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Esports teams unionize
In an attempt to further legitimize tournaments and better serve the players, eSports teams have compiled a list of requirements that must be met in order for their teams to compete. Alexander Kokhanovskyy (Na'Vi's CEO) has recently sent an email to tournament organizers with a list of demands for their participation. He's had issues with organizers in the past, but this time he has backup. TSM, V.P, Titan, Fnatic, TL, C9, CLG, NiP, and envyus are among the teams that have been confirmed to back the list, but there could be more. In the statement it is said that the teams, apart from those in the US, will decline any online only event that does not have a LAN finals. The minimum prize pool has also been required to be $30000 for events over four days and $10000 for events under four days for a US team to participate. International teams have asked for much more however. CSGO teams have set the minimum prize pool at $75000 or higher, and DOTA 2 teams are asking for $100000 prize pools. On top of that, the teams are asking for travel support, requiring the organizers to cover either the flights, or three hotel rooms for six people. The entire email can be read here
I'm curious how many tournaments make enough money to afford these demands and where the profits come from.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I personaly think it's stupid.
Who do the teams think they are to demand that kind of stuff?
I understand to ask things like, guaraanteed hotel room or something like that for big events, but those prizepool claims are ridiculous. One thing is to say "We can't go to this tournament because going wouldn't be proffitable for our team with the current prizepool" and another, very different thing, is to say "We want at least this prize pool or all of us are going to boycot your tournament".
Unions are to, first of all, protect the players interest, not the team's, and second of all this isn't protecting anything, they can't demand things like that and this will only hurt upcoming tournaments organizers that aren't as big as Dreamhack, ESL and MLG.
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On October 06 2015 11:25 [Phantom] wrote: I personaly think it's stupid.
Who do the teams think they are to demand that kind of stuff?
I understand to ask things like, guaraanteed hotel room or something like that for big events, but those prizepool claims are ridiculous. One thing is to say "We can't go to this tournament because going wouldn't be proffitable for our team with the current prizepool" and another, very different thing, is to say "We want at least this prize pool or all of us are going to boycot your tournament".
Unions are to, first of all, protect the players interest, not the team's, and second of all this isn't protecting anything, they can't demand things like that and this will only hurt upcoming tournaments organizers that aren't as big as Dreamhack, ESL and MLG.
I think unions for teams are okay. they seem to be reaching a bit though. I wouldn't mind some sort of list but this seems too much.
demands just seem too high. I understand making some high demands so you can drop them as leverage but If your entire proposal is unmanageable can't think that's a good thing, I could be wrong though. its 100 percent a negotiating tactic though, also maybe an attempt at a show of force that the union is actually real and not going anywhere.
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Doesn't sound like reasonable demands. I don't really know the Dota2 and CS:GO scenes but in smaller sports players would miss online only events and small tournaments with little prize money. The more the merrier, don't need a ferrari and a 5 stars hotel.
But keep in mind the demands are bigger for Dota2 and CS:GO and smaller or mentioned as recommendations for Hearthstone and Heroes.
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I think the prize pool + travel support numbers are too high in a vacuum. If this creates a clearly tiered scene where there are online warrior 7k pubstacks that are regularly competing in online only events and then LAN finals type events where you have name brand pro teams...that's a very good thing for the scene (for all of these games).
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There's plenty of good reasons for teams to "unionize".
Like wanting less online and group play that milks their participation for low-cost viewership.
Or refusing to take part in mandatory show matches.
Or boycotting all organizations that don't pay up in a timely manner.
Demanding prize pool and travel money, however, is just dumb.
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Canada16217 Posts
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Omg, in my opinion heroes is not really looking like it will be a hit esport, if you are invested in the scene becoming popular then these kinds of detrimental moves are foolish. Sure if every tournament accepts these requirements then it was a good move but the way it looks to me is that it will only hurt the already brittle scene. Recently I listened to a podcast were it was argued that a lot of the people in the heroes scene are seeing themselves as big-time stars. It was theorised that maybe that its a Blizzard game is reason enough for people to be sure of its success and rest easy because of that. Seems to me the pro-scene really doesn't have any idea of their precarious situation, if this keeps up the scene will collapse on itself.
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I've never been to these events and can't really tell if these requests are reasonable but I can understand the teams forming some sort of union and creating some demands. A limited amount of high quality events tends to be much better for viewership than a random wash of tons of online cups and the like.
Something like tennis has would be good with grand slams, atp 1000, atp 500 and challenger stuff but then in terms of heroes something like blizzcon, regionals and online cups where qualifying points for a big global tournament are won and minimum requirements are needed.
Some stuff is silly though at first glance like demanding just 1 bo3 and 1 bo5 max per day, some events simply need more than that. And I also doubt if many teams want to agree to these conditions. It's not like other sports where participating in small events is really annoying for players because online cups are very easy to participate in. I do understand the frustation of these cups lasting too long, numerous delays and the like.
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hmm I think its a bit early for that. But atlaest they didn't go to insane with their demands.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On October 06 2015 11:25 [Phantom] wrote: I personaly think it's stupid.
Who do the teams think they are to demand that kind of stuff?
They're almost the entirety of a tournament/s product. People don'e tune into MLG/ESL/DH anyone because they want to watch DreamHack, they tune in because Fnatic and Evil Geniuses are playing. As one example, at ESL One last weekend during the first day viewership was around 100k concurrents when Team Secret and Evil Geniuses (separate matches) were on, while it was around 50k for the other two. They understand their value and they're well within limits for the context of Dota and CSGO.
On October 06 2015 11:25 [Phantom] wrote: Unions are to, first of all, protect the players interest, not the team's, and second of all this isn't protecting anything, they can't demand things like that and this will only hurt upcoming tournaments organizers that aren't as big as Dreamhack, ESL and MLG.
Team unions exist in every major sporting competition, you're assigning value based on the word "union" that is far divorced from the reality.
All in all I think people are really overrating. In the context of Dota and CSGO, very few of these demands are things tournaments aren't doing already, a team like Cloud9 or Fnatic isn't going to an event that isn't providing the vast majority of these anyway. The last online-only league in Dota was a total disaster and no tier 1 team will ever agree to try it again for the next few years. The prize pool requirements may bump things a little but it's hardly a stretch and the travel requirements are being done by nearly anyone with the budget to run a decent event as it is.
Bryce Blum wrote a good article on it here that mirror my own opinions.
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Well, the only question is how much money they're worth ? I mean, you can pay Lionel Messi millions because he brings so much more value that it's not an issue.
But I can help but think it looks like kids bargaining, asking X to get half of X and I hate that way of asking.
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That's my question too. How much money does a typical tournament earn for the people hosting it? I guess I figured that sponsors were paying for players travel and hotel. A sponsorship isn't worth much if your team isn't seen regularly. If the tourneys are making a bunch of profit after paying for their workers and location and all other costs, then perhaps a prize increase is warranted. I just don't see how a HOTS tourney is that profitable. I was under the impression that many were hosted strictly for their advertising benefits for the sponsors. Which is value, but if that is all they are getting out of it, then that's different from pro sports where they a TV deal and high price and in demand tickets for attendance means the event is making money even before sponsors and advertising are considered.
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Wow, so how much money are these teams generating for the tournaments?
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On October 06 2015 11:25 [Phantom] wrote: I personaly think it's stupid.
Who do the teams think they are to demand that kind of stuff?
I understand to ask things like, guaraanteed hotel room or something like that for big events, but those prizepool claims are ridiculous. One thing is to say "We can't go to this tournament because going wouldn't be proffitable for our team with the current prizepool" and another, very different thing, is to say "We want at least this prize pool or all of us are going to boycot your tournament".
Unions are to, first of all, protect the players interest, not the team's, and second of all this isn't protecting anything, they can't demand things like that and this will only hurt upcoming tournaments organizers that aren't as big as Dreamhack, ESL and MLG.
Its a negotiation. You always ask for stupid stuff and come down from there.
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Don't know why people wouldn't be happy for teams demanding more. If it doesn't work it doesn't work, and if it does it can only be good for the tournament scene.
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The natural answers is that all big tournamnets make an agreement to boycott all these teams - without tournaments, teams will become irrelevant in no time and there will always be other peopel willing to fight for some prize money.
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On October 07 2015 03:17 opisska wrote: The natural answers is that all big tournamnets make an agreement to boycott all these teams - without tournaments, teams will become irrelevant in no time and there will always be other people willing to fight for some prize money. I am sure that plan will work out and the viewers will just switch to watching whatever c-tar teams come to the matches. No possible way that back fires or one event doesn't follow through and gets all the A-List teams and viewers.
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Average viewership of Tier 3 leagues/tournaments in dota 2 on teamliquid is like maybe 10K viewers?
Average with at least 2-3 tier 1 teams is regularly 100K, not to mention finals days etc.
Demands are good, but prize pool amount is stupid. Traveling costs is also stupid, there is no real sports where all tournaments pay traveling costs, probably only with olympics and world cups.
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On October 07 2015 03:38 TechSc2 wrote: Average viewership of Tier 3 leagues/tournaments in dota 2 on teamliquid is like maybe 10K viewers?
Average with at least 2-3 tier 1 teams is regularly 100K, not to mention finals days etc.
Demands are good, but prize pool amount is stupid. Traveling costs is also stupid, there is no real sports where all tournaments pay traveling costs, probably only with olympics and world cups. Most sports say regionally bound with the exception of EU football. And travel costs have been a thing for a while. They cost a lot and the "exposure" isn't normally to justify it unless they are getting money not matter what.
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