On July 12 2015 07:09 Canucklehead wrote: Why are they so mean to superman?! Interesting to see superman's mom doesn't follow uncle ben's with great power comes great responsibility philosophy. She's all, you don't owe this planet anything.....besides the fact he'd be dead if his krypton parents didn't send him to this planet where he could grow up.
I would also point out that Spiderman deals with these exact same issues and Uncle Ben is never there to provide feedback. I am sure he would tell Spidy that he needs to make his own decisions and he doesn't need to save people if its ends up ruining his life or making him lose faith in humanity.
Also, people asking why Batman would think he can take out Superman, its because Batman doesn't know he is in a comic book. There is no such thing a invincible or unstoppable in real life. Those are narrative reasons and story choices that they have put in place to create Superman, but that is all they. But Bats doesn't know anything about Superman or what his limits are and can't The idea that he is powerful when he is upholding good and has weaknesses when he is evil is only something we the readers are aware of.
And the Man of Steel Superman is very toned down in the super strength department compared to comic Supes. He seems to get most of his damage through his speed and general immunity to concussive damage. He is much more in line with the animated series, which focused on Superman's speed as well.
I used to read a lot of Superman back in the day, you get used to Lex with hair. Really, he just needs to a rich guy who wants power and Superman can never do anything about.
On July 12 2015 07:09 Canucklehead wrote: Why are they so mean to superman?! Interesting to see superman's mom doesn't follow uncle ben's with great power comes great responsibility philosophy. She's all, you don't owe this planet anything.....besides the fact he'd be dead if his krypton parents didn't send him to this planet where he could grow up.
I see it differently because I don't think she said it to be mean. Martha cares about the world, and she knows that Kent can make it a better place. But she cares about HIM even more, as any mother would. She still remembers holding that scared little boy in her arms when his powers began to manifest in Man of Steel. In fact, her saying what she said is more understandable given that current situation. She's basically saying, "Help them or don't. It's your choice, because you don't owe those haters anything." It's a response to people hating Superman. And she's saying it's your choice: Help them, or screw them and don't help.
Well, I didn't mean his mom is being mean to him. Meant batman and the citizens protesting against him, etc. Sure he doesn't have to help the haters, but with great power comes great responsibility.
On July 12 2015 07:09 Canucklehead wrote: Why are they so mean to superman?! Interesting to see superman's mom doesn't follow uncle ben's with great power comes great responsibility philosophy. She's all, you don't owe this planet anything.....besides the fact he'd be dead if his krypton parents didn't send him to this planet where he could grow up.
People distrust him because he is a demi-god whose peers wanted to wipe out humanity and conveniently showed up at the same time as him. Just as Plansix said, we know Superman is a good guy because of our spectator point of view, we know a million more about him, his purpose and his enemies than the people of that universe or batman.
There is also the fact that people are ungrateful and entitled. I can assure you that if Superman was real, he would get a lot of hate, even when doing the right thing... Could he have saved the world without destroying half of metropolis? Why did he choose to save the people from that collapsing building rather than that one? Why didn't he go to Japan to save the people from that sinking boat instead of going to that burning building in Chicago? Is it because he's racist? Why couldn't he catch that planed before it crashed, was he taking a break?
Superman as a character just doesn't work anymore. His entire shtick is being invincible and being right. Entire universes bend themselves over backward to make sure that whatever Superman does is right. He's like the original and iconic Mary Sue.
The only way to make him remotely interesting nowadays is either to make him weaker and vulnerable (and then he isn't Superman), or to reflect that morality isn't clear cut (which is why I thought him killing Zod in Man of Steel was the best decision they could have ever made).
"Superman doesn't work as a character any more" is something that has been said since the edgy 90s. Just like Captain America. The character is fine and can stand for all the things he normally does. Just read Kingdom Come.
i find myself still enjoying superman with his "invulnerability" he can be hurt, he bleeds tho its much harder and hes weak to magic (not something relatable to reallife but i find it fitting in various storylines in the superman universe)
Also his tendancy to think he's invulnerable also weaks to him just relying on brute force no real tatics opposed to someone is trained to fight, which you then might say how did superman beat Zod (tbh i dont know the real answer or if there is one but i think it was along the lines of superman realising this is his home, everyone he loves and cares about will die and if he should fail his willpower imo is really high to bring out the best/strongest of him when he needs it. Also Zod was super desperate he might not have been thinking too clearly or hadnt had the time to adjust to earth like superman has.
basically I think theres enough story around superman to still be viable for movies (plus its a movie about superheros :D there can be some leeway) hopefully wonderwomen can show clark the difference between fighting with training
On July 13 2015 07:38 Plansix wrote: "Superman doesn't work as a character any more" is something that has been said since the edgy 90s. Just like Captain America. The character is fine and can stand for all the things he normally does. Just read Kingdom Come.
Kingdom Come is literally a blow-back story against the dark and edgy 90's heroes, and really only works because of how stupidly grimdark some (most) of the 90's heroes were. And even then it has to twist things to even further extremes just so Superman can be on the morally right side of things, for the most part.
The Justice League animated series has probably used him best in recent memory, where he's treated as a plot device to bring down the heavy hitters, and left the characterization to all the "lesser" heroes. And of course the only mileage they got from Superman as a character was to tease that he might turn evil.
Captain America has never been in the same boat as Superman because he isn't invincible, and because he's on the lower tier of supers when it comes to power levels. There's a large gap between being a morally righteous character that will stay true to beliefs against the odds, and a morally righteous character that stands above everyone else.
On July 13 2015 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote: Superman as a character just doesn't work anymore. His entire shtick is being invincible and being right. Entire universes bend themselves over backward to make sure that whatever Superman does is right. He's like the original and iconic Mary Sue.
The only way to make him remotely interesting nowadays is either to make him weaker and vulnerable (and then he isn't Superman), or to reflect that morality isn't clear cut (which is why I thought him killing Zod in Man of Steel was the best decision they could have ever made).
(Or rehash the same "Superman turns evil" story)
Have you seen Watchmen? The glowing blue guy would destroy superman yet he was a really interesting character
On July 13 2015 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote: Superman as a character just doesn't work anymore. His entire shtick is being invincible and being right. Entire universes bend themselves over backward to make sure that whatever Superman does is right. He's like the original and iconic Mary Sue.
The only way to make him remotely interesting nowadays is either to make him weaker and vulnerable (and then he isn't Superman), or to reflect that morality isn't clear cut (which is why I thought him killing Zod in Man of Steel was the best decision they could have ever made).
(Or rehash the same "Superman turns evil" story)
Have you seen Watchmen? The glowing blue guy would destroy superman yet he was a really interesting character
And Dr. Manhattan's greatest strength as a character was toeing the line behind omniscient but apathetic, and being a hero. That, and he only exists in a single storyline.
The problem with the Superman character (or any character that fits his archetype), is that his entire character is about policing the world (both in power and morality). Which works in singular storylines, if done correctly, but as a long running central story character, generally results in writers creating more and more contrived scenarios just to keep the character going.
Which I guess you can say about any superhero character, but the Superman archetype falls the hardest on it, because the only thing keeping them from being a tyrant is an unquestionable moral stance.
After that newest trailer we get to see why Batman has such a yearning to test Superman, he was there. Optimistic about the movie and how well Affleck does an older Batman/Bruce Wayne. The visuals are spot on imo for what they are trying to copy with Frank Miller's Dark Knight and how the fight goes down, very excited about that and seeing Batman win with confidence. Alfred looks kinda weird though. Also interested how all the other people like Wonder Woman are going to make their appearance and why.
Hopefully the character design and vague motivations of Batman are the only thing they keep from Dark Knight Returns. I am cautiously hopeful for this tan filtered movie.
On July 13 2015 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote: Superman as a character just doesn't work anymore. His entire shtick is being invincible and being right. Entire universes bend themselves over backward to make sure that whatever Superman does is right. He's like the original and iconic Mary Sue.
The only way to make him remotely interesting nowadays is either to make him weaker and vulnerable (and then he isn't Superman), or to reflect that morality isn't clear cut (which is why I thought him killing Zod in Man of Steel was the best decision they could have ever made).
(Or rehash the same "Superman turns evil" story)
Have you seen Watchmen? The glowing blue guy would destroy superman yet he was a really interesting character
And Dr. Manhattan's greatest strength as a character was toeing the line behind omniscient but apathetic, and being a hero. That, and he only exists in a single storyline.
The problem with the Superman character (or any character that fits his archetype), is that his entire character is about policing the world (both in power and morality). Which works in singular storylines, if done correctly, but as a long running central story character, generally results in writers creating more and more contrived scenarios just to keep the character going.
Which I guess you can say about any superhero character, but the Superman archetype falls the hardest on it, because the only thing keeping them from being a tyrant is an unquestionable moral stance.
Ya I agree, was just playing devil's advocate. Superman is a one-dimensional bore
On July 13 2015 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote: Superman as a character just doesn't work anymore. His entire shtick is being invincible and being right. Entire universes bend themselves over backward to make sure that whatever Superman does is right. He's like the original and iconic Mary Sue.
The only way to make him remotely interesting nowadays is either to make him weaker and vulnerable (and then he isn't Superman), or to reflect that morality isn't clear cut (which is why I thought him killing Zod in Man of Steel was the best decision they could have ever made).
(Or rehash the same "Superman turns evil" story)
Have you seen Watchmen? The glowing blue guy would destroy superman yet he was a really interesting character
And Dr. Manhattan's greatest strength as a character was toeing the line behind omniscient but apathetic, and being a hero. That, and he only exists in a single storyline.
The problem with the Superman character (or any character that fits his archetype), is that his entire character is about policing the world (both in power and morality). Which works in singular storylines, if done correctly, but as a long running central story character, generally results in writers creating more and more contrived scenarios just to keep the character going.
Which I guess you can say about any superhero character, but the Superman archetype falls the hardest on it, because the only thing keeping them from being a tyrant is an unquestionable moral stance.
Ya I agree, was just playing devil's advocate. Superman is a one-dimensional bore
He is only interesting when the world in conflicted about his existence and he is conflicted about helping them. I will argue that Kingdom Come is the best complete Superman story to date.
I have always hated superman cause he is boring, I do like the fanatic/relegious aspect of how some people would see Superman, not as a hero but a god and one who will bring upon a new age etc.
I swear that movie is being made just so they never have to do a back story for a villain ever again. I am sort of ok with it, since back stories get in the way of real stories.
Looks like Harley is the one being tortured by the Joker, and since she looks normal there (with the glasses and clothes), that´s probably the reason she becomes insane.
Even though I like the original story, I guess this makes more sense than the comics...
And do you guys think it´s better to make a separate thread for the Suicide Squad or we keep all in this one for now?