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As of late the warpgate mechanic has been the big topic in the sc community. People want to buff gateway units, but can't do so because early game timings would become too powerful because of the warpgate mechanic.
This is something I agree on, but I think it would be really sad to completely remove warpgate, since it in sc2 is one of the things that define the protoss race.
One of the solutions that commonly have been suggested is to delay the warpgate tech, moving the upgrade from the cybercore to a later building like the twilight council. While this might work I have another suggestion I think would work better, since it will preserve the option of doing a warpgate all in, but it will limit it by putting it on a clock, and also add more strategic depth to the protoss macro mechanics.
What I would suggest is to add an ability to the nexus that turns a gateway into a warpgate for 1 minute, for 25 energy (These numbers are arbitrary), and making the warpgate production cycle time equal to normal gateway production cycle time.
Lets say you as protoss are doing a 2 base 8 gate all in. You'll then have the option to save energy on your nexi, and have 2 nexi with 100 energy each when you move out to do your attack. That means you'll be able to turn your 8 gateways into warpgates for 1 minute, which is roughly 2 production cycles. This way you'll be able to do your timing attack but, you have to make something happen fast, because you wont to able to reinforce as easily after the first two warpin cycles.
This way we should be able to keep warpgate and warpgate timing, but making it way less powerful, and more strategic.
You will have to make a decision if you want to save nexus energy for warpgates, or if you want to chronoboost your upgrades, or your gateway (since a chronoed gateway will produce faster than a warpgate). You might also just want to only turn a few gates into warpgates for slow units like adeots and sentires, and just use normal chronoboost on the gates that are producing faster movement speed units like stalkers.
You will also still be able to defend terran drops with warpgates, just not with an ridicules amount of warpins, and only if you save up some energy on your nexi.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this solution to the warpgate problem.
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TBH I don't really like it, but there have been tons of nice options to tweak Warpgate without removing it and Blizzard never tried even one of them...
It is not a bad idea of yours tho, but it is mainly like I gave up with dreaming of Blizz fixing the Warp mechanic. Anyway if there is at least a little posibility, someone should search all the old ideas on the Warpgate issue, and take the very best of each them, then get a lot of support with a thread to persuade Bliz to try at least one.
Good Luck.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sounds like a good idea in theory, but in reality it looks awkward to play with.
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Feels like it won't give enough power tbh. Or alternatively at higher numbers it'll just be another necessity aside from some super fast forge upgrades.
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On June 02 2015 12:15 Plexa wrote: Sounds like a good idea in theory, but in reality it looks awkward to play with.
Could you elaborate? I know this will make it way more difficult to play protoss, especially when defending drops, since you first have to move the camera to your gateway to use the ability on them, and then move to the drop to warp in units to defend. But is this really a bad thing? Making the game more difficult, especially the protoss race, would be a good thing no? Also you would have to think about when and how much nexus energy you use, but terrans have to do the same thing. When you move out against zerg as a terran you need to save up energy on your orbital, so you'll have scans available for removing creep and keeping track of the army.
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That sounds really un-fun and awkward. And messy design--why exactly would you have such a behaviour?
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On June 02 2015 12:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote: That sounds really un-fun and awkward. And messy design--why exactly would you have such a behaviour?
I don't mind criticism, but could you be a bit more constructive please? Your opinion might be very valid, but could you maybe give some reasons why you think this would be "un-fun" and "messy design"? I honestly think this would be way more fun to play with, because you would actually have to put a bit more thought into how you use your nexus energy, much like you have to with terran, which I think is one of the greatest things about the terran macro mechanics. Also I don't see how this would be messy deign. Turning the gates into warpgates would work just like chronoing your buildings does now. It's not like casting this ability makes protoss any less messy than it already is, since you already have to go to your base to use your chronoboost.
And I really think the decision-making process in, "should I chrono my gates to get more units in the long run, or should I turn them into warpgates to get more units right now" could be really interesting.
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It sounds really complicated, and it would also force Protoss to not use chrono boost I like the creativity but I don't think it's particularly elegant.
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honestly the entire idea sounds like it's based on the metal league myth that protoss is "easy to play" in terms of game management
sure there are easy ways to play protoss but at most levels it can be just as "easy" to wreck protoss with a stim timing or widow mine drop or for zerg to wreck terran by making a bunch of yolo banelings. you can exploit any race this way, the game itself doesn't need to be changed to be "harder" or make races harder. if things are OP or boring you nerf or change them
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On June 02 2015 12:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:It sounds really complicated, and it would also force Protoss to not use chrono boost I like the creativity but I don't think it's particularly elegant.
Well the whole idea is that using chronoboost on your gateways would actually be more beneficial since it would lead to a 25% increased production, but if you need units right here and now, if you for example are doing a push or defending a drop, you could use the energy to turn gates into warpgates, to get units instantly. And no matter what you would still need to chrono upgrades in a lot if situations.
On June 02 2015 12:56 brickrd wrote: honestly the entire idea sounds like it's based on the metal league myth that protoss is "easy to play" in terms of game management
sure there are easy ways to play protoss but at most levels it can be just as "easy" to wreck protoss with a stim timing or widow mine drop or for zerg to wreck terran by making a bunch of yolo banelings. you can exploit any race this way, the game itself doesn't need to be changed to be "harder" or make races harder. if things are OP or boring you nerf or change them
The point of this is not to make the protoss race more difficult. The point is making warpgates weaker, so we can buff gateway units, and to add some tension and decision making in how you use your nexus energy.
And just to clarify this is not based on "metal league" myths. I have played a lot of random, but I am mainly a protoss player, and I’ve been masters since early WoL, and I certainly don't think protoss is easier than any of the other races. I do think the protoss macro mechanics is the most boring, and is less difficult/impactful than what the other races got.
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This idea sounds to me like it is even more of an all-in. If you save all your energy for warpgates you wont be able to chronoboost => you have a weaker economy => if your attack fails you are more or less out of the game. I would prefer if the game got LESS binary, no more all-or-nothing attacks and games ending after the first engagement. I want to see people being able to sustain a loss and build back up for a second try instead of keeling over and dying on the spot.
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Why are people only suggesting the changes to the mechanic itself, without talking about how to buff gateway in the first place?
Gateway units are already so shitty i'd rather not have them nerfed even harder...
As for this specific idea... assuming it was good (it seems messy), this fits a lot more to HotS than to LotV. LotV allows zerg and terran to apply ridiculously early pressure - moving warp to Council would not only make warp SO ridiculously slow the tech would be rendered almost irrelevant by the time you research it, not to mention it would force all players into council because you'd be ridiculously punished for doing robo or stargate first (which you need to do right now unless you're going for 2g or mass adept style).
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On June 02 2015 21:06 LEV_maid wrote: Why are people only suggesting the changes to the mechanic itself, without talking about how to buff gateway in the first place?
Gateway units are already so shitty i'd rather not have them nerfed even harder...
As for this specific idea... assuming it was good (it seems messy), this fits a lot more to HotS than to LotV. LotV allows zerg and terran to apply ridiculously early pressure - moving warp to Council would not only make warp SO ridiculously slow the tech would be rendered almost irrelevant by the time you research it, not to mention it would force all players into council because you'd be ridiculously punished for doing robo or stargate first (which you need to do right now unless you're going for 2g or mass adept style). This is what I would like:
- Move Warp-Gate to Twilight or even Templar Archives
- Create a difference between Gateways and Warpgates => Make Gateways much faster then Warp Gates if you want to mass produce an army
- Buff Warp-Gate to make up for it, perhaps warping in units are invulnerable or have bonus armor or warp-in faster
- Buff Gateway units in general because now that Warp Gate is high tech protoss T1.0 and T1.5 can finally become cost efficient
If you think this is a good idea, or at least an improvement, you might want to take a look at SC2 CustomCraft, a mod I made which has some of the above ideas incorporated: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/485664-sc2-custom-craft
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