The other week I had a marathon ladder session vs hitman where we faced off repeatedly. Facing the master-cheeser on the #DREAMPOOL was a desperate battle to survive, I was never sure what Protoss ridiculousness he would throw at me next. His staple "hitman build", an incredibly fast and powerful 1-gas 7 gate" made a special appearance resulting in a ridiculously close game, ending in one beautiful, clutch moment:
The final moment
Full game
Notes:
A lack of understanding of Protoss low-gas All-ins is the number 1 reason people rage when they lose to them. The most important thing to remember is the Protoss is sacrificing his GAS.
What does Protoss need GAS for? - Everything!! All they can build without it is zealots, nexus, cannons and probes!
Normally we play vs Protoss players that prioritise their gas so they can play the standard game with high gas, powerful, battle changing units like sentries, immortals, collossi, High templar, Voidrays and so on. However when a Protoss player opts to skip GAS he is giving up all those powerful, long-term units, and instead focusing on just two things: Economy (probes!) and Army (lots of zealots to use those minerals). These Protoss players have given up all their long-term advantages and need to do damage immediately, as zealots don't scale well over time. As armies get bigger and are made of higher quality., zealots become relatively useless.
A big reason people die to these timings is overdroning - and most players don't even realise it. Most players look at a normal ZvP replay, see themselves up 15-20 drones around 8-9 minutes and think, "yep that's standard, I need this lead because Protoss has all those efficient powerful units". However when facing a low-gas all-in from Protoss you start to need a much smaller worker lead in order to be ahead. Indeed in the example of this Hitman build, you only need to have as many workers as him, the reason? Because you're on 3-bases, with 1-2 gases mining, huge production advantage and a bit of a tech advantage (roaches > zealots). On the other hand he has NO transition. With just 1-gas to work with he can warp in a VERY limited number of stalkers or sentries and is relying almost purely on zealots. If we can just survive with all 3-bases and some queens intact, we will get so far ahead in the minutes following the fighting. You will soar in drones whilst the Protoss will slowly add on gases and begin his tech, which won't hit any meaningful mass until 5+ minutes later.
So remember, when scouting Protoss checking their gases is vital. For most early attacks we check their natural gases with an overlord hovering by there.
vs Nexus-first/forge opening: no natural gases at 6:30? - Prepare for big potential of an all-in.
vs Gateway opening: No natural gases at 7:30? - Prepare for big potentiial of an all-in.
So this is how scarlett unskillfully slained DRG. On a side note why dont people just 10 pool speed hitman. He likes to go nexus gateway no scout like parting alot and its easily punishable if you just metagame him.
On January 07 2015 02:04 Rickyvalle21 wrote: So this is how scarlett unskillfully slained DRG. On a side note why dont people just 10 pool speed hitman. He likes to go nexus gateway no scout like parting alot and its easily punishable if you just metagame him.
Because you can't generally do that against people in tournaments without guessing extremely well. It's better practice to play the way you would normally.
On January 07 2015 02:04 Rickyvalle21 wrote: So this is how scarlett unskillfully slained DRG. On a side note why dont people just 10 pool speed hitman. He likes to go nexus gateway no scout like parting alot and its easily punishable if you just metagame him.
Hitman's learnt to mix it up a lot so he has quite some variety in his builds at the moment. Though it's definitely a decent gamble to go for something like that!
On January 06 2015 22:11 Teoita wrote: Holy shit the amount of fucks Hitman doesn't give is amazing. I'm so stealing that build :D
Good post!
Haha oh god I shouldn't be spreading awarenesss noooo I'm sorry fellow zergs!
On January 06 2015 22:43 y0su wrote: PiG, loving all the work you put into this stuff! Hopefully I'm able to catch your stream again soon! GL in 2015 mate.
Thanks mate, last stream for a week and a bit is about to start, going into turtle practice mode before WCS Quals!
we need more players like hitman who aren't afraid of a shameless sucker punch. whenever i see him play or encounter him, he does something fast and furious.
I think this particular game could have gone a lot more in Hitman's favor had he been able to control his units so that they don't shoot the hatch needlessly. I don't feel that at any moment, there was any remote chance of actually killing it, yet it soaked up a good 700 hitpoints, which is like 6 dead roaches' worth of damage, no way PiG would hold with even a couple of roaches dying.
To summarise this guide: Depending on how you balance your income, you can either choose a tech or an army advantage over zergs and they have to adapt. While the army advantage will win you the game if the zerg reacts wrongs, it will also lose if he reacts right, while teching up puts you always in a disadvantagous but winnable situation.
I think my protoss understanding just got better, and I have ideas for at least five new all ins I have to test. Thank you PiG!
On January 08 2015 22:52 SatedSC2 wrote: To summarise this guide: Don't over-drone when Protoss doesn't take gas at their natural. That's useful advice and all, but does it really require a whole thread? It's hard to claim that this guide gives an "understanding" of Protoss all-ins and the importance of gas when you don't even analyse the gas-timings behind the countless Protoss all-ins that do take gas at the natural...
It's about taking both gasses in the main, not at the natural. Also, the whole point of this is that "overdroning" strongly depends on the Protoss gas income. The higher the gas income, the more drones you need, to the point that you can be equal on economy if the Protoss is only one gas.
On January 08 2015 22:52 SatedSC2 wrote: To summarise this guide: Don't over-drone when Protoss doesn't take gas at their natural. That's useful advice and all, but does it really require a whole thread? It's hard to claim that this guide gives an "understanding" of Protoss all-ins and the importance of gas when you don't even analyse the gas-timings behind the countless Protoss all-ins that do take gas at the natural...
You clearly do not understand the significance of what PiG was trying to point out....
Thanks for posting this PiG, it def. does help give a deeper understanding of when and when not to drone judging by Protoss gas. Something I need to take into account more often. Thanks for posting.
Although I think the above poster is right...I don't think there is any reason Hitman should have lost the game, besides maybe attacking the hatchery when he shouldn't have, I also missed that part. . :-P
Nevertheless thanks for posting and love your blogs PiG
I'm going to let everyone in on a little secret trick I used to do a lot:
Take two or three of your gases as Protoss, then do this attack slightly delayed (or same timing with one less gateway). Just make sure to take some gas out of each geyser and have Probes on them if an Overlord comes flying in. If you play at a high level where the Zerg looks at your gasses, they will overdone and even possibly throw down Spore Crawlers and just die. Don't forget to consider proxying Gateways in a corner of the map outside your base.
This works especially well when they know you are a cheesier, and you've beaten them with tech timings. Honestly, Protoss versus Zerg is so easy for aggressive Protoss players, there are so many options and Zerg is so predictable early.
I've been having trouble against this one as of late and I have been slowly coming to the same realization in terms of drone count: At first I overdroned by like 10, then I tried only making 5 more than him and I was still having tons of trouble.
Hard to get yourself out of that mindset! It is indeed okay and extremely necessary to have the same econ as the protoss in this case.
So I played hit man yesterday. He probe scouted my 3 hatch before pool build, and did a 2 base, 1 gas robo ---->WP --->2 immortal, mass zealot all in that just wrecked my face. It hit SO fast.
I am not sure how to defend vs this when I open up with a decent macro build that caters to a normalish "rain" style of pvz. Such as, gate, 2 gas, core, nex, mass sentry fast third into whatever, Or even a typical immortal timing that hits closer to 10 min.
I mean, I could meta game the crap out of hit man by doing a "zvz" build: Hatch gas pool, Speed and bane nest before 5 min, into whatever. But that seems..... lame to me. Any advice from other zergs that face hit man or hopefully pig?
On January 17 2015 23:11 EndOfLineTv wrote: So I played hit man yesterday. He probe scouted my 3 hatch before pool build, and did a 2 base, 1 gas robo ---->WP --->2 immortal, mass zealot all in that just wrecked my face. It hit SO fast.
I am not sure how to defend vs this when I open up with a decent macro build that caters to a normalish "rain" style of pvz. Such as, gate, 2 gas, core, nex, mass sentry fast third into whatever, Or even a typical immortal timing that hits closer to 10 min.
I mean, I could meta game the crap out of hit man by doing a "zvz" build: Hatch gas pool, Speed and bane nest before 5 min, into whatever. But that seems..... lame to me. Any advice from other zergs that face hit man or hopefully pig?
Thanks
Banelings can work vs this, but generally you just go mass roach off 3-gas, stop droning around 40 drones and just use stutter step and your mineral-line/hatchery simcity to block all the zealots. The immortals deal good damage, but you can tank it as long as you don't give the zealots surface area.
On January 10 2015 14:29 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm going to let everyone in on a little secret trick I used to do a lot:
Take two or three of your gases as Protoss, then do this attack slightly delayed (or same timing with one less gateway). Just make sure to take some gas out of each geyser and have Probes on them if an Overlord comes flying in. If you play at a high level where the Zerg looks at your gasses, they will overdone and even possibly throw down Spore Crawlers and just die. Don't forget to consider proxying Gateways in a corner of the map outside your base.
This works especially well when they know you are a cheesier, and you've beaten them with tech timings. Honestly, Protoss versus Zerg is so easy for aggressive Protoss players, there are so many options and Zerg is so predictable early.
You spread this disgustingness here! Begone foul protoss!!
Haha that's a good tricky way of executing a similar timing based more around tricking your opponent --> might not work at lower levels because they might not react! But a very good mindgame