Fezvez's' Co-op guide and hero review - Page 2
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4318 Posts
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
On November 17 2015 07:23 ChristianS wrote: I see a pretty big difference between "vultures are bad" and "vultures require APM." Personally, I find the multitasking aspect of these fun, and anyway, they don't really require much more attention than keeping half your army back to defend. Frequently there will be a dynamic where, for instance, the game throws two attacks at you from different directions, while simultaneously expecting you to go after some objective that's out of your base. With ~20 supply of vultures and maybe a few turrets, you can just ignore one of those attacks, kill the other with your entire bio ball, and then go after the objective. I'd consider it way more of an APM sink, and way more difficult, to split your army in half, and then try to micro both armies to defend both attacks while retaining enough bio that you'll still be able to go after the objective. Kiting with vultures is way easier than kiting with bio, for instance, and kiting with bio is usually what you have to do against the red hybrid anyway. On top of all that, vultures are so cheap! You'll have to get a factory anyway, and you can easily just put a tech lab on it, research the 50/50 for the replenishment upgrade, and queue out vultures one at a time. Alternatively if you find them that useful, you can add just one more factory with reactor and get two at a time without even sacrificing your ability to make tanks. I mean, you're complaining about the resources lost on replenishing mines, but in the average attack against your base would you lose more than 8 marines? Because spending all 24 mines from 8 vultures and replenishing them costs less than 8 marines, and if I defended one of those attacks with all the hybrid and such only losing 8 marines, I'd call that a huge win. I mean, don't build vultures if you don't want to, I don't care. But I'm amazed that vultures got specifically mentioned in your review as being bad, while you suggested people build battlecruisers. Every single game I've tried to make battlecruisers they've basically just been wasted supply. I think my intent was not conveyed clearly, and my first answer was not adequate. I stated that Raynor is a mineral heavy character because of MULEs. Consequently, you would spam marines. You could alternatively spam vultures, which I suggested against. I personally have tried once with moderate success mass vultures + battlecruisers, a game which I won in the end, but which would have been much quicker and less ugly with almost any other unit composition. I did not state that vultures are beyond terrible, that there is never a reason to make them, or anything along those lines. I recognize that small amount of vultures are really good early game (solo waves 2 to 4), but I feel that there are better use of your APM in the endgame when you cruise around with your 200/200 around the map. They can still be good in the right hands, but that was not my point at all in the OP. My point was what you could dump your minerals into. To repeat once again, mass vultures is fun, but terrible. Spend your 5k minerals in turrets and marines | ||
DrSeRRoD
United States490 Posts
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
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Sitinte
United States499 Posts
Wraiths, while they still take a backseat to Goliath/Tank, still do rather well with their evasion ability, and the fact that their attack speed can be halved to that of an unstimmed marine. (0.85) | ||
ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
On November 17 2015 11:07 fezvez wrote: I think my intent was not conveyed clearly, and my first answer was not adequate. I stated that Raynor is a mineral heavy character because of MULEs. Consequently, you would spam marines. You could alternatively spam vultures, which I suggested against. I personally have tried once with moderate success mass vultures + battlecruisers, a game which I won in the end, but which would have been much quicker and less ugly with almost any other unit composition. I did not state that vultures are beyond terrible, that there is never a reason to make them, or anything along those lines. I recognize that small amount of vultures are really good early game (solo waves 2 to 4), but I feel that there are better use of your APM in the endgame when you cruise around with your 200/200 around the map. They can still be good in the right hands, but that was not my point at all in the OP. My point was what you could dump your minerals into. To repeat once again, mass vultures is fun, but terrible. Spend your 5k minerals in turrets and marines Oh, I think we agree there. I'm pretty sure there's no reason to make battlecruisers, and I don't think you should make more than ~10 vultures. If you spam them then they'll trade poorly against most enemies, and there's just not much use for that many spider mines – they're really good on defense, but running into a group of enemies and placing spider mines during the fight is a lot weaker. That said, I think it's much stronger to make ~10 vultures than to just have 20 more supply of bio. A constant supply of OP spider mines for just 15 minerals each? Yes, please! | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1607 Posts
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Tankz123
Denmark228 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
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Amui
Canada10558 Posts
On November 17 2015 20:34 Destructicon wrote: Wait a minute Monk, are you telling me that Hercules can pick up sieged tanks? Apparently so. I never built a single Hercules so far, but I guess it's a good time to start. Swann Ramps slowly, but it is very safe to cc first because turrets are so OP, especially against zero where they can kill infinity lings. | ||
fezvez
France3021 Posts
On November 17 2015 20:34 Destructicon wrote: Wait a minute Monk, are you telling me that Hercules can pick up sieged tanks? It's broken as fuck, you can pick up and drop sieged tanks. Two Hercules are often enough to carry your whole army around On a side note, I agree with most of what Monk says (again, Vultures are good. Mass vultures is bad). I would swap Void Launch and Temple of the Past in terms of difficulty, but I agree that it completely depends on the hero. Some have amazing AA, some not so much | ||
HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On November 17 2015 20:34 Destructicon wrote: Wait a minute Monk, are you telling me that Hercules can pick up sieged tanks? Yes. They can hold up to 8 Sieged Tanks. With the +40 damage upgrade that's 800+ burst damage per hercules that can be microed. | ||
Phael
United States281 Posts
1.) Hercules is stupid. You have a bunch of tanks, you right click Hercules, you'd expect the hercules to wander over and pick them up, but no, it only picks up those in range otherwise it just stays put. At least medivacs make an effort to meet the units halfway. 2.) Need so many herculei. I think I needed like seven or eight for a full 200/200 army. 3.) When you doom drop, siege tanks dropped siege mode. Which is okay, except that they'll often trap like 20 goliaths in between them and if you want to free them up you either have to exclusively put tanks in the hercules (which sort of defeats the purpose), or unsiege, split, then siege up again, which again makes things so annoying to micromanage. I dunno, I kinda think that Zagara is the second best commander after Vorazun. Banelings and scourge take care of everything so quickly, and upgraded zerglings are stellar. | ||
HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
Also #1 never happened to me. My hercules have always went to my sieged tanks. | ||
trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
and him allowing yourself and team mate to get more gas is amazing. this is the key here. | ||
DrSeRRoD
United States490 Posts
Is there anyone that wants a consistent Co-Op partner for Brutal? I'd like to knock out the 150 wins over the next couple of weeks but could use a good/strong partner or someone that can abuse the hell out of Vorazun and practically carry the win. I'm up for running the same map over and over if it makes it easier/faster. I imagine I would improve greatly over time with a consistent strategy, but would like to have that opportunity to learn and force myself to macro better without the frustration of just losing every single game trying on my own or frustrating a pub partner by queueing Brutal. | ||
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30538 Posts
Only played Artanis since I've just completed the campaign, but the 5 sec immortality is indeed crazy on marines and lings lol Tried out photon cannons+archons but that wasn't very good as you really miss the mobilty of an actual army and archons get stuck in allied units. | ||
tshi
United States2495 Posts
On November 17 2015 19:26 monk wrote: VLUTURES R FUN Yeah same here. It took a bit of tinkering, but using Vultures (with auto-refill on spidermines) was pretty fun cuz it kept me on my toes in terms of things to do while playing. I realized that after you amass a big number of them, they're like a spell you cast down to make stuff die so that your base is covered and stuff while the main army is moving around doing specialized things | ||
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