He let him get up a 3rd hatchery without any cannons even though he scouted it in time to get up cannons before lings from the 2nd would get to them.
Once you cannon vs a 15 hatch and block off the main base like he did, you should be able to prevent all expansions.
Every time I see life win games when he opens 15 hatch vs cannons I feel like the Protoss player never cannons properly. Then this game Parting started off doing everything right by continuing to cannon expansions and block off the main base. Then for some reason he just lets life get up an expansion...
Also, another question is that this same game would be an auto loss for Zerg in WoL since there are no swarm hosts right?
I don't think he noticed the drone escape to expand - it was red health and barely made it at all, plus a few lings survived that could protect it. He didn't try to harass that base until way later.
On March 30 2015 18:14 oOOoOphidian wrote: I don't think he noticed the drone escape to expand - it was red health and barely made it at all, plus a few lings survived that could protect it. He didn't try to harass that base until way later.
No, at 5:10 he catches it with his probe immediately after it starts building, then he just lets it...
The hatch that completes and gets killed was only 3/4ths the way done.
On March 30 2015 18:14 oOOoOphidian wrote: I don't think he noticed the drone escape to expand - it was red health and barely made it at all, plus a few lings survived that could protect it. He didn't try to harass that base until way later.
No, at 5:10 he catches it with his probe immediately after it starts building, then he just lets it...
The hatch that completes and gets killed was only 3/4ths the way done.
Ah, you're right. It seems from the vod that he was already transitioning so he just didn't have the minerals to cannon it when he saw it.
Progamers make mistakes when on-the-fly decision making is required.
Often, I'd make decisions only to regret them seconds later. It's a lot easier for viewers to make the correct calls when you aren't preoccupied with playing at 400 apm.
On March 31 2015 03:40 MaximilianKohler wrote: This is one of those things that every tom dick and harry in diamond and masters league gets right though...
Because they're not trying to judge whether to transition or not.
On March 31 2015 03:40 MaximilianKohler wrote: This is one of those things that every tom dick and harry in diamond and masters league gets right though...
Because they're not trying to judge whether to transition or not.
heh.
but actually, with the cannon placement at the 2nd hatch, it wouldn't have stopped lings from getting to the 3rd hatch, meaning it'd require an investment in pylon bumpers on the cannons or they'd be bonked down. that and the $ were going to tech you need for anti-1base zerg cheese response.
On March 31 2015 03:40 MaximilianKohler wrote: This is one of those things that every tom dick and harry in diamond and masters league gets right though...
Yeah and you see them so many times keep cannoning even when it will lose them the advantage they got. Good cannon rushing is all about decision making, ladder tosses though most time just gamble by cannoning everything. If you watch catz he is master of decision making against cannon rushes, during stream he ones said that player with better decision making will get advantage always.
I think that continuing to cannon was probably the right call in this case, but by no means a clear one in general. Extending cannon rushes to deny each base your opponent take, is a huge mineral sink that slows you down immensely and renders you vulnerable to various timings.
And swarmhosts were by no means important in that game. They were the cleanest way to secure the win at that point, but there are so many other ways zerg can win once protoss fails to deny the economy. The cannons are expensive paperweights at that point, easily taken out by a squad of roaches. In WoL, Life would have gone for some other composition and would probably still have won.
You can continue to cannon and still expand. It's happened to me plenty of times.
Continuing to cannon can never lose you an advantage... 1 base zerg can't do s**t vs a cannoned in protoss.
His roach ling attack failed and there's nothing as cost effective as swarm host, so I don't see anything else he could have used to win vs cannons and sentries on 2 base vs 2 base, especially against colossi.
if he kept cannoning he wouldve been further behind in tech. yes, life wouldve been on 1 base then, but parting would also be in the stone age in terms of tech. you literally see him make a nexus with all of his minerals as he scouts that expo. he did not even have a gateway yet. source:
could he have cannon rushed the expansion? sure; but that would also delay his expo nexus, gateway + cyber core, and eveything else after that. he did not make a "diamond/masters league mistake", its called decision making and he decided to macro out of it.
It doesn't matter if his stuff gets delayed at all... Zerg can't kill you when they're on 1 base vs 2 base protoss, period.
* If zerg makes 1 base roaches and kills the cannons to get out of his base that gives you TONS of time to ready defense - cannons, sentries, 1 voidray, etc..
* If zerg goes 1 base nydus speedlings, you should have plenty of time for cannons & wall off.
Once you lock zerg to 1 base you've won. Period. You can do anything you want at that point and have an easy win.
There's a reason why 14 pool is standard vs protoss. If someone knows some magical way to beat a protoss when you're on 1 base please let us know. Because zergs would never have to 14 pool again vs toss.
On March 31 2015 16:07 MaximilianKohler wrote: You can continue to cannon and still expand. It's happened to me plenty of times.
Continuing to cannon can never lose you an advantage... 1 base zerg can't do s**t vs a cannoned in protoss.
His roach ling attack failed and there's nothing as cost effective as swarm host, so I don't see anything else he could have used to win vs cannons and sentries on 2 base vs 2 base, especially against colossi.
Had to rewatch the game, then asked myself if you were really talking about Parting/life GSL grand finals game 2...
At some point it simply isnt worth it anymore and you have to get your second nexus + tech on the way. As long as the zerg cancels most of the hatcheries, he can just keep making bases somewhere else while getting some sort of 1 base tech on the way and 1 base swarm host is still very scary with late tech for protoss.
Maybe he could have cannon rushed the other base as well, but with a hatchery going up in his own base and life letting his "fourth" base finish it gets quite tricky because you have to spend even more ressources on cannons/pylons.
On March 31 2015 16:07 MaximilianKohler wrote: You can continue to cannon and still expand. It's happened to me plenty of times.
Continuing to cannon can never lose you an advantage... 1 base zerg can't do s**t vs a cannoned in protoss.
His roach ling attack failed and there's nothing as cost effective as swarm host, so I don't see anything else he could have used to win vs cannons and sentries on 2 base vs 2 base, especially against colossi.
Had to rewatch the game, then asked myself if you were really talking about Parting/life GSL grand finals game 2...
On March 31 2015 18:18 MaximilianKohler wrote:Once you lock zerg to 1 base you've won. Period. You can do anything you want at that point and have an easy win.
You can't exactly do anything you want. That's the point. You have to defend every potential choice the zerg makes.