Shit was over 40$. Never again. I don't pirate games though, since Steam exists. The games are cheap enough that it feels like I'm paying for how much I think it's worth. Music is pretty expensive as well, and I only buy songs which I really like. That's really not all that expensive lol. I'm torn between getting Bake for Christmas (15 episodes for about 70$ together in Europe/US) or the limited edition, same 15 episodes but 250~300$. Choices choices~ If only it wouldn't be such a mess to import that stuff I probably would have pulled the trigger on limited edition already. Yeah screw poor people, they can barely buy food, why would they need entertainment lol. /sarcasm
At least here there is enough free entertainment for a lifetime in the libraries. They don't require a computer or internet, both of which are luxuries in the home (though also good for paying bills and so on).
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On January 03 2015 22:02 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 20:52 Cynry wrote:On December 19 2014 10:14 Toadesstern wrote:On December 18 2014 04:16 Dark_Chill wrote: I bought an anime DVD once. Shit was over 40$. Never again. I don't pirate games though, since Steam exists. The games are cheap enough that it feels like I'm paying for how much I think it's worth. Music is pretty expensive as well, and I only buy songs which I really like. That's really not all that expensive lol. I'm torn between getting Bake for Christmas (15 episodes for about 70$ together in Europe/US) or the limited edition, same 15 episodes but 250~300$. Choices choices~ If only it wouldn't be such a mess to import that stuff I probably would have pulled the trigger on limited edition already. Yeah screw poor people, they can barely buy food, why would they need entertainment lol. /sarcasm At least here there is enough free entertainment for a lifetime in the libraries. They don't require a computer or internet, both of which are luxuries in the home (though also good for paying bills and so on). I guess we could debate wether or not the poorer populations have been know to go to libraries, or if they should, but all I was saying is that affirmating that 70$ is not really that expensive for a few hours of entertainment, and addind a lol at the end of it is as ignorant as it is disrespectful. What world do you live in guys, I wonder...
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On January 04 2015 00:15 Cynry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2015 22:02 Yurie wrote:On January 03 2015 20:52 Cynry wrote:On December 19 2014 10:14 Toadesstern wrote:On December 18 2014 04:16 Dark_Chill wrote: I bought an anime DVD once. Shit was over 40$. Never again. I don't pirate games though, since Steam exists. The games are cheap enough that it feels like I'm paying for how much I think it's worth. Music is pretty expensive as well, and I only buy songs which I really like. That's really not all that expensive lol. I'm torn between getting Bake for Christmas (15 episodes for about 70$ together in Europe/US) or the limited edition, same 15 episodes but 250~300$. Choices choices~ If only it wouldn't be such a mess to import that stuff I probably would have pulled the trigger on limited edition already. Yeah screw poor people, they can barely buy food, why would they need entertainment lol. /sarcasm At least here there is enough free entertainment for a lifetime in the libraries. They don't require a computer or internet, both of which are luxuries in the home (though also good for paying bills and so on). I guess we could debate wether or not the poorer populations have been know to go to libraries, or if they should, but all I was saying is that affirmating that 70$ is not really that expensive for a few hours of entertainment, and addind a lol at the end of it is as ignorant as it is disrespectful. What world do you live in guys, I wonder... I know what he was talking about and made a statement that those things are ridiculously expensive, even when imported into the US or EU (US / EU versions are WAY cheaper). Ever looked up what the people who make those things earn? iirc they're (basic animators) getting around 2-3$ an hour while slaving away 24/7 when you can get around 8$ an hour (assumption on my part, but it's going to be somewhere in that area) from working at McDonalds. Even if you go up the chain they're hardly earning more than some part-timer at McD so when I see someone complain about how that stuff is way too expensive I just get really mad as that industry desperately needs more money to pay its people...
I don't even mind torrenting in that particular case because let's be honest, unless you're from the US or JP there's no way to get stuff legally but whining about it being expensive is just a super no-go in that situation. I added the "lol" because I know him somewhat and didn't take it as seriously as I would have with someone else. I'd say what he said was seriously ignorant and disrespectful if anything
Just to clarify things: DVDs / BDs in that industry are considered collector items. Noone expects you to by them. You can watch it online for free if you're from JP / US, you can get a premium account for 5$ a month and get it in HD instead of 480p, online. If you have money by all means go ahead and buy some DVDs / BDs, figures or whatever but there's absolutely no reason to whine about those being expensive with the industry starving as it is.
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Oh well, that's an interesting development. From the point of view of artists, you're right of course. I just focused on the 70$ not being that expensive, knowing that some people are 70$ close to being able to eat every day, yet can't. My bad
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On January 04 2015 00:29 Toadesstern wrote: Ever looked up what the people who make those things earn? iirc they're (basic animators) getting around 2-3$ an hour while slaving away 24/7 when you can get around 8$ an hour (assumption on my part, but it's going to be somewhere in that area) from working at McDonalds. Even if you go up the chain they're hardly earning more than some part-timer at McD so when I see someone complain about how that stuff is way too expensive I just get really mad as that industry desperately needs more money to pay its people...
I find it a bit hard to believe that an animator at for example Pixar is earning a third of a starting salary at mac Donald. I hope you understand my surprise.
Can you provide a source for that?
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On January 04 2015 08:49 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2015 00:29 Toadesstern wrote: Ever looked up what the people who make those things earn? iirc they're (basic animators) getting around 2-3$ an hour while slaving away 24/7 when you can get around 8$ an hour (assumption on my part, but it's going to be somewhere in that area) from working at McDonalds. Even if you go up the chain they're hardly earning more than some part-timer at McD so when I see someone complain about how that stuff is way too expensive I just get really mad as that industry desperately needs more money to pay its people...
I find it a bit hard to believe that an animator at for example Pixar is earning a third of a starting salary at mac Donald. I hope you understand my surprise. Can you provide a source for that?
Even under the worst circumstances (I have heard many horror stories about Disney from artists I know who have worked there) they don't make that little, unless they just work slow as shit(in which case they won't be working long).
Either way I'd be surprised to find out that digital animators don't suffer the same problems of collusion in the industry to artificially keep wages down, as has been exposed elsewhere in the tech industry.
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On January 04 2015 08:49 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2015 00:29 Toadesstern wrote: Ever looked up what the people who make those things earn? iirc they're (basic animators) getting around 2-3$ an hour while slaving away 24/7 when you can get around 8$ an hour (assumption on my part, but it's going to be somewhere in that area) from working at McDonalds. Even if you go up the chain they're hardly earning more than some part-timer at McD so when I see someone complain about how that stuff is way too expensive I just get really mad as that industry desperately needs more money to pay its people...
I find it a bit hard to believe that an animator at for example Pixar is earning a third of a starting salary at mac Donald. I hope you understand my surprise. Can you provide a source for that? he was talking about anime, as in people who draw japanese cartoons. Not 3d animators from Pixar or animators from Disney He's also posting in TLs ADT so that was the only reason I responded to it in the first place. I've seen multiple sources stating that a "basic" animator averages on around 1000k Yen a year (that's 10k USD, while working massive amounts of unpaid hours), key animators average around 2250k and illustrators around 3000k iirc?
I'll search for some sources if you want but you're thinking of the wrong kind of animator. I mean there's been articles about them literally (!) getting worked to death...
Edit: Not exactly a respectable source by any means but I remembered having the A-1 article read over there:
A-1 Pictures “Killed Animator” with 600 Hour MonthPolice have confirmed that A-1 Pictures worked one of their animators to death, ruling that being made to work hundreds of hours of overtime a month drove him to suicide. The case centres on a man, 28 at the time of his death in 2010, employed on as a full-time animator at A-1 Pictures from 2006 to the end of 2009. In 2010 the man quit his job after suffering severe depression, having been denied a transfer after his health collapsed, and later in the year committed suicide, prompting his bereaved family to retain a lawyer and pursue his former employer as being directly liable in a case of “karoushi” – death through overwork. For some reason A-1 Pictures kept no record of the hours employees actually worked, but hospital records included the revelation that he “worked 600 hours in a month,” and Shinjuku police in charge of enforcing labour regulations confirmed that in the months prior to his diagnosis with depression he worked over 100 hours of overtime each month. Found a better source for above: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-05-07/government-office-cites-overwork-in-suicide-of-a-1-pictures-staff-member[...] Animators: “1 Frame = 1 Hour, 1 Frame = $2″“Average annual salaries: Animator (Animation): ¥1,050,000 ($11,500) Animator (Illustration): ¥2,300,000 ($25,000)” Although anime fans can usually be found railing at the supposed exploitation of the animator underclass, the actual situation is rather more nuanced – low level animation work is essentially drudge labour requiring comparatively little skill and even less in the way of creativity, and clearly the majority of animators do not climb the ranks to become high level creative talents. More importantly, without these toiling wretches it is unlikely many niche series could ever be produced at all – fans might find higher wages for animation staff a very mixed blessing. better source for the second one: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2005-11-02/animator's-salaries
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On January 04 2015 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2015 08:49 Cascade wrote:On January 04 2015 00:29 Toadesstern wrote: Ever looked up what the people who make those things earn? iirc they're (basic animators) getting around 2-3$ an hour while slaving away 24/7 when you can get around 8$ an hour (assumption on my part, but it's going to be somewhere in that area) from working at McDonalds. Even if you go up the chain they're hardly earning more than some part-timer at McD so when I see someone complain about how that stuff is way too expensive I just get really mad as that industry desperately needs more money to pay its people...
I find it a bit hard to believe that an animator at for example Pixar is earning a third of a starting salary at mac Donald. I hope you understand my surprise. Can you provide a source for that? he was talking about anime, as in people who draw japanese cartoons. Not 3d animators from Pixar or animators from Disney He's also posting in TLs ADT so that was the only reason I responded to it in the first place. I've seen multiple sources stating that a "basic" animator averages on around 1000k Yen a year (that's 10k USD, while working massive amounts of unpaid hours), key animators average around 2250k and illustrators around 3000k iirc? I'll search for some sources if you want but you're thinking of the wrong kind of animator. I mean there's been articles about them literally (!) getting worked to death... Edit: Not exactly a respectable source by any means but I remembered having the A-1 article read over there: Show nested quote +A-1 Pictures “Killed Animator” with 600 Hour MonthPolice have confirmed that A-1 Pictures worked one of their animators to death, ruling that being made to work hundreds of hours of overtime a month drove him to suicide. The case centres on a man, 28 at the time of his death in 2010, employed on as a full-time animator at A-1 Pictures from 2006 to the end of 2009. In 2010 the man quit his job after suffering severe depression, having been denied a transfer after his health collapsed, and later in the year committed suicide, prompting his bereaved family to retain a lawyer and pursue his former employer as being directly liable in a case of “karoushi” – death through overwork. For some reason A-1 Pictures kept no record of the hours employees actually worked, but hospital records included the revelation that he “worked 600 hours in a month,” and Shinjuku police in charge of enforcing labour regulations confirmed that in the months prior to his diagnosis with depression he worked over 100 hours of overtime each month. Found a better source for above: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-05-07/government-office-cites-overwork-in-suicide-of-a-1-pictures-staff-member[...] Animators: “1 Frame = 1 Hour, 1 Frame = $2″“Average annual salaries: Animator (Animation): ¥1,050,000 ($11,500) Animator (Illustration): ¥2,300,000 ($25,000)” Although anime fans can usually be found railing at the supposed exploitation of the animator underclass, the actual situation is rather more nuanced – low level animation work is essentially drudge labour requiring comparatively little skill and even less in the way of creativity, and clearly the majority of animators do not climb the ranks to become high level creative talents. More importantly, without these toiling wretches it is unlikely many niche series could ever be produced at all – fans might find higher wages for animation staff a very mixed blessing.
For clarity a McDonald's worker in Japan makes about $5.80 an hour. The people working their animators like that (and not properly compensating them) are breaking much more serious laws than the people watching their work. If I was an animator I'd be way more upset about my criminal employers than my fans who don't buy the art.
I have to say I love that the Japanese have a word specifically meaning "worked to death"
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On January 04 2015 09:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2015 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:On January 04 2015 08:49 Cascade wrote:On January 04 2015 00:29 Toadesstern wrote: Ever looked up what the people who make those things earn? iirc they're (basic animators) getting around 2-3$ an hour while slaving away 24/7 when you can get around 8$ an hour (assumption on my part, but it's going to be somewhere in that area) from working at McDonalds. Even if you go up the chain they're hardly earning more than some part-timer at McD so when I see someone complain about how that stuff is way too expensive I just get really mad as that industry desperately needs more money to pay its people...
I find it a bit hard to believe that an animator at for example Pixar is earning a third of a starting salary at mac Donald. I hope you understand my surprise. Can you provide a source for that? he was talking about anime, as in people who draw japanese cartoons. Not 3d animators from Pixar or animators from Disney He's also posting in TLs ADT so that was the only reason I responded to it in the first place. I've seen multiple sources stating that a "basic" animator averages on around 1000k Yen a year (that's 10k USD, while working massive amounts of unpaid hours), key animators average around 2250k and illustrators around 3000k iirc? I'll search for some sources if you want but you're thinking of the wrong kind of animator. I mean there's been articles about them literally (!) getting worked to death... Edit: Not exactly a respectable source by any means but I remembered having the A-1 article read over there: A-1 Pictures “Killed Animator” with 600 Hour MonthPolice have confirmed that A-1 Pictures worked one of their animators to death, ruling that being made to work hundreds of hours of overtime a month drove him to suicide. The case centres on a man, 28 at the time of his death in 2010, employed on as a full-time animator at A-1 Pictures from 2006 to the end of 2009. In 2010 the man quit his job after suffering severe depression, having been denied a transfer after his health collapsed, and later in the year committed suicide, prompting his bereaved family to retain a lawyer and pursue his former employer as being directly liable in a case of “karoushi” – death through overwork. For some reason A-1 Pictures kept no record of the hours employees actually worked, but hospital records included the revelation that he “worked 600 hours in a month,” and Shinjuku police in charge of enforcing labour regulations confirmed that in the months prior to his diagnosis with depression he worked over 100 hours of overtime each month. Found a better source for above: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-05-07/government-office-cites-overwork-in-suicide-of-a-1-pictures-staff-member[...] Animators: “1 Frame = 1 Hour, 1 Frame = $2″“Average annual salaries: Animator (Animation): ¥1,050,000 ($11,500) Animator (Illustration): ¥2,300,000 ($25,000)” Although anime fans can usually be found railing at the supposed exploitation of the animator underclass, the actual situation is rather more nuanced – low level animation work is essentially drudge labour requiring comparatively little skill and even less in the way of creativity, and clearly the majority of animators do not climb the ranks to become high level creative talents. More importantly, without these toiling wretches it is unlikely many niche series could ever be produced at all – fans might find higher wages for animation staff a very mixed blessing. For clarity a McDonald's worker in Japan makes about $5.80 an hour. The people working their animators like that (and not properly compensating them) are breaking much more serious laws than the people watching their work. If I was an animator I'd be way more upset about my criminal employers than my fans who don't buy the art. I have to say I love that the Japanese have a word specifically meaning "worked to death" I do specifically remember the 8$ figure being mentioned somewhere but that was "McD part-timer in tokyo" which is probably way above average for a location to work at.
I'm not saying I have a problem with people not buying it. Heck, I'm torrenting most of the stuff I watch myself simply because there's no other way to go about it unless you have a JP IP and can use stuff like niconico or an US IP and can use crunchyroll or whatever else. It's just stupid to whine about that stuff being too expensive. If you can't or don't want to buy it fine, it's online for free, legally anyways, go watch that. But getting annoyed that BDs / DVDs that are made for people who want to collect them are too expensive is just stupid.
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