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Hi,
What does everyone think about lurkers as of now in LOTV? Personally i think they are a bit too strong because of there 9 range. Unless you have skytoss in an engagment with lurkers you are not going to win a fight because they just completely destroy ground units. What do you guys think?
Thanks
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lurkers are a transitional anchor to allow zerg to tech up instead of just doing mass roach hydra into roach hydra viper which is the same boring shit we had to do every game in hots
id be fine with adept hp being nerfed and lurkers also being nerfed (it takes a long long time and a lot of gas to get lurks though)
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They are super strong, but I think it's kind of necessary for it to fullful it's role. It does have a lot of health though and feels really hard to snipe.
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They are pretty strong, but I think they need to be pretty strong because there are so many ways to avoid engagments with these setup-positional units that building anything that is only good for fighting feels like a bad investment to begin with half of the time. Whether the chosen stats are perfect though is discusable. Zerg can get a ton of them in no time if they go unpressured and then it's too late to start a warp prism and harass. The unit's power will depend a lot on the metagame. The lurker den is so high up the techtree that in a pressure oriented meta the unit might not see a lot of play, despite its strenght. But mass lurker might just be over the top as well and force players into skybuilds ZvZ and ZvP.
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The only possible nerf I think might be suitable is lowering the speed the spikes travel. Currently it is very difficult to micro against them, units like stalker should be able to kite around lonesome lurker
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As much as I like the lurker and the intense games that can be derived from it, it might be too strong and mass lurker might be a strategy, but I think there are currently ways around it. I would suggest perhaps making the projectile (the spines) travel slower that they can be microed against by small groups of units and/or making them take longer to burrow so that way you have more time to kill them. I think that protosses will start using warp prism immos/disruptors to clear out lurker lines, or maybe even colossus (this could just be wishful thinking). In ZvZ, I think vipers/ravagers are a good counter to mass lurker, and lurkers of your own can stop/delay mass lurker pushes
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On September 28 2015 20:37 Insidioussc2 wrote: The only possible nerf I think might be suitable is lowering the speed the spikes travel. Currently it is very difficult to micro against them, units like stalker should be able to kite around lonesome lurker What I don't like about the spikes is that they don't really "travel," but rather after a certain time, they damage everything in the spikes' line at the same time. So a unit close to the Lurker is damaged at the same time as a unit 6 spaces away. This is kind of counter-intuitive and does not fit well with the animation.
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On September 28 2015 20:44 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 20:37 Insidioussc2 wrote: The only possible nerf I think might be suitable is lowering the speed the spikes travel. Currently it is very difficult to micro against them, units like stalker should be able to kite around lonesome lurker What I don't like about the spikes is that they don't really "travel," but rather after a certain time, they damage everything in the spikes' line at the same time. So a unit close to the Lurker is damaged at the same time as a unit 6 spaces away. This is kind of counter-intuitive and does not fit well with the animation. If it really works that way, then that is a bug that should be fixed.
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I think most people would agree, that contrary to popular belief, your not suppose to be able to engage into already burrowed lurkers. A lot of people will engage in and be like 'Oh that's OP' as they melt your army before you kill them. The need to keep the damage high so you literally can't walk across them and kill them.
But I'm with the others, they don't seem able to be microd against, or at least as soon as you see spikes or hear the sound your army receives a lot of damage, you need at least a decent warning that they're there, or the ability to dodge around spikes in low numbers.
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Yeah i agree with everyone is saying. The problem i believe (my own opinion) is that ZVP meta at the moment is usually ground fights which make for good action personally. However when lurkers come out it seems like ground armies are literally worthless because as we all agree lurkers just kill them at an extremely fast rate. Going sky toss every time vs a zerg in a macro game seems quite boring and annoying to play.
Also a problem I've faced on ladder is when I'm caught out of position with lurkers the game is 99% over because i cannot engage the lurker without losing my whole army and teching to air by that time isn't possible. My question is that are we now just going to see zvp become a sky toss fest because if so this is going to be a boring matchup or can blizzard do something to help fix/adjust the unit slightly so that ground can also work vs the lurker?
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On September 28 2015 22:17 Sam94 wrote: Yeah i agree with everyone is saying. The problem i believe (my own opinion) is that ZVP meta at the moment is usually ground fights which make for good action personally. However when lurkers come out it seems like ground armies are literally worthless because as we all agree lurkers just kill them at an extremely fast rate. Going sky toss every time vs a zerg in a macro game seems quite boring and annoying to play.
Also a problem I've faced on ladder is when I'm caught out of position with lurkers the game is 99% over because i cannot engage the lurker without losing my whole army and teching to air by that time isn't possible. My question is that are we now just going to see zvp become a sky toss fest because if so this is going to be a boring matchup or can blizzard do something to help fix/adjust the unit slightly so that ground can also work vs the lurker?
Against lurkers you can:
- Abuse the lack of mobility (similar to the way you used to play against swarm host). Use the cheaper recall and adepts. - Use flanking forces to engage (chargelot plus archons from behind the zerg army... quite easy to do in maps such terraform). - Disruptor. It's a cheap unit (150/150), 3 supply. You can have between between 5 and 10 in your main army.
You don't need to go air against lurkers, but you can't just amove into a lurker army.
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The visual and aural aspect of lurkers are awful. Give the spines a proper sound and animation as in brood war. I think this would go a long way already.
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I understand that you shouldn't be able to attack into a fortified position of Lurkers.
But also, there isn't much you can do right now when a whole bunch of Lurkers just walk up to you and burrow. Especially since they outrage all Protoss ground units right now. There's nothing on the ground that can fight them. Also because they're invisible you need an observer but the Hydras are able to kill the obs and you're kind of forced into lurker range to defend it.
I think Lurker range needs to come down to 7 or 8, not 9 as it is now. It's just too good offensively.
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On September 28 2015 22:45 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 22:17 Sam94 wrote: Yeah i agree with everyone is saying. The problem i believe (my own opinion) is that ZVP meta at the moment is usually ground fights which make for good action personally. However when lurkers come out it seems like ground armies are literally worthless because as we all agree lurkers just kill them at an extremely fast rate. Going sky toss every time vs a zerg in a macro game seems quite boring and annoying to play.
Also a problem I've faced on ladder is when I'm caught out of position with lurkers the game is 99% over because i cannot engage the lurker without losing my whole army and teching to air by that time isn't possible. My question is that are we now just going to see zvp become a sky toss fest because if so this is going to be a boring matchup or can blizzard do something to help fix/adjust the unit slightly so that ground can also work vs the lurker? Against lurkers you can: - Abuse the lack of mobility (similar to the way you used to play against swarm host). Use the cheaper recall and adepts. - Use flanking forces to engage (chargelot plus archons from behind the zerg army... quite easy to do in maps such terraform). - Disruptor. It's a cheap unit (150/150), 3 supply. You can have between between 5 and 10 in your main army. You don't need to go air against lurkers, but you can't just amove into a lurker army.
Disagree, everything just MELTS if you attack into Lurkers. You NEED a lot of disruptors (produced from the Robo.. not easy to get 5 out) or air units....
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On September 28 2015 22:55 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 22:45 Tiaraju9 wrote:On September 28 2015 22:17 Sam94 wrote: Yeah i agree with everyone is saying. The problem i believe (my own opinion) is that ZVP meta at the moment is usually ground fights which make for good action personally. However when lurkers come out it seems like ground armies are literally worthless because as we all agree lurkers just kill them at an extremely fast rate. Going sky toss every time vs a zerg in a macro game seems quite boring and annoying to play.
Also a problem I've faced on ladder is when I'm caught out of position with lurkers the game is 99% over because i cannot engage the lurker without losing my whole army and teching to air by that time isn't possible. My question is that are we now just going to see zvp become a sky toss fest because if so this is going to be a boring matchup or can blizzard do something to help fix/adjust the unit slightly so that ground can also work vs the lurker? Against lurkers you can: - Abuse the lack of mobility (similar to the way you used to play against swarm host). Use the cheaper recall and adepts. - Use flanking forces to engage (chargelot plus archons from behind the zerg army... quite easy to do in maps such terraform). - Disruptor. It's a cheap unit (150/150), 3 supply. You can have between between 5 and 10 in your main army. You don't need to go air against lurkers, but you can't just amove into a lurker army. Disagree, everything just MELTS if you attack into Lurkers. You NEED a lot of disruptors (produced from the Robo.. not easy to get 5 out) or air units....
If the zerg have lurkers burrowed and hydra/roach well positioned you are not supposed to attack into it. And I believe that against ground zerg play (lurkers/ultras) we need two robos with 3 bases.
You could be underestimating the power of disruptors. Zerg off creep can't split.
The tricky part of lurker armies is when you are playing from behind economically (say, because your adept harass got shut down). You need resources to flank/harass and tech.
On September 28 2015 22:48 B-royal wrote: The visual and aural aspect of lurkers are awful. Give the spines a proper sound and animation as in brood war. I think this would go a long way already.
Rifkin was saying that he talked with Blizzard's sound designers about this and they agreed that the lurker sound needs a rework. We can expect at least new sound soon (TM).
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I am not really sure, few times I've seen Protoss army consisting of mass Stalkers, few Immortals and 5 Colossi, they were managing to beat Lurker army. Sure, Protoss lost a lot of units but that is the whole point, to trade units, not just lose 30 supply while other side has lost 120.
Also, didn't they buff Colossus range back to 9?
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On September 28 2015 22:55 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 22:45 Tiaraju9 wrote:On September 28 2015 22:17 Sam94 wrote: Yeah i agree with everyone is saying. The problem i believe (my own opinion) is that ZVP meta at the moment is usually ground fights which make for good action personally. However when lurkers come out it seems like ground armies are literally worthless because as we all agree lurkers just kill them at an extremely fast rate. Going sky toss every time vs a zerg in a macro game seems quite boring and annoying to play.
Also a problem I've faced on ladder is when I'm caught out of position with lurkers the game is 99% over because i cannot engage the lurker without losing my whole army and teching to air by that time isn't possible. My question is that are we now just going to see zvp become a sky toss fest because if so this is going to be a boring matchup or can blizzard do something to help fix/adjust the unit slightly so that ground can also work vs the lurker? Against lurkers you can: - Abuse the lack of mobility (similar to the way you used to play against swarm host). Use the cheaper recall and adepts. - Use flanking forces to engage (chargelot plus archons from behind the zerg army... quite easy to do in maps such terraform). - Disruptor. It's a cheap unit (150/150), 3 supply. You can have between between 5 and 10 in your main army. You don't need to go air against lurkers, but you can't just amove into a lurker army. Disagree, everything just MELTS if you attack into Lurkers. You NEED a lot of disruptors (produced from the Robo.. not easy to get 5 out) or air units....
I think the core question is whether Protoss can play like in HotS with a very strong 3-base (or 2-base) pressure build. Because in that scenario the zerg plainly shouldn't get into more than a handfull of lurkers and that rather late just like in HotS where the Zerg has to stay roach/hydra for a long time due to not being able to afford higher tech while defending. More than ever with how they are redesigning Protoss around stronger early game units and a cheaper splash-alternative to the colossus. In that scenario the lurker count should rise pretty slowly and the Protoss should be able to have some robo-tech units out before the first lurkers are done. If that isn't the case and zerg can just mass a bunch of lurkers then I think Protoss indeed has a problem because they don't really have a camper-unit like the liberator or siege tank that can stop the lurker from running up and most of their units are too slow to disengage properly.
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Strong defensive positional play is good for this game I think. I wish siege tanks could be as powerful! Lurkers are pretty expensive, take up a good amount of supply, and are fairly immobile. Don't attack directly into them; make the zerg spread around. 1-3 lurkers, if set up to defend an expansion, are pretty quick and easy to kill with some spreading.
Disruptors work pretty well against them too, from what I've seen on fenner/Stephano's streams.
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On September 28 2015 23:14 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 22:55 DinoMight wrote:On September 28 2015 22:45 Tiaraju9 wrote:On September 28 2015 22:17 Sam94 wrote: Yeah i agree with everyone is saying. The problem i believe (my own opinion) is that ZVP meta at the moment is usually ground fights which make for good action personally. However when lurkers come out it seems like ground armies are literally worthless because as we all agree lurkers just kill them at an extremely fast rate. Going sky toss every time vs a zerg in a macro game seems quite boring and annoying to play.
Also a problem I've faced on ladder is when I'm caught out of position with lurkers the game is 99% over because i cannot engage the lurker without losing my whole army and teching to air by that time isn't possible. My question is that are we now just going to see zvp become a sky toss fest because if so this is going to be a boring matchup or can blizzard do something to help fix/adjust the unit slightly so that ground can also work vs the lurker? Against lurkers you can: - Abuse the lack of mobility (similar to the way you used to play against swarm host). Use the cheaper recall and adepts. - Use flanking forces to engage (chargelot plus archons from behind the zerg army... quite easy to do in maps such terraform). - Disruptor. It's a cheap unit (150/150), 3 supply. You can have between between 5 and 10 in your main army. You don't need to go air against lurkers, but you can't just amove into a lurker army. Disagree, everything just MELTS if you attack into Lurkers. You NEED a lot of disruptors (produced from the Robo.. not easy to get 5 out) or air units.... If the zerg have lurkers burrowed and hydra/roach well positioned you are not supposed to attack into it. And I believe that against ground zerg play (lurkers/ultras) we need two robos with 3 bases. You could be underestimating the power of disruptors. Zerg off creep can't split. The tricky part of lurker armies is when you are playing from behind economically (say, because your adept harass got shut down). You need resources to flank/harass and tech. Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 22:48 B-royal wrote: The visual and aural aspect of lurkers are awful. Give the spines a proper sound and animation as in brood war. I think this would go a long way already. Rifkin was saying that he talked with Blizzard's sound designers about this and they agreed that the lurker sound needs a rework. We can expect at least new sound soon (TM).
I'm not talking about attacking them though. I'm talking about them coming to my 3rd, containing me, and slowly leap frogging their lurkers and sieging me. At that point I NEED to break the contain because my main is running out of minerals.
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So attacking into burrowed lurkers is supposed to work. Okay, but only if I can run into sieged tanks. "What are zoning units?" for 100 please.
I face plenty of opponents who have no trouble microing against lurkers, and actually I see most high level players/streamers underusing lurkers because they feel like people can outmicro them too easily.
It's funny how different views can be sometimes.
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