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Germany58 Posts
Please note, this is in no ways a balance complaint.
I think Terran got the short end of the stick design wise.
I feel like the only cool things Terran gets in LotV are the Reaper grenades, which seem to only be a factor in the early game and Siege Tank drops, which go against the nature of what a Tank is supposed to be.
The Liberator and Cyclone are both very stale units in my opinion, especially if you compare them to Disruptors, Adepts and Ravagers. The Liberator has no interesting micro capabilities and fills the role which Tanks should have filled since WoL. The Cyclone also is boring to use and in a very weird place design wise where it's either very ineffective in low numbers, but gets almost broken once you hit a critical mass. Also both units seem to be frustrating for the other races to play against because there is little counterplay.
I feel like both Zerg and Protoss get really cool units/changes that allow for very interesting and diverse plays while Terran is more or less the same.
How do you guys feel about that?
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Well, I think it is partially true. Terran is still predominantly Bio with Liberators at the moment, I think Mech took a hit in this last patch as honestly the economy change helped Zerg a lot in transitional periods, so the Swarm Host is good again now especially vs Mech.
I personally think that the Cyclone is a poorly designed unit and could probably have a makeover / replaced with a different unit that would give Terran it's Flair back.
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The liberator is cool and will change at least PvT forever (which is good). Now, the Cyclone seems to be a little underwhelming at the moment. Since the unit is changing all the time, its hard to judge its actual potential and roles right now. No one knows how this unit will fare.
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I think the cyclone is a cool unit actually, its kind of expensive but allows you to open in a more flexible way now, specially with the buffed AA, is good as mobile attack unit allows the normally defensive mech to be aggressive and out in the map, specially early-mid game and the AA makes a good unit for a mech army.
Now I'm not sure how strong the cyclone is, since no top player uses them, but they allow for cool mech play IMO.
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in HotS and in LotV all we got were units that replace roles we already had in other units that got nerft in order to make Bio work in TvT. So it is quite natural to be underwhelmed since we had that in a better version to begin with.
I would have prefered if they reverted all the nerfs on our units since WoL was released. Yes even the Battle cruiser I think its fine now. Viking Hellion Siege Tank Thor. I like the design of those more then what they got replaced with.
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The Liberator isn't underwhelming (even though in need of further balance tweaks without a doubt) I think it's cool, and it's nice to see how it's doing in PvT, not allowing the deathball to just march over the map and pick a fight.
The Cyclone is probably the stupidest unit they have added to the game, surpassing even the Warhound, it's like they say around and were like, "Hey, Terran needs to micro alot, how about we give them a unit that does tons and tons of damage with pretty much zero micro or skill cap?" and thus the Cyclone was created.
Ghost changes are nice, snipe is way good now, like murderously good, and after watching Byul vs. Innovation and seeing how many damn fungals you need to make anything happen I'm REALLY hoping the Infestor can get the ghost treatment.
Siege tank pick up thing is just atrocious and lazy.
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Cyclones are underwhelming and I think they will always be underwhelming. The design is just too all around. With the current design it will either be underwhelming or totally broken.
The only problem I have with the liberator is that it seems to have replaced the thor and the siege tank. I can still see uses for the siege tank in TvT, but I don't see why anyone should ever build thors again.
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I think I would have rather they followed through with some sort of additional Barracks unit. The Reaper is in a great place, imo, and this Snipe patch has certainly helped the Ghost.
The cyclone ... lame, at the moment. The "lock-on" ability is a terrible activated/auto-cast ability.
The Liberator is great. I really like it.
But, design-wise, LotV is complete. Now we're just working on fine-tuning the balance.
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Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
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Cyclones should be redesigned. Bland uninteresting all-around unit, with too little counterplay allowed especially when massed.
Liberators are interesting as vP flying tanks, but they need a rebalancing.
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I switched to zerg, because of my hate for the cyclone.
To be fair though terran has always been the most developed race. Not that easy to add a meaningful unit to a race that has pretty much everything and it's all useful.
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feels like all the races have a couple too many units, really. I mean terran has what, 17 or 18 units now?
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On October 05 2015 05:08 Aocowns wrote: feels like all the races have a couple too many units, really. I mean terran has what, 17 or 18 units now? That was bound to happen since they decided there would be three expansions and that those expansions would be marketed as multiplayer expansions. That was not so obvious even for Blizz, after HotS was released I remember a game designer said in an interview they were considering not adding units in LotV, or only doing so after taking others away.
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I think the liberator is really strong. I like to bitch about it because I think it was unnecessary and I don't like playing against the no-go-circles, but strategywise the unit is awesome for Terran. It's so easily combineable and solves so many problems at once that I think it opens up the tech for terrans a lot. The Cyclone is and has always been bullshit. The last time I tried it against Protoss I got countered by basically anything, because the unit is not very costefficient. The last time I played against it as zerg I just made roaches, with the same result. The unit doesn't excel at anything, nor is it easily massable. It's just an expensive mech-marine. The unit plainly suffers from having too much utility and not enough ooomph now that it isn't broken anymore. And the infinite kiting mechanic isn't fun.
That being said I don't think Terran "gets the short end of the stick". I think the lurker isn't a very fun unit either at the moment, though definitely powerful in the right situations. The disruptor looks cool - until everyone will stop playing it as an army unit outside of PvP because they realize they never ever get a hit off with it against bio or zerg compositions. The ravager is very cool, yet, without the range upgrade a bit mediocre. Especially vs Terran, but in general I feel like a more fleshed out/balanced metagame will reveal how costinefficiently it is for 100gas, though I think it will stay a stable of ZvP. We saw a similar thing with hydralisks in the HotS beta with the new speed upgrade. It was fun for a while until the meta got tight and hydras became rare outside of PvZ and even there they wouldn't work that well without the 10%dps buff of HotS. Adept is also just strong and I guess you can do a lot of multitasking with it with dedicated builds. I think the effect isn't lasting. Eventually either the meta or the balance will make it so that you can just shut down adept harass. And then what's left is a unit with good stats but no micro.
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On October 05 2015 05:25 Big J wrote: I think the liberator is really good. I like to bitch about it because I think it was unnecessary and I don't like playing against the no-go-circles, but strategywise the unit is awesome for Terran. It's so easily combineable and solves so many problems at once that I think it opens up the tech for terrans a lot. The Cyclone is and has always been bullshit. The last time I tried it against Protoss I got countered by basically anything, because the unit is not very costefficient. The last time I played against it as zerg I just made roaches, with the same result. The unit doesn't excel at anything, nor is it easily massable. It's just an expensive mech-marine. The unit plainly suffers from having too much utility and not enough ooomph now that it isn't broken anymore. And the infinite kiting mechanic isn't fun.
I think the unit design is just bad, the infinite kiting idea is boring. I wish they would try some redesign in that last phase, though this is unlikely.
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On October 05 2015 04:48 Beastyqt wrote: Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
A unit that repairs mech ... Ha. I have never thought of that.
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On October 05 2015 05:30 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 05:25 Big J wrote: I think the liberator is really good. I like to bitch about it because I think it was unnecessary and I don't like playing against the no-go-circles, but strategywise the unit is awesome for Terran. It's so easily combineable and solves so many problems at once that I think it opens up the tech for terrans a lot. The Cyclone is and has always been bullshit. The last time I tried it against Protoss I got countered by basically anything, because the unit is not very costefficient. The last time I played against it as zerg I just made roaches, with the same result. The unit doesn't excel at anything, nor is it easily massable. It's just an expensive mech-marine. The unit plainly suffers from having too much utility and not enough ooomph now that it isn't broken anymore. And the infinite kiting mechanic isn't fun.
I think the unit design is just bad, the infinite kiting idea is boring. I wish they would try some redesign in that last phase, though this is unlikely. I think they at least consider to give it a more dedicated role so that it makes more sense strategywise. For example I would like to see the gas-cost tuned down to 100 or 75 and the unit more balanced around being some form of assault tank. A Mech-Roach if you want. Something that allows Terran players to go out and about in the midgame with Mech. Not a huge redesign, but cut some stats here and there (kite range by a lot, more cooldown on the lock-on), add a tiny bit more speed, maybe redesign the upgrade a bit (I'd just tune it down a bit with the way I would make it cheaper).
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Cyclone is an AA tool that is designed to kite to back off into suppor ti ng liberator/tank line.
Its tad too expensive for what it does (AA) but I do think it has its role and place.
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What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
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On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi) AA: Vikings and liberators?
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