What do you do when you see nothing with your scan at 6 mins? Let's say your scv didnt get to see where were all the pylons (so that's the case when you're completely in the dark)
[G] How to mech in TvP: A youtube series! - Page 2
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TwiggyWan
France328 Posts
What do you do when you see nothing with your scan at 6 mins? Let's say your scv didnt get to see where were all the pylons (so that's the case when you're completely in the dark) | ||
Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
On May 21 2015 11:03 TwiggyWan wrote: Hey, good stuff for a good strat! What do you do when you see nothing with your scan at 6 mins? Let's say your scv didnt get to see where were all the pylons (so that's the case when you're completely in the dark) a stalker wont be out until about 4:20 (it's really easy to remember, 420BlaZeIT) and if they opened up with double gas, and you cant see the 3rd pylon, it's pretty indicative of a proxy stargate, so in that scenario i finish the ebay, send some SCV's on the map to scout common locations, and start 2 turrets and get them to 90%finished before stopping them building. If i see an oracle i just finish the turrets, and if i dont (by about 6:30 at the latest) i cancel the turrets and prepare for either blink or DT by getting some tanks | ||
TwiggyWan
France328 Posts
Do you still go for an ebay block when on 4 player maps? Do you have 100% winrate in TvP now? If not, could you explain how/why you still lose sometimes? Can't wait for part 3! | ||
Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
I have a full time job, a house and a wife and each of these video's have taken me 30 hours to make, so it's essentially another part time job, not much time to play. Things that catch me out are really bizarre stuff like, pooling 4 oracles before attacking and bursting down my turret, over-reacting to a pressure play and missing my timings window ect. Most of the styles are fairly fleshed out (because theres another 4 for me to show you guys in coming vids) but getting consistent practice vs each style is hard because in the little time i can play, i'm only hitting protoss about 25% of the time, and then of that and the 15ish different 2 base openings they have (not an exaggeration) it can take some time to flesh out the perfect play and timing windows vs each of those different openings. Thats why i have a few practice partners i have grind out specific builds, and then get them to grind out the builds with the optimal response's and openings, such as with the 2nd video, skipping the stalker to get the robo out faster vs a 1rax expo. I vs'd hundreds of protoss players on ladder before i vs'd one VERY smart protoss player that was amazing at reactive play. And it was him that was able to showcase to me that if a protoss plays and reacts perfectly the hellbat drop doesn't work. Because up until i played that guy i slaughtered every robo opening with the hellbat drop. That basically meant i had to go back to the drawing board and flesh out the entire otherside of TvP where i eventually found out how good BC's where. So yeah, TvP is a VERY complicated nuanced matchup and when i'm showcasing these strategy's i wanna be 100% certain and clear in every facet of the game, which is why theres going to be 6 video's all up. So yeah Part 3 should be done in about 3 weeks (yeah i know it's a wait and i'm sorry about that, i'll literally be out of the country for a week and a half so theres not much i can do about it :/) After that i'll finish a video every week, before i dwelve into other strange strategy's like Ghosts in TvT vs Gas first openings ect | ||
intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
It's just common mistakes that happen at all levels of play | ||
terrancake
Sweden30 Posts
For example it seems that scouting a late Robo can mean anything in TvP. Here I was, happily going along with the build as proposed. E-bay block, into his main I see 1 gas, 2 pylons, he gets MSC and a stalker. Pretty standard stuff. Runs down the ramp starts chipping away at the E-bay. Just as planned Scan at 6 minute, saw a 66% done Robo and 3 gateways. Oh wow, I'll do the double factory reactored hellion into hellbat drop. Strap in, we're off to the races! But little did I know, just out side of scan range, a Twighlight Council was warping in. 9minute Warp Prism+DT -> no turret, all energy on mules to afford hellions. Maybe you always have to add safety turrets no matter what vs toss? | ||
Dvriel
607 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 25 2015 23:05 terrancake wrote: Been having a lot of fun with this, but it feels a little gimmicky and random. So much stuff Protoss can do to punish you. For example it seems that scouting a late Robo can mean anything in TvP. Here I was, happily going along with the build as proposed. E-bay block, into his main I see 1 gas, 2 pylons, he gets MSC and a stalker. Pretty standard stuff. Runs down the ramp starts chipping away at the E-bay. Just as planned Scan at 6 minute, saw a 66% done Robo and 3 gateways. Oh wow, I'll do the double factory reactored hellion into hellbat drop. Strap in, we're off to the races! But little did I know, just out side of scan range, a Twighlight Council was warping in. 9minute Warp Prism+DT -> no turret, all energy on mules to afford hellions. Maybe you always have to add safety turrets no matter what vs toss? I think that when meching you just need to build turrets most of the times if you don't see much, since it's a more passive opening. Also 2 mines on the back of command centers can help a ton just in case. But anyways, timings are also quite interesing here. A 3gate build would kick tech around minute 4:30 to 5:30 or so. Protosses commonly make their first tech choose not later than minute 5. So it's a bit suspicious to see a "late" robo. PvT commonly follows 3 potential builds: Stargate>Robo (commonly at 1 gateway), Twilight> Robo or Robo>Twilight. 2/3 possibilities have potential safety turrets. I think that the e-bay block tends to cause overreaction on Toss. Most players tend to go aggro/all-in because it feels like a potential situation to be falling behind on macro. And being delayed vs Terran isn't the most comfortable thing, since Bio is easy to produce, will outnumber the Protoss army, and without enough colossi there is little to do about it. | ||
terrancake
Sweden30 Posts
On May 26 2015 04:13 JCoto wrote: I think that when meching you just need to build turrets most of the times if you don't see much, since it's a more passive opening. Also 2 mines on the back of command centers can help a ton just in case. But anyways, timings are also quite interesing here. A 3gate build would kick tech around minute 4:30 to 5:30 or so. Protosses commonly make their first tech choose not later than minute 5. So it's a bit suspicious to see a "late" robo. PvT commonly follows 3 potential builds: Stargate>Robo (commonly at 1 gateway), Twilight> Robo or Robo>Twilight. 2/3 possibilities have potential safety turrets. I think that the e-bay block tends to cause overreaction on Toss. Most players tend to go aggro/all-in because it feels like a potential situation to be falling behind on macro. And being delayed vs Terran isn't the most comfortable thing, since Bio is easy to produce, will outnumber the Protoss army, and without enough colossi there is little to do about it. I hear you man. If you watch the second video in the OP, Bodzilla changes his build if he sees the Robo warping in when he scans. This is when he transitions into the hellbat drop. This was the build I was trying to do, it looks and feels really strong if you are allowed to get away with it. The problem I see with that one is that you are spending 400 minerals per round of units (2x2 hellions) and you want to start 2 medivcas (200 / 200) and +1 armor (100 / 100). You have to use the energy for mules or you just don't have the minerals. It is already kind of tight so adding the E-bay+turret(s) seems clunky and I don't know how to fit it in. Ever since herO started doing the DT stuff it seems like a lot of Protoss right now is following suit. One sign you can scout for is the amount of stalkers/sentries so I guess you could send the first hellions out on the map to try to figure it out. If you see a low number of gas units, get one round of mines and use the excess minerals to add the E-bay just in case. I'm just theorycrafting though since I've only played against it the one time when doing this build. Most of the time it is as you write, the tech is already done at 6 minute but in that case, following the build in the OP, you don't go for the hellbat timing. | ||
JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 26 2015 04:46 terrancake wrote: I hear you man. If you watch the second video in the OP, Bodzilla changes his build if he sees the Robo warping in when he scans. This is when he transitions into the hellbat drop. This was the build I was trying to do, it looks and feels really strong if you are allowed to get away with it. The problem I see with that one is that you are spending 400 minerals per round of units (2x2 hellions) and you want to start 2 medivcas (200 / 200) and +1 armor (100 / 100). You have to use the energy for mules or you just don't have the minerals. It is already kind of tight so adding the E-bay+turret(s) seems clunky and I don't know how to fit it in. Ever since herO started doing the DT stuff it seems like a lot of Protoss right now is following suit. One sign you can scout for is the amount of stalkers/sentries so I guess you could send the first hellions out on the map to try to figure it out. If you see a low number of gas units, get one round of mines and use the excess minerals to add the E-bay just in case. I'm just theorycrafting though since I've only played against it the one time when doing this build. Most of the time it is as you write, the tech is already done at 6 minute but in that case, following the build in the OP, you don't go for the hellbat timing. I think that the problem was that in the vid (part 2) the Toss went 1 gate Robo with early Nexus, meaning that it was very very unlikely for the Toss to have hughe resistance prepared for the attack , and you might have faced 1 base cheese or with late nexus. 3 gates, Robo and Twilight at min 6 feel too much thing for an early nexus IMAO. | ||
terrancake
Sweden30 Posts
On May 26 2015 06:42 JCoto wrote: I think that the problem was that in the vid (part 2) the Toss went 1 gate Robo with early Nexus, meaning that it was very very unlikely for the Toss to have hughe resistance prepared for the attack , and you might have faced 1 base cheese or with late nexus. 3 gates, Robo and Twilight at min 6 feel too much thing for an early nexus IMAO. Hmm let's see if I can explain what I meant. If you watch the replay that Bodzilla posted or watch the video again, if the toss doesn't get his second stalker, he can easily afford a Twighlight at the third pylon. Which should be out of scan range (and is in the replay). When the scan goes down at 6:09 in the replay, the toss has 170 minerals, 200gas, 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 stalker building, an early 4th pylon building and a MSC. So with the DT+prism build you cut the second stalker and the too early 4th pylon should not have been built in the first place. The toss in the replay would end up at 395 minerals 200gas, that's a lot of cheddar. 1 Twighlight and 2 more gates requires 450 minerals/ 100 gas The twighlight goes down at almost the same time as the Robo, the gates at around 6:10-6:15 which is within the scan duration. So what you see with the scan is, 1 Robo warping in (2/3 done), 1 gate way done and 2 gateways starting to warp in making it look like a pretty normal timed safe Robo build. What you don't see with the scan is the Twiglight at the third pylon. That's why I was pondering the idea of sending the first 2 hellions out to scout for the amount of stalkers, if there is only one cut hellions and get e-bay. If there is two or more, go on with the hellbat build. But on the other hand, he could be cutting stalkers to get a really fast colossus bay instead, planning on doing a colossus all in. Or just some variation on Robo+Blink. Who knows? So maybe the hellion scout won't tell you a lot anyways unless you suicide them up into his main. I would love to see more replays from the OP so we can see how he deals with and scouts all the variations because the build is really fun to play. | ||
Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
Part 3 Turning the tables on blink, is coming along nicely, i managed to really grind out about 6hours of just solid TvP blink games and am confident in the builds i have. Now i just need to finish the script and edit. Hoping to be up by tuesday next week. But to tide you guys over, heres a teaser Wow, Teamliquids still in the stone age. To same some silly cropping, heres just a link to the actual image! | ||
MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
I already play the mine/tank/viking style with good success against Protoss, but I will try this out as well. | ||
JamesT
United States681 Posts
On June 04 2015 01:52 Bodzilla wrote: Sorry i've been gone for a while guys, I had my brothers wedding outside the country and i've been sick ever since. But....good news everyone! Part 3 Turning the tables on blink, is coming along nicely, i managed to really grind out about 6hours of just solid TvP blink games and am confident in the builds i have. Now i just need to finish the script and edit. Hoping to be up by tuesday next week. But to tide you guys over, heres a teaser Wow, Teamliquids still in the stone age. To same some silly cropping, heres just a link to the actual image! This looks really silly, fantastic! | ||
sTYleZerG-eX
Mexico473 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
But please hurry up with the other parts of the series since it is hard to evaluate the overall strategy without seeing all the parts. | ||
Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
But seriously, the battlecruiser rocks. Its so effective and once you get a nice number of them (along with hellbats/thors), its game over 99% of the time. Some try mass carriers but at the end of the day all the interceptors are dead or yamato'ed. Same story for tempests/voids or mass archons/stalkers w/e. Ive yet to see a P deal with this composition effectively and the only thing I can see them is careful HT usage and attacking around the T deathball/abuse its mobility. | ||
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