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Blizzard recently announced their current thoughts on Roach burrow movement speed and burrow-move usage in general.
Roach burrow move speed
We agree that we probably went too far with this change. We’ve evaluated not just the high level streams and tournament games, but also looked into many replays that players sent us. Regardless of whether the burrow-move Roaches won Zerg the game, or if the strategy didn’t quite work out, we agree that the current speed might be too much. We’re trying our best to locate a number that encourages burrow-move usage more so than in HotS, but doesn’t make the strategy quite as powerful as it is in the current state.
Burrow-move speed is just too high; Blizzard now knows this, whether they did or didn't before. I love this style, and I want it to be viable, as does Blizzard.
Here are my thoughts on how to make that happen
I love Burrow-move Roaches in LotV. I probably played 200 or so burrow-move games the 1st week of the Beta.
What encouraged me to play a burrow style, and fall in love with it, wasn't the speed, or the amount of damage I was doing, but more the ability to play a macro-oriented version of it. (My average game I make 76 workers, lol)
To play a style and have the confidence of knowing that if you scout a response, you have the ability to tech switch and counter their counter; it's what makes a style viable.
HotS Roach-burrow movement is not that. You must do damage, lots of it, otherwise you're just sitting on Roach tech which expires rather quickly.
Reverting the burrow-move speed roach upgrade back to an upgrade killed that. Now, when you go Roach burrow in LotV, you better do damage otherwise you're in a very similar boat; except thank god the speed is OP so pretty much the answer is yea, I'll be doing damage, lol.
So, this is my proposition.
Remove the requirement for an upgrade while drastically reducing the burrow-move speed.
Maybe make an upgrade to increase the move speed?
The reason behind this are a few things:
1. Roach burrow move, at a non-OP speed, is very difficult to surprise your opponent with. Because of #2.
2. You have to get Roach speed first in any macro-oriented game. This is so you can have the thinnest line of defense needed. ( roach speed is vital for D). Because of this, #3.
3. The style requires you to have been on roach tech for quite a long while. What this means is you better have been massing roaches to optimize the play style.
4. You rarely see a macro roach burrow move speed build. What that would look like would be something like 8 roaches, 4 per Overlord drop, different bases at once, harass with the burrow while macroing and teching to Muta.
Because it takes so long and costs an upgrade, investing 250 gas (burrow+speed) in a style you're only making 200 gas worth of army for isn't exactly the smartest. Only if you truly see that much value out of it. So either the speed is OP, or it shouldn't have an upgrade in order to do an 8 roach burrow move harass macro playstyle.
The style still requires you to get burrow which could be delaying a desired lair/3rd queen/overlord speed, and of course anything else that cost resources.
There is still a give and take, still a valuable choice as to when to go an 8 roach burrow move harass style.
Realize that this style also gives the ability to use burrow blings which I know we would all love to see. I know I love when I'm gifted the opportunity!
Also, don't concern balance, that can come later.
Thank you for reading and thank you for your consideration.
-SirRobin
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Seems reasonable. I'd be ok with making the upgrade cheaper and research faster. They seem a bit too strong with automatically having burrow movement combined with the roach speed. At that point you'll be seeing them everywhere. Even just a sizable research time decrease would be very helpful.
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Roaches are currently so fast while burrowed, that they can be used to bum rush the army and end the game. Is that really what this ability should be used for?
I'm not gonna lie, I've always viewed roaches as a bland, boring, a-move unit, and I've hated the mass roach style for this reason since its inception. Anything that makes it weaker and forces the zerg to use a diverse unit composition is good for the game and a plus in my book. Especially since protoss can no longer play the death ball style, which I've also hated since WoL.
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People go mass roach in PvZ right now?
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On September 09 2015 14:54 crazedrat wrote: People go mass roach in PvZ right now? Well I've seen it being successfully used a number of times against Huk, Puck, MC, Rotterdam, etc. And the sad thing was, it didn't seem like the zerg opponent was outplaying them, but rather that burrowed roaches can't be killed fast enough, especially when you have to split up your army and don't have concentrated fire power. They can tank insane amounts of damage when burrowed. And if they can outrun you, while burrowed, they can enter your bases even if your army is positioned properly.
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The reason roaches no longer automatically get movement when burrowed is because of 1 base burrow roach builds. It is scary enough as it is from a Protoss perspective because you can't open forge against Roaches (Ravagers) meaning you have to not only rush out a Robo, but you have to have enough gateways in the mean time to make sure you don't let them unburrow as they try to heal.
I really like burrow roach though, and think it should be a little easier to get given the toned-down movement speed. I'm not sure how you would balance it so that it gets used more in ZvT or ZvP and not dominate ZvZ. I feel like too many ZvZ games would be decided by the more effective burrow harass, and likewise the less effective burrow harass defense.
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On September 09 2015 16:13 WhiteLuminous wrote: The reason roaches no longer automatically get movement when burrowed is because of 1 base burrow roach builds. It is scary enough as it is from a Protoss perspective because you can't open forge against Roaches (Ravagers) meaning you have to not only rush out a Robo, but you have to have enough gateways in the mean time to make sure you don't let them unburrow as they try to heal.
I really like burrow roach though, and think it should be a little easier to get given the toned-down movement speed. I'm not sure how you would balance it so that it gets used more in ZvT or ZvP and not dominate ZvZ. I feel like too many ZvZ games would be decided by the more effective burrow harass, and likewise the less effective burrow harass defense. Maybe if burrow move (at a slower speed) came with the roach move speed upgrade?
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On September 09 2015 15:02 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 14:54 crazedrat wrote: People go mass roach in PvZ right now? Well I've seen it being successfully used a number of times against Huk, Puck, MC, Rotterdam, etc. And the sad thing was, it didn't seem like the zerg opponent was outplaying them, but rather that burrowed roaches can't be killed fast enough, especially when you have to split up your army and don't have concentrated fire power. They can tank insane amounts of damage when burrowed. And if they can outrun you, while burrowed, they can enter your bases even if your army is positioned properly. Was the Protoss playing standard?
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On September 10 2015 02:00 imJealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 16:13 WhiteLuminous wrote: The reason roaches no longer automatically get movement when burrowed is because of 1 base burrow roach builds. It is scary enough as it is from a Protoss perspective because you can't open forge against Roaches (Ravagers) meaning you have to not only rush out a Robo, but you have to have enough gateways in the mean time to make sure you don't let them unburrow as they try to heal.
I really like burrow roach though, and think it should be a little easier to get given the toned-down movement speed. I'm not sure how you would balance it so that it gets used more in ZvT or ZvP and not dominate ZvZ. I feel like too many ZvZ games would be decided by the more effective burrow harass, and likewise the less effective burrow harass defense. Maybe if burrow move (at a slower speed) came with the roach move speed upgrade? I think this is the most elegant solution. Elimates early roach burrow move cheeses and forces it to lair tech, but doesn't require a massive investment.
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1 base robo immortal warp prism play is advantageous vs. any 1 base zerg style. If you can survive it, you're in an unloseable position. If a probe scouts the Roach warren, or no speedlings researched, and does a 1 base robo build, I don't see it working out well for the zerg.
I'd love for Blizzard to test a both-in-one upgrade. It was pretty much like that at the start of LotV, but at a far faster speed.
The roaches were super slow with burrow move before the roach speed upgrade. Maybe use those exact numbers to test a post roach speed +burrow move upgrade?
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