Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 93
Forum Index > Media & Entertainment |
We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi | ||
NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
| ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
| ||
[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
In unrelated discussion, this actually looks amazing: http://imgur.com/a/8gS2O?gallery | ||
Yoav
United States1874 Posts
But the echo is not supposed to be "just because"; it's supposed to have a point. When the Iliad's death of Sarpedon, Petroclus and Hector look similar, the point is not "echoes... yay!" it's "death comes not from human skill, but rather from the whims of the gods. All your boasting is an attempt to make sense of the senselessness of war and death." And a dozen other things; I've just picked one idea you can take from that one incident in one work. The point is to enhance artistic depth, not just to rhyme for rhyming's sake. Anyway, as the guy said, at this point prequel-lovers are on the level of intellectual validity of climate scientists (I'd actually love to see polling data on this from kids, adults, and cinema scholars). The view is so widely discredited as to get really worked up about one random article. It has lost all real credibility. | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
| ||
Falling
Canada10923 Posts
On November 22 2015 05:24 Blackfeather wrote: Not sure, the theory is pretty good. I could doubt the entire mind control tricks, but the fighting stances? On an entirely animated cgi character? The immense agility at times but the obvious goofyness at other times? I mean he does this weird superhuman jump, dodges a laser and catches the droid that is sneeking up behind him in the midst of a battlefield, but steps into poo and stuns his tongue with something he's been warned about a few moments earlier? The lack of common sense that is so extreme that whenever someone tells him not to do something, he guaranteed does it 5 seconds later and escapes disaster by a hairsbreadth each time? Also let's be honest, fanfic would have been something to write after the movie came out and got a lot of hate. Not 16 years later when everyone has calmed down, has mostly forgotten their disappointment and is semi-hyped for the sequel of the old series. Say "Jar Jar" to a fan of the old series and you can be sure that his blood pressure is hitting unhealthy values within seconds. I haven't watched the Drunken Master specifically, but I have watched a number of wushu/ kung fu films- Ip Man and Jet Li variety. It strikes me that while that the unassuming master of martial arts theory would have a moment where he drops the mask to drop either some knowledge bombs (Episode I Yoda style) or dark side seduction (Sidious style). Particularly once people are alone and vulnerable, we ought to see some of that hidden wisdom or scheming come forth... but when Padme is feeling out of sorts, we get: "JAR JAR : Mesa Ja Ja Binksss... PADME : I'm Padme, I attend Her Highness, You're a Gungan, aren't you? (Jar Jar nods) How did you end up here with us? JAR JAR : Me no know...mesa day starten pitty okeyday witda brisky morning munchen. Den boom....getten berry skeered, un grabbed dat Jedi, and before mesa knowen it...pow! Mesa here. (he shrugs)...getten berry berry skeered." To be a good twist, there actually needs to be proper set up so that things make sense in retrospect. Simply pulling the rug out from under your feet, while surprising, is a very unsatisfying twist And we don't even get the scheming come out with the 'wesa got grand army' scene. It's a boast that Padme develops into her own scheme, but it seems to me that the supposed 'Darth' Jar Jar is working cross purposes with Sidious. Particularly as all the Sidious scenes have him wanting to wipe out the queen and the resistance once she returns. Furthermore, all those hand signals supposedly meaning Jedi mind tricks more remind of all those Illuminati conspiracy theorists that interpret every single hand signal as some satanic code and find triangles absolutely everywhere, including the curl shape of one's bangs. He matches much more the comic bumbling peasant than a hidden wushu master. Lucas can be pretty darn straight forward in his storytelling. Consider the closing pyre scene "But which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice." pan shot across to Sid.. *cough* I mean Palpatine. Lucas establishes the Rule of Two in Episode I... Maul was just killed, that leaves one more. "Darth" Jar Jar seems to posit a third Sith as the theory keeps Palpatine as a Sith, which directly contradicts the rule that Lucas just finished telling the audience. In line with Lucas' direct storytelling... all the other examples of mind control were very direct declarations to the recipient "these aren't the droids you're looking for" "you want to go home and rethink your life" "Credits will do fine." I can think of no examples where there were mind tricks through mere presence that the movies acknowledge- this is more akin to the indoctrination theory of the Mass Effect series... which also came out of mass disappointment from the ending, but that one at least had the idea of indoctrination established somewhat in universe. That one gif just made me realize there was more inane stuff going on. http://gfycat.com/EnormousColorfulIbisbill# It goes too fast when actually watching it, but I had no idea the battle had been reduced to fistfights between the Gungans and the Droids... in a battle with tanks and laser guns, it turns into a bar room brawl... | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
Overall, while he's clownish enough to earn a lot of flak, he really is a sideshow and has little to do with what is and isn't wrong with the prequels. | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On November 23 2015 13:06 xDaunt wrote: This Ring Theory business is exactly why I hated English and literature classes in high school and college. Intricate structure and literary/cinematic tricks and devices don't necessarily make movies and books good. As for the Star Wars prequels, no amount of intricate structure can save the movies from their shitty acting and shallow dialogue. Or like how many different interpretations of Things Fall Apart can there really be? | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 23 2015 23:04 ThomasjServo wrote: Or like how many different interpretations of Things Fall Apart can there really be? Yep, exactly. Mental masturbation at its finest. | ||
Archeon
3236 Posts
On November 23 2015 13:29 Falling wrote: I haven't watched the Drunken Master specifically, but I have watched a number of wushu/ kung fu films- Ip Man and Jet Li variety. It strikes me that while that the unassuming master of martial arts theory would have a moment where he drops the mask to drop either some knowledge bombs (Episode I Yoda style) or dark side seduction (Sidious style). Particularly once people are alone and vulnerable, we ought to see some of that hidden wisdom or scheming come forth... but when Padme is feeling out of sorts, we get: To be a good twist, there actually needs to be proper set up so that things make sense in retrospect. Simply pulling the rug out from under your feet, while surprising, is a very unsatisfying twist And we don't even get the scheming come out with the 'wesa got grand army' scene. It's a boast that Padme develops into her own scheme, but it seems to me that the supposed 'Darth' Jar Jar is working cross purposes with Sidious. Particularly as all the Sidious scenes have him wanting to wipe out the queen and the resistance once she returns. Furthermore, all those hand signals supposedly meaning Jedi mind tricks more remind of all those Illuminati conspiracy theorists that interpret every single hand signal as some satanic code and find triangles absolutely everywhere, including the curl shape of one's bangs. He matches much more the comic bumbling peasant than a hidden wushu master. Lucas can be pretty darn straight forward in his storytelling. Consider the closing pyre scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VEC6HqUCfo "But which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice." pan shot across to Sid.. *cough* I mean Palpatine. Lucas establishes the Rule of Two in Episode I... Maul was just killed, that leaves one more. "Darth" Jar Jar seems to posit a third Sith as the theory keeps Palpatine as a Sith, which directly contradicts the rule that Lucas just finished telling the audience. In line with Lucas' direct storytelling... all the other examples of mind control were very direct declarations to the recipient "these aren't the droids you're looking for" "you want to go home and rethink your life" "Credits will do fine." I can think of no examples where there were mind tricks through mere presence that the movies acknowledge- this is more akin to the indoctrination theory of the Mass Effect series... which also came out of mass disappointment from the ending, but that one at least had the idea of indoctrination established somewhat in universe. That one gif just made me realize there was more inane stuff going on. http://gfycat.com/EnormousColorfulIbisbill# It goes too fast when actually watching it, but I had no idea the battle had been reduced to fistfights between the Gungans and the Droids... in a battle with tanks and laser guns, it turns into a bar room brawl... If I was GL, I'd establish him in episode 1 as an idiot and in the episode i want to unveil him I'd make him more and more suspicious. Look at Palpatine f.e., we have pretty much zero hints that he's the emperor in episode 1. All we see is an ambitious politician. We know that Sidious doesn't really care for the rule of two thanks to the fact that he killed his master in his sleep. Without the final duel the entire rule of two falls apart. Well if Jar Jar was a Sith Lord, he would be supposed to do mind-tricks without the viewers noting. It should come as a surprise. Jar Jar's gesticulation is extreme, even compared to other Gungans. Also that force persuasion is always obvious isnt true. I just checked the Gungan trial scene and I have no idea how much of the Gungan chief agreeing to Quai Gon is part of force persuasion, Quai Gon seems to try it on every sentence. The Gungan chief however only seems to agree and often gives him things that are bad, or double checks like in Jar Jar's life debt. @double crossing Palpatine: Palpatine's plan in Phantom Menace seems to be to threaten Naboo in order to get Amidala to propose a no-confidence vote for Valorum. Maul is explicitly sent to kill the Jedi (Palpatine makes sure to emphasize that). I'm not sure in what way Amidala signing the treaty or not is helpful for Palpatine. I'm also not sure whether Maul is supposed to win or not. Yeah the background brawling is pretty absurd, nice catch xD | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
Maul killed Qui-Gon, which might have been the point of the whole plan. He was the only one who seemed to see the coming of the Sith. | ||
Manit0u
Poland17048 Posts
Cute drone. Next level practical effects? Imagine if they did all ship scenes in the movies using drones/planes/copters with controllers and hiring a bunch of dudes who're really good at piloting them. | ||
Falling
Canada10923 Posts
On November 24 2015 02:32 Blackfeather wrote: If I was GL, I'd establish him in episode 1 as an idiot and in the episode i want to unveil him I'd make him more and more suspicious. Look at Palpatine f.e., we have pretty much zero hints that he's the emperor in episode 1. All we see is an ambitious politician. We know that Sidious doesn't really care for the rule of two thanks to the fact that he killed his master in his sleep. Without the final duel the entire rule of two falls apart. Well if Jar Jar was a Sith Lord, he would be supposed to do mind-tricks without the viewers noting. It should come as a surprise. Jar Jar's gesticulation is extreme, even compared to other Gungans. Also that force persuasion is always obvious isnt true. I just checked the Gungan trial scene and I have no idea how much of the Gungan chief agreeing to Quai Gon is part of force persuasion, Quai Gon seems to try it on every sentence. The Gungan chief however only seems to agree and often gives him things that are bad, or double checks like in Jar Jar's life debt. Nah. Looking at those clips, it becomes all the more obvious. The hand gesture for force persuasion is rather consistently a left to right or right to left hand swipe on a horizontal axis. Jin 'speed us on our way" "we could use a transport" and "your gods demand his life belongs to me" are all force persuasion attempts... the efficacy is another matter. Whereas Jar Jar's hand gestures of dismissal or speaking are normal hand gestures for an expressive person, but he does not use the deliberate left to right or right to left hand swipes. There is certainly no imperative or suggestion of an imperative in "huh oh" "oh, no, no, no" followed by a shrug and a fainting spell. The theory really relies upon stringing together a handful of normal gestures and ignoring everything else Jar Jar does and is. We know that Sidious doesn't really care for the rule of two thanks to the fact that he killed his master in his sleep. Without the final duel the entire rule of two falls apart. Within the films, we don't actually know anything about the necessity of a duel- all we know is that there is only two. So if that is the evidence that Palpatine has more than one apprentice and that Jar Jar is specifically that additional apprentice... that's a pretty weak set up/ bad foreshadowing. We don't have a lot showing that Palpatine is evil in the first episode... but we do have some interesting scenes that take on more meaning (dramatic irony) once we've watched the other two films. To Anakin "And you young Skywalker, we will watch your career with great interest." And that shot at Jin's cremation lingers deliberately after Yoda and Windu wonder whether the dead Sith was the master or apprentice. That's good use of burying the evidence in plain sight so that it becomes obvious when watching again after the main reveal. Lucas also didn't cheat and use a different actor for Sidious... his face and voice are obscured, but it is at least possible to guess that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same. You also get a sense that Palpatine has plans and wants to get stuff to happen a certain way... Jar Jar? He just woke up one day for a brisky morning munching and bam! He's here, just trying to survive and not die or trip over too many things. | ||
HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On November 30 2015 14:36 Falling wrote: Jar Jar? He just woke up one day for a brisky morning munching and bam! He's here, just trying to survive and not die or trip over too many things. That's such a simplistic view................lol | ||
B.I.G.
3251 Posts
I have to admit that though I would love the theory to be true after watching the phantom menace again I wasn't convinced. | ||
andrewlt
United States7648 Posts
On November 23 2015 23:22 xDaunt wrote: Yep, exactly. Mental masturbation at its finest. James Joyce cured insomnia. I had an assigned reading where the author started the book inside a house. He spent the first two pages describing a room. People would try way too hard to find symbolism in every single piece furniture inside the room. Some people just have way too much fucking time on their hands. Literature class is pretty much just glorified fanfiction and fan theorycrafting. Our descendants will be studying these people's garbage someday. | ||
Falling
Canada10923 Posts
On December 01 2015 02:47 HeatEXTEND wrote: That's such a simplistic view................lol I am literally quoting what Jar Jar said in the movie... or I guess this is the literal quote: "Mesa day startin pretty okee-day with a brisky morning munchy, then BOOM! Gettin very scared and grabbin that Jedi and POW! Mesa here! Mesa gettin’ very very scared!" I guess one final thing we could say to his motivation is by the end on Coruscant, he would indirectly like Naboo freed... but we mostly get his confident declaration of Gungan power. He has to ask whether the humans of Naboo might die and we get very little in the way of planning courses of action from Jar Jar. | ||
Manit0u
Poland17048 Posts
On November 30 2015 14:36 Falling wrote: Within the films, we don't actually know anything about the necessity of a duel- all we know is that there is only two. So if that is the evidence that Palpatine has more than one apprentice and that Jar Jar is specifically that additional apprentice... that's a pretty weak set up/ bad foreshadowing. There is nothing said about the duel. All there is ever said is that there's always 2 and that the usual Sith way of advancement from apprentice to master is killing your master (how the killing is done is not specified). Also, Palpatine definitely had more than one apprentice (Dooku and Maul are obvious but Wookiepedia also lists Garth Ezzar as his apprentice during the Clone Wars period). | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On December 02 2015 22:00 Manit0u wrote: There is nothing said about the duel. All there is ever said is that there's always 2 and that the usual Sith way of advancement from apprentice to master is killing your master (how the killing is done is not specified). Also, Palpatine definitely had more than one apprentice (Dooku and Maul are obvious but Wookiepedia also lists Garth Ezzar as his apprentice during the Clone Wars period). Time for my Garth from Waynes World was a sith youtube video to go viral, because that name is way too close. | ||
Chewbacca.
United States3633 Posts
On December 02 2015 22:00 Manit0u wrote: There is nothing said about the duel. All there is ever said is that there's always 2 and that the usual Sith way of advancement from apprentice to master is killing your master (how the killing is done is not specified). Also, Palpatine definitely had more than one apprentice (Dooku and Maul are obvious but Wookiepedia also lists Garth Ezzar as his apprentice during the Clone Wars period). Dooku replaced Maul, they weren't there at the same time. | ||
| ||