On March 14 2015 04:56 Psychotikah wrote: Hi everyone!
I recently got burned out playing Protoss (platinum level), so I tried zerg a bit. Ever since... I became addicted to creep. The pure macro explosion of the race fits my style well.
So far I have been practicing on Europe so I could have an easier climb (currently in gold). I am starting to think I could stick with zerg for a while, so I need to have crisper timings.
My question is for ZvT. Is the build that is suggested in the op with the 6 roaches for defending early pressure any good? I love solid all around builds for the ladder, but is this too safe?
Yeah, unless you're going for a roach timing of some sort I really don't like roach openings that much. They cut into your gas and drone count by quite a bit whereas queens can do the exact same thing for a lot less resources. Just build additional queens/lings instead of roach warren/roaches and you'll find you can get a lot more utility out of them (especially if your midgame is going to be muta ling bane anyways). You should also be getting a 6:30 baneling nest in case of hellbat timings.
Damn, Thank you very much for your time Kane!
Hopefully Terrans on the ladder play standard... ling bling muta is the most fun style in this game. (way more fun than any protoss play can be.)
9 – Overlord 15 – Hatchery 16 – Spawning Pool 17 – Overlord 19 – @100% Spawning Pool, start 2 Queens and 2 Zerglings 24 – Overlord 30 – @100% Queens, start 2 more Queens 36 – 2 Extractors @100% Extractors, start 3rd Hatchery @100 Gas, start Metabolic Boost, and 2 Evolution Chambers @100% Evolution Chambers, start +1 Melee and +1 Carapace Benchmark: When you start +1/+1 (@7:45ish), you should have 4 Queens and around 50 Drones ————–Above is Scarlett’s 3 Hatchery Macro Opener @100 Gas, start your Lair and go up to 4 Assimilators @50% Lair, go up to 6 Assimilators, start Baneling Nest and Macro Hatchery @ 3rd base saturation, start your 4th base @100% Lair, immediately begin Spire and Overlord Speed @100% +1/+1 and the Baneling Nest (should finish roughly together), immediately start +2/+2 and Baneling Speed @100% Overlord Speed, Start an Overseer, and send Overlords to excrete creep/hold position on all potential Terran 4th bases @100% Spire start +1 Flyer Attack @100% 4th base, immediately take and saturate gasses
Something like this could do the job I guess for standard play?
still a gasless build. maybe you should watch the games from WCS Challenger Day1 kane vs. qxc i think its a pretty solid allround build with gas, 7 queens and no roach warren.
if kane is fine with it, i will post the BO-string for the SALT-mod
Ok I'm honestly so confused as to what I should have done this game. Can someone help me?
yeah i got mad at the end. there is some rage. I'm still confused though. I made a fuckload of spore crawlers, a bunch of corruptors, and (probably not enough) vipers. Aside from that I'm confused as to what I can do.
So I think I went into this game with a bit more of a plan. I'm a ling/muta player at heart so I just went for that, tryign to pump out tons of drones early game (didn't really succeed here but did better) and tryign to scout better (which I think I did). What kinds of stuff should I be trying to build on on top of this?
gg! The progression of your build was generally in the correct order. However, you need to follow a build order more precisely, with benchmarks set to both time and drone count. Try watching some pro zvt vods and taking notes. Make sure you know why everything is built at what timing. Here's my ladder zvt build - drone scout with a drone between 13-15 supply in all the possible proxy barracks locations, unless your first two overlords' routes will cover those areas. I've said between 13-15 supply because the amount of potential space for barracks to be placed varies map to map. For example, on Vaani your first overlords should always be sent to the right towards their natural and so you cover the space at the gold. Your second overlord will cover some space directly above/below your main, so the drone scout only needs to cover a small area on the left around your third and fourth - hence I use a 15 scout. Byul uses a 13 scout on Merry Go Round, Snute uses a 13 scout on Catallena on stream frequently. This is stylistic and situational. 15 hatchery 2:40 pool (16) - later than this leaves you vulnerable to the first reaper 2:40 - 2:45 gas. (16 or 15) - later than this makes it difficult to take your third against reaper hellion. As with the drone scout, pool and gas timings can be set more precisely according to the map. On Catallena, a map with many potential proxy locations and a lot of space for reapers to abuse, you might want to go 15 pool for example. Alternatively, on a larger map, 16 gas 16 pool will be safe. 2:40 2:40-2:45 is playable on all maps and will save you having to think about how you open every game. 17 overlord 3 pairs of lings or 1 drone to 18 and 2 pairs of lings. As before, adjust according to the map and/or how confident you are microing slow lings against reapers. 2 Queens. Pull 2 drones out of the gas. Ling Speed. 29 queen 32 overlord 42 overlord 5:45 - 6:10 third hatchery refill your first gas geyser Build a 4th queen immediately after the 3rd hatchery. when both mineral lines are saturated and the next drones are building, take your second gas 44 overlord The timing of the 42 and 44 overlords, as well as the third base are dependent on (you guessed it) the map, and more importantly how much reaper hellion pressure is being applied. Take your third when you can and keep your queens and lings alive. 6:10 - 6:30 overlord scout. 6:30 - 6:45 baneling nest. increase your ling count to 16 (based on how many you built/kept from earlier) next 100 gas, lair. When you're building more drones, 3rd gas. double evos at 150 gas off of 2 gas, or earlier if you're building the third gas. +1 +1 when the evolution chambers complete. Spend all your larvae on droning your third. When saturated, take the rest of your gases. Build drones to fill your gases, take a fourth and a macro hatch immediately 9:00 - 10:00 When the lair completes, Baneling speed, Spire, overlord speed, +2 +2 when +1 +1 completes. Prepare a ling baneling defense (8-16 banelings) to hold off the first 2-medivac push that will hit creep at 10:30 to 11:00.
I'm slightly more vague after the 6 minute mark because you should be responding to the game and adjusting your build. The timings I gave for the baneling nest and lair are safe assuming your overlord sees nothing (mainly no third command centre) or you're not sure what you're seeing. However, this will leave your upgrades slightly behind a terran who goes 3rd cc into 2 engineering bays. You'll also be investing minerals that could be drones into a lair and baneling nest that you don't need yet. If you see a third cc then build your baneling nest last. If you see stim researching or the engineering bays then build your evolution chambers then your lair, then your baneling nest. If you see a third CC but nothing else then get your lair, then your upgrades, then your baneling nest - this is because a third CC can (very commonly right now) be followed by a banshee. This will delay their upgrades and it's possible they'll get cloak, so responding with delaying your own upgrades and having the option to get an overseer by going lair first is safe and reduces your reliance on spores. You can get away with going evolution chambers first here and relying more on spores for an upgrade lead, but it's slightly more dangerous than going lair first. If you see a naked starport with your scouting overlord then follow the build and keep enough lings alive to morph into banelings in case they build hellbats. Spread your overlords to see the medivac and split your lings and creep queens between the front of your base and where the medivac is headed. Splitting your units here to ensures you don't lose drones in the case it's a multiprong attack such as a marine drop with a hellion runby. Or an elevator. If your scouting overlord sees a starport with a tech lab already building a banshee then go lair first and baneling nest. Build a spore in your main and natural bases and morph an overseer when your lair completes and assign it to the same hotkey as your creep queens. The baneling nest will ensure you can defend a banshee-hellbat attack. If your scouting overlord sees 2 factories, this indicates hellions (usually with a tech lab researching infernal pre-igniter). build a roach warren and make enough lings to hold off the hellions until your roach warren is done. Make overlords, make 8 roaches to defend then resume your build. If you see no hellions during the early game, consider building drones after your 44 overlord pops and taking your third gas (and concomitant upgrades and lair) more quickly, then getting your lings after. Never build your baneling nest later than 9:30. Check at 9:30 that you have one. This is to ensure that at best you have banelings speed and banelings before the first medivac push, or at worst speed will finish during the first medivac push but you will be able to hold with slow banelings. When your lair finishes make sure to confirm it's bio with an overseer or a ling scout.
During the first medivac push, Research +1 for air, make mutas and drones while prioritising creep spread and building a queen at your fourth. Making drones before any mutas is greedy because the medivacs can continue to apply pressure but is good if they pull back with their medivacs. Making mutas first is good because you can possibly kill the medivacs. Making a few mutas to push the medivacs back then droning your fourth before resuming muta production is the approach I use (5 mutas before drones). Saturate the minerals at your fourth as quickly as you can without losing creep to the continuing bio push. Research +2 for air and spread your overlords. Z v Bio up until this point is standardised. After the first medivac push, the choices made by the top zergs vary. Take your fifth when you take a good engagement, he's not attacking or you feel safe for some other reason (i.e. you have minerals that you don't need to spend on defending). Take the gases at your fourth for the same reasons (i.e. you have larva to spend that aren't needed for defence). However, There is a trend towards de prioritising these gases, and correspondingly the mutalisk count to afford more ling baneling. This was firstly exhibited by soO then adopted by other zergs. This allows you to defend the parade push more easily and often to be counter aggressive after crushing a push. SoO builds his 7th gas safely and then is aggressive with +2 +2 +2 approximately 12 mutas and 200/200 ling bane for example. Other players still prefer to take the 7th and 8th gases more quickly to increase their mutalisk numbers to between 24 and 30 before reaching 200/200 (Life currently, Scarlett last year). Snute on stream for the last 4 streaming sessions stays on 6 gases until his fifth is established (I suspect this might be to do with his propensity to switch into swarm hosts. Alternatively it might be to do with his current lack of confidence in his zvt, thus prioritise the safer minerl-heavy ling bane composition). Dark plays off of 5 gases (!) with a 9 corruptor ling bane quick-200/200. These decisions are both situational and stylistic. Eventually you want between 20 and 30 mutalisks before building your infestation pit. Creep sread, muta count, safety, overlord spread should all be prioritised over the infestation pit. +1 air carapace and hive. Then research/build the hive ugrades in this order - Adrenal glands, +3 +3 for ground, ultralisk cavern, chitinous plating. Get these upgrades as you can afford them while building enough banelings to hold off the terran +3 +3. You can add +3 for air, pathogen glands and infestors before, or after the ultralisks. If you execute this build order to the letter and don't get supply blocked I don't see why you won't be able to advance into master league SGTK, or anyone else.
This comment is a zvbio muta ling bane build order in the current metagame. It doesn't cover army movements (including engagements, micro or counter attacks) , zvmech, non-standard zvbio macro openings (roach openings, corruptors, brood lords's before ultras, swarm hosts), or all-ins. However, we should discuss those. I have builds for each of them, and so should everyone. If anyone sees flaws in the logic underlying the above build then we should discuss it. I currently only open 14/14 (a discussion in itself) in zvt so it's possible there are some.
Yeah I decided there was little point in just telling you to tighten up your build order, so here's the whole of zvbio for you. Sorry not sorry.
Ok I'm honestly so confused as to what I should have done this game. Can someone help me?
yeah i got mad at the end. there is some rage. I'm still confused though. I made a fuckload of spore crawlers, a bunch of corruptors, and (probably not enough) vipers. Aside from that I'm confused as to what I can do.
Psychonian. To beat his composition of 3-3 void ray you need 200/200 hydra infestor, muta, muta infestor, corruptor infestor, or corruptor viper, or corruptor viper infestor, or corruptor viper infestor spore, or queens in any of those compositions. With creep. With upgrades. You didn't have a single one of those compostions, or upgrades. That is why you lost the engagement. The reason you lost the game is because you over-reacted to the proxy one gate (not a proxy 2 gate as you stated during your tirade at the end of the game), and then didn't drone hard enough, and then didn't scout him double expanding, and then didn't scout his tech choice. Against a proxy 1 gate you can just make 4 lings and queens and then drone. Dance around his pylon with the lings, threatening to kill it. This will keep the first zealots away from your base while you drone. If he keeps making zealots then eventually add a spine and more lings as he walks into your base, micro until the lings pop. Alternatively, run around the gateway to his main with 6 lings and you win the game. Against a 1 base protoss you want gas for ling speed, which you took but didn't mine for a long time. This is dangerous depending on his follow up, which you didn't scout. You were 10 workers behind during his attack with idle larvae, then you built 10 extra lings because you thought he was all in. These lings slowed his production but died to the stalker. They would of been worth more as drones. You built spores against the stargate but didn't check if he was expanding, or re scout him again for the game. He triple expanded and built 6 stargates and you applied no pressure in response. You needed to apply pressure while taking more bases and teching, or to go all in. Both required you to drone before this happened, but you didn't. You floated money which resulted in you having no tech or units when he attacked. Don't over react to 1 gates, and make sure you scout and drone correctly. Apply pressure to the third of people who go multilple/stargate void ray. Watch more pro games.
On March 14 2015 04:56 Psychotikah wrote: Hi everyone!
I recently got burned out playing Protoss (platinum level), so I tried zerg a bit. Ever since... I became addicted to creep. The pure macro explosion of the race fits my style well.
So far I have been practicing on Europe so I could have an easier climb (currently in gold). I am starting to think I could stick with zerg for a while, so I need to have crisper timings.
My question is for ZvT. Is the build that is suggested in the op with the 6 roaches for defending early pressure any good? I love solid all around builds for the ladder, but is this too safe?
Yeah, unless you're going for a roach timing of some sort I really don't like roach openings that much. They cut into your gas and drone count by quite a bit whereas queens can do the exact same thing for a lot less resources. Just build additional queens/lings instead of roach warren/roaches and you'll find you can get a lot more utility out of them (especially if your midgame is going to be muta ling bane anyways). You should also be getting a 6:30 baneling nest in case of hellbat timings.
Damn, Thank you very much for your time Kane!
Hopefully Terrans on the ladder play standard... ling bling muta is the most fun style in this game. (way more fun than any protoss play can be.)
9 – Overlord 15 – Hatchery 16 – Spawning Pool 17 – Overlord 19 – @100% Spawning Pool, start 2 Queens and 2 Zerglings 24 – Overlord 30 – @100% Queens, start 2 more Queens 36 – 2 Extractors @100% Extractors, start 3rd Hatchery @100 Gas, start Metabolic Boost, and 2 Evolution Chambers @100% Evolution Chambers, start +1 Melee and +1 Carapace Benchmark: When you start +1/+1 (@7:45ish), you should have 4 Queens and around 50 Drones ————–Above is Scarlett’s 3 Hatchery Macro Opener @100 Gas, start your Lair and go up to 4 Assimilators @50% Lair, go up to 6 Assimilators, start Baneling Nest and Macro Hatchery @ 3rd base saturation, start your 4th base @100% Lair, immediately begin Spire and Overlord Speed @100% +1/+1 and the Baneling Nest (should finish roughly together), immediately start +2/+2 and Baneling Speed @100% Overlord Speed, Start an Overseer, and send Overlords to excrete creep/hold position on all potential Terran 4th bases @100% Spire start +1 Flyer Attack @100% 4th base, immediately take and saturate gasses
Something like this could do the job I guess for standard play?
still a gasless build. maybe you should watch the games from WCS Challenger Day1 kane vs. qxc i think its a pretty solid allround build with gas, 7 queens and no roach warren.
if kane is fine with it, i will post the BO-string for the SALT-mod
Absolutely, go for it. Just keep in mind I made a couple extra queens (usually I stop around 5) because he put on heavy pressure
So I think I went into this game with a bit more of a plan. I'm a ling/muta player at heart so I just went for that, tryign to pump out tons of drones early game (didn't really succeed here but did better) and tryign to scout better (which I think I did). What kinds of stuff should I be trying to build on on top of this?
SetGuitarsToKill, I noticed that your baneling speed upgrade was really really late in this game, despite your having gotten the baneling nest really early and having floated a lot of resources for a while. I think you even researched +1 muta attack before baneling speed. Banelings are so critical to your defense against most of what Terrans do that I think this upgrade should be way higher on your priority list once you complete your lair.
I did like the way you conducted your muta harrassment towards the end of the game though.
So I think I went into this game with a bit more of a plan. I'm a ling/muta player at heart so I just went for that, tryign to pump out tons of drones early game (didn't really succeed here but did better) and tryign to scout better (which I think I did). What kinds of stuff should I be trying to build on on top of this?
SetGuitarsToKill, I noticed that your baneling speed upgrade was really really late in this game, despite your having gotten the baneling nest really early and having floated a lot of resources for a while. I think you even researched +1 muta attack before baneling speed. Banelings are so critical to your defense against most of what Terrans do that I think this upgrade should be way higher on your priority list once you complete your lair.
I did like the way you conducted your muta harrassment towards the end of the game though.
Thanks. I forgot about baneling speed I think, I'd usually get it earlier.
So I think I went into this game with a bit more of a plan. I'm a ling/muta player at heart so I just went for that, tryign to pump out tons of drones early game (didn't really succeed here but did better) and tryign to scout better (which I think I did). What kinds of stuff should I be trying to build on on top of this?
gg! The progression of your build was generally in the correct order. However, you need to follow a build order more precisely, with benchmarks set to both time and drone count. Try watching some pro zvt vods and taking notes. Make sure you know why everything is built at what timing. Here's my ladder zvt build - drone scout with a drone between 13-15 supply in all the possible proxy barracks locations, unless your first two overlords' routes will cover those areas. I've said between 13-15 supply because the amount of potential space for barracks to be placed varies map to map. For example, on Vaani your first overlords should always be sent to the right towards their natural and so you cover the space at the gold. Your second overlord will cover some space directly above/below your main, so the drone scout only needs to cover a small area on the left around your third and fourth - hence I use a 15 scout. Byul uses a 13 scout on Merry Go Round, Snute uses a 13 scout on Catallena on stream frequently. This is stylistic and situational. 15 hatchery 2:40 pool (16) - later than this leaves you vulnerable to the first reaper 2:40 - 2:45 gas. (16 or 15) - later than this makes it difficult to take your third against reaper hellion. As with the drone scout, pool and gas timings can be set more precisely according to the map. On Catallena, a map with many potential proxy locations and a lot of space for reapers to abuse, you might want to go 15 pool for example. Alternatively, on a larger map, 16 gas 16 pool will be safe. 2:40 2:40-2:45 is playable on all maps and will save you having to think about how you open every game. 17 overlord 3 pairs of lings or 1 drone to 18 and 2 pairs of lings. As before, adjust according to the map and/or how confident you are microing slow lings against reapers. 2 Queens. Pull 2 drones out of the gas. Ling Speed. 29 queen 32 overlord 42 overlord 5:45 - 6:10 third hatchery refill your first gas geyser Build a 4th queen immediately after the 3rd hatchery. when both mineral lines are saturated and the next drones are building, take your second gas 44 overlord The timing of the 42 and 44 overlords, as well as the third base are dependent on (you guessed it) the map, and more importantly how much reaper hellion pressure is being applied. Take your third when you can and keep your queens and lings alive. 6:10 - 6:30 overlord scout. 6:30 - 6:45 baneling nest. increase your ling count to 16 (based on how many you built/kept from earlier) next 100 gas, lair. When you're building more drones, 3rd gas. double evos at 150 gas off of 2 gas, or earlier if you're building the third gas. +1 +1 when the evolution chambers complete. Spend all your larvae on droning your third. When saturated, take the rest of your gases. Build drones to fill your gases, take a fourth and a macro hatch immediately 9:00 - 10:00 When the lair completes, Baneling speed, Spire, overlord speed, +2 +2 when +1 +1 completes. Prepare a ling baneling defense (8-16 banelings) to hold off the first 2-medivac push that will hit creep at 10:30 to 11:00.
I'm slightly more vague after the 6 minute mark because you should be responding to the game and adjusting your build. The timings I gave for the baneling nest and lair are safe assuming your overlord sees nothing (mainly no third command centre) or you're not sure what you're seeing. However, this will leave your upgrades slightly behind a terran who goes 3rd cc into 2 engineering bays. You'll also be investing minerals that could be drones into a lair and baneling nest that you don't need yet. If you see a third cc then build your baneling nest last. If you see stim researching or the engineering bays then build your evolution chambers then your lair, then your baneling nest. If you see a third CC but nothing else then get your lair, then your upgrades, then your baneling nest - this is because a third CC can (very commonly right now) be followed by a banshee. This will delay their upgrades and it's possible they'll get cloak, so responding with delaying your own upgrades and having the option to get an overseer by going lair first is safe and reduces your reliance on spores. You can get away with going evolution chambers first here and relying more on spores for an upgrade lead, but it's slightly more dangerous than going lair first. If you see a naked starport with your scouting overlord then follow the build and keep enough lings alive to morph into banelings in case they build hellbats. Spread your overlords to see the medivac and split your lings and creep queens between the front of your base and where the medivac is headed. Splitting your units here to ensures you don't lose drones in the case it's a multiprong attack such as a marine drop with a hellion runby. Or an elevator. If your scouting overlord sees a starport with a tech lab already building a banshee then go lair first and baneling nest. Build a spore in your main and natural bases and morph an overseer when your lair completes and assign it to the same hotkey as your creep queens. The baneling nest will ensure you can defend a banshee-hellbat attack. If your scouting overlord sees 2 factories, this indicates hellions (usually with a tech lab researching infernal pre-igniter). build a roach warren and make enough lings to hold off the hellions until your roach warren is done. Make overlords, make 8 roaches to defend then resume your build. If you see no hellions during the early game, consider building drones after your 44 overlord pops and taking your third gas (and concomitant upgrades and lair) more quickly, then getting your lings after. Never build your baneling nest later than 9:30. Check at 9:30 that you have one. This is to ensure that at best you have banelings speed and banelings before the first medivac push, or at worst speed will finish during the first medivac push but you will be able to hold with slow banelings. When your lair finishes make sure to confirm it's bio with an overseer or a ling scout.
During the first medivac push, Research +1 for air, make mutas and drones while prioritising creep spread and building a queen at your fourth. Making drones before any mutas is greedy because the medivacs can continue to apply pressure but is good if they pull back with their medivacs. Making mutas first is good because you can possibly kill the medivacs. Making a few mutas to push the medivacs back then droning your fourth before resuming muta production is the approach I use (5 mutas before drones). Saturate the minerals at your fourth as quickly as you can without losing creep to the continuing bio push. Research +2 for air and spread your overlords. Z v Bio up until this point is standardised. After the first medivac push, the choices made by the top zergs vary. Take your fifth when you take a good engagement, he's not attacking or you feel safe for some other reason (i.e. you have minerals that you don't need to spend on defending). Take the gases at your fourth for the same reasons (i.e. you have larva to spend that aren't needed for defence). However, There is a trend towards de prioritising these gases, and correspondingly the mutalisk count to afford more ling baneling. This was firstly exhibited by soO then adopted by other zergs. This allows you to defend the parade push more easily and often to be counter aggressive after crushing a push. SoO builds his 7th gas safely and then is aggressive with +2 +2 +2 approximately 12 mutas and 200/200 ling bane for example. Other players still prefer to take the 7th and 8th gases more quickly to increase their mutalisk numbers to between 24 and 30 before reaching 200/200 (Life currently, Scarlett last year). Snute on stream for the last 4 streaming sessions stays on 6 gases until his fifth is established (I suspect this might be to do with his propensity to switch into swarm hosts. Alternatively it might be to do with his current lack of confidence in his zvt, thus prioritise the safer minerl-heavy ling bane composition). Dark plays off of 5 gases (!) with a 9 corruptor ling bane quick-200/200. These decisions are both situational and stylistic. Eventually you want between 20 and 30 mutalisks before building your infestation pit. Creep sread, muta count, safety, overlord spread should all be prioritised over the infestation pit. +1 air carapace and hive. Then research/build the hive ugrades in this order - Adrenal glands, +3 +3 for ground, ultralisk cavern, chitinous plating. Get these upgrades as you can afford them while building enough banelings to hold off the terran +3 +3. You can add +3 for air, pathogen glands and infestors before, or after the ultralisks. If you execute this build order to the letter and don't get supply blocked I don't see why you won't be able to advance into master league SGTK, or anyone else.
This comment is a zvbio muta ling bane build order in the current metagame. It doesn't cover army movements (including engagements, micro or counter attacks) , zvmech, non-standard zvbio macro openings (roach openings, corruptors, brood lords's before ultras, swarm hosts), or all-ins. However, we should discuss those. I have builds for each of them, and so should everyone. If anyone sees flaws in the logic underlying the above build then we should discuss it. I currently only open 14/14 (a discussion in itself) in zvt so it's possible there are some.
Hi, if you go 4th queen after 3rd base i think you need to safe up energy on your queens so reaper+hellion doesnt snowball out of control. I like to do it like this: First queen at natural: Inject, Tumor, Inject, safe energy; 3rd queen does 2 Tumors then safes energy. This way you have 3 active tumors and 2 transfuses at around 7 minutes (Yes you skip one inject). These two queens become defensive/creep queens and should be hotkeyed seperatly to micro properly against hellions. The natual gets injected by the 4th queen that is build after the 3rd hatchery.
You shouldn't need transfuses unless there are more than 6 hellions, more than two reapers, or a banshee in which case you save. I'd rather have the larva. Maybe you're right though, I just copy Koreans. Send up a replay showing how vital those transfuses are at 7:00!
On March 15 2015 11:38 pmtang wrote: When you use drones from your main to build buildings after it has been saturated, do you replace that drone?
Unless you expect a game-deciding battle (you or opponent all-in) within about two minutes (the time it takes for the drone to pay for itself), yes, you should replace the drone.
Damn, I've forgotten how unforgiving this game is. My mechanics are slowly coming back but wow, do I find myself supply blocked/not paying attention at the most critical of times.
On March 15 2015 11:38 pmtang wrote: When you use drones from your main to build buildings after it has been saturated, do you replace that drone?
I almost always instantly replace the drones if I need to build spores / lay down buildings, I think it is a good habit to practice.
Yep. Instantly, unless an attack is incoming. Or if I have over made drones, then I don't remake.
Question: is OL drops against Protoss worth it? I feel like my ZvPs always go into the usual army positioning stalemate, into me saccing my roach hydra for some army/bases to build swarmhosts while the protoss camps, and I just hate it. If the Protoss is decent with positioning/cannons, I can't force a good enough engagement with my roach hydra and I end up on even ground or slightly worse even though I had the economic lead the entire game. I think getting drop while the Toss is establishing his fourth is better.
I'm just so tired of these stalemate --> blob vs. blob games.
So I think I went into this game with a bit more of a plan. I'm a ling/muta player at heart so I just went for that, tryign to pump out tons of drones early game (didn't really succeed here but did better) and tryign to scout better (which I think I did). What kinds of stuff should I be trying to build on on top of this?
gg! The progression of your build was generally in the correct order. However, you need to follow a build order more precisely, with benchmarks set to both time and drone count. Try watching some pro zvt vods and taking notes. Make sure you know why everything is built at what timing. Here's my ladder zvt build - drone scout with a drone between 13-15 supply in all the possible proxy barracks locations, unless your first two overlords' routes will cover those areas. I've said between 13-15 supply because the amount of potential space for barracks to be placed varies map to map. For example, on Vaani your first overlords should always be sent to the right towards their natural and so you cover the space at the gold. Your second overlord will cover some space directly above/below your main, so the drone scout only needs to cover a small area on the left around your third and fourth - hence I use a 15 scout. Byul uses a 13 scout on Merry Go Round, Snute uses a 13 scout on Catallena on stream frequently. This is stylistic and situational. 15 hatchery 2:40 pool (16) - later than this leaves you vulnerable to the first reaper 2:40 - 2:45 gas. (16 or 15) - later than this makes it difficult to take your third against reaper hellion. As with the drone scout, pool and gas timings can be set more precisely according to the map. On Catallena, a map with many potential proxy locations and a lot of space for reapers to abuse, you might want to go 15 pool for example. Alternatively, on a larger map, 16 gas 16 pool will be safe. 2:40 2:40-2:45 is playable on all maps and will save you having to think about how you open every game. 17 overlord 3 pairs of lings or 1 drone to 18 and 2 pairs of lings. As before, adjust according to the map and/or how confident you are microing slow lings against reapers. 2 Queens. Pull 2 drones out of the gas. Ling Speed. 29 queen 32 overlord 42 overlord 5:45 - 6:10 third hatchery refill your first gas geyser Build a 4th queen immediately after the 3rd hatchery. when both mineral lines are saturated and the next drones are building, take your second gas 44 overlord The timing of the 42 and 44 overlords, as well as the third base are dependent on (you guessed it) the map, and more importantly how much reaper hellion pressure is being applied. Take your third when you can and keep your queens and lings alive. 6:10 - 6:30 overlord scout. 6:30 - 6:45 baneling nest. increase your ling count to 16 (based on how many you built/kept from earlier) next 100 gas, lair. When you're building more drones, 3rd gas. double evos at 150 gas off of 2 gas, or earlier if you're building the third gas. +1 +1 when the evolution chambers complete. Spend all your larvae on droning your third. When saturated, take the rest of your gases. Build drones to fill your gases, take a fourth and a macro hatch immediately 9:00 - 10:00 When the lair completes, Baneling speed, Spire, overlord speed, +2 +2 when +1 +1 completes. Prepare a ling baneling defense (8-16 banelings) to hold off the first 2-medivac push that will hit creep at 10:30 to 11:00.
I'm slightly more vague after the 6 minute mark because you should be responding to the game and adjusting your build. The timings I gave for the baneling nest and lair are safe assuming your overlord sees nothing (mainly no third command centre) or you're not sure what you're seeing. However, this will leave your upgrades slightly behind a terran who goes 3rd cc into 2 engineering bays. You'll also be investing minerals that could be drones into a lair and baneling nest that you don't need yet. If you see a third cc then build your baneling nest last. If you see stim researching or the engineering bays then build your evolution chambers then your lair, then your baneling nest. If you see a third CC but nothing else then get your lair, then your upgrades, then your baneling nest - this is because a third CC can (very commonly right now) be followed by a banshee. This will delay their upgrades and it's possible they'll get cloak, so responding with delaying your own upgrades and having the option to get an overseer by going lair first is safe and reduces your reliance on spores. You can get away with going evolution chambers first here and relying more on spores for an upgrade lead, but it's slightly more dangerous than going lair first. If you see a naked starport with your scouting overlord then follow the build and keep enough lings alive to morph into banelings in case they build hellbats. Spread your overlords to see the medivac and split your lings and creep queens between the front of your base and where the medivac is headed. Splitting your units here to ensures you don't lose drones in the case it's a multiprong attack such as a marine drop with a hellion runby. Or an elevator. If your scouting overlord sees a starport with a tech lab already building a banshee then go lair first and baneling nest. Build a spore in your main and natural bases and morph an overseer when your lair completes and assign it to the same hotkey as your creep queens. The baneling nest will ensure you can defend a banshee-hellbat attack. If your scouting overlord sees 2 factories, this indicates hellions (usually with a tech lab researching infernal pre-igniter). build a roach warren and make enough lings to hold off the hellions until your roach warren is done. Make overlords, make 8 roaches to defend then resume your build. If you see no hellions during the early game, consider building drones after your 44 overlord pops and taking your third gas (and concomitant upgrades and lair) more quickly, then getting your lings after. Never build your baneling nest later than 9:30. Check at 9:30 that you have one. This is to ensure that at best you have banelings speed and banelings before the first medivac push, or at worst speed will finish during the first medivac push but you will be able to hold with slow banelings. When your lair finishes make sure to confirm it's bio with an overseer or a ling scout.
During the first medivac push, Research +1 for air, make mutas and drones while prioritising creep spread and building a queen at your fourth. Making drones before any mutas is greedy because the medivacs can continue to apply pressure but is good if they pull back with their medivacs. Making mutas first is good because you can possibly kill the medivacs. Making a few mutas to push the medivacs back then droning your fourth before resuming muta production is the approach I use (5 mutas before drones). Saturate the minerals at your fourth as quickly as you can without losing creep to the continuing bio push. Research +2 for air and spread your overlords. Z v Bio up until this point is standardised. After the first medivac push, the choices made by the top zergs vary. Take your fifth when you take a good engagement, he's not attacking or you feel safe for some other reason (i.e. you have minerals that you don't need to spend on defending). Take the gases at your fourth for the same reasons (i.e. you have larva to spend that aren't needed for defence). However, There is a trend towards de prioritising these gases, and correspondingly the mutalisk count to afford more ling baneling. This was firstly exhibited by soO then adopted by other zergs. This allows you to defend the parade push more easily and often to be counter aggressive after crushing a push. SoO builds his 7th gas safely and then is aggressive with +2 +2 +2 approximately 12 mutas and 200/200 ling bane for example. Other players still prefer to take the 7th and 8th gases more quickly to increase their mutalisk numbers to between 24 and 30 before reaching 200/200 (Life currently, Scarlett last year). Snute on stream for the last 4 streaming sessions stays on 6 gases until his fifth is established (I suspect this might be to do with his propensity to switch into swarm hosts. Alternatively it might be to do with his current lack of confidence in his zvt, thus prioritise the safer minerl-heavy ling bane composition). Dark plays off of 5 gases (!) with a 9 corruptor ling bane quick-200/200. These decisions are both situational and stylistic. Eventually you want between 20 and 30 mutalisks before building your infestation pit. Creep sread, muta count, safety, overlord spread should all be prioritised over the infestation pit. +1 air carapace and hive. Then research/build the hive ugrades in this order - Adrenal glands, +3 +3 for ground, ultralisk cavern, chitinous plating. Get these upgrades as you can afford them while building enough banelings to hold off the terran +3 +3. You can add +3 for air, pathogen glands and infestors before, or after the ultralisks. If you execute this build order to the letter and don't get supply blocked I don't see why you won't be able to advance into master league SGTK, or anyone else.
This comment is a zvbio muta ling bane build order in the current metagame. It doesn't cover army movements (including engagements, micro or counter attacks) , zvmech, non-standard zvbio macro openings (roach openings, corruptors, brood lords's before ultras, swarm hosts), or all-ins. However, we should discuss those. I have builds for each of them, and so should everyone. If anyone sees flaws in the logic underlying the above build then we should discuss it. I currently only open 14/14 (a discussion in itself) in zvt so it's possible there are some.
I am returning to SC2 after taking quite a long break and am in diamond league at this point. I am really struggling with how to play ZvZ. Are there any common ZvZ openers or recommended builds that people can recommend that are still current. I prefer muta play but I keep losing to roach openers as soon as they scout my muta opener, they just do a +1 or +1/+1 roach timing and I often lose a lot of economy even if I do manage to hold.
I am returning to SC2 after taking quite a long break and am in diamond league at this point. I am really struggling with how to play ZvZ. Are there any common ZvZ openers or recommended builds that people can recommend that are still current. I prefer muta play but I keep losing to roach openers as soon as they scout my muta opener, they just do a +1 or +1/+1 roach timing and I often lose a lot of economy even if I do manage to hold.
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks
Drone to ~50, mass lings and put down 5-6 spines at your natural and 3rd (natural has priority). When he moves out snipe his 3rd and pull back the lings to defend. Make sure your lair and spire are on time, layer should be 6:30 at least.
look up losira vs solar in proleague on vaani research station for some brilliant and inspiring muta ling bane play (and i say this as a roach purist who hates muta players)
Hi guys! I am currently a diamond Zerg player and i always struggeld against 10P Bane. Today i had a game where i went 15P 15H and he did the 10P Bane. I defended it and won the game, but just because it interests me, was my hold fine? Where can i improve? For example if i play vs better players. He fucked it up in the end and blew 4 Banes into my hatch... What could i have done better?