2) The Second Issue: Brood War’s come back At point 1) I wrote about SC2, from point 2) we are gonna discuss the possible competitors. Let’s start we an apparently unbelievable option, which is actually really concrete: one of the strongest Starcraft 2 competitors could be its predecessor! In Korea we can already see a certain approach, Starleague is regularly active, a lot of players leave sc2 and come back to play with their “first love” and often the Team Liquid’s Streaming column show us that Brood War streamings really can defeat Legacy’s ones: a title from 1998 which can compete with a game realeased on last November, pretty impressive. But the fact is that, out of Asia the first sc seems be apreciated only by most nostalgic purist. That’s why it’s hard to imagine a global rebirth of BW. Then we could make another distinction about this option: BW’s reproduction could happen with a new HD graphic too, some time ago an Arcade mod that reproduced BW (called Starbow, if I’m not wrong) had a good success (also with some dedicated tournaments). This choice could cause other problems too, based on the fact that lots of people actually love BW for what it is and for everything it is. And another doubt could just be if it is worth a move to renew SC by recreating an almost 20 yars old game. It is fascinating to me, but could potential “new” players apreciate that?
In my opinion A new Brood War is not totally impossible, but probably doesn’t answer to the necessity of the community (and not even of Blizzard).
i play Broodwar a lot atm, i think i have a very good grasp on it's foreign scene and playerbase, so let me explain a couple of things to you regarding broodwar's playerbase. The average player is not some sort of elitist, nostalgic purist. This game takes a lot of dedication and motivation to get decent in it( even for players who have played bw on a high level before) just being nostalgic wouldn't help.
I'd say the average player appreciates it's strategical depths, taxing macro and micro mechanics and some of the play patterns that are unique to BW and not seen in similar games.
- Starbow didn't reproduce BW and it didnt aim to do so. it came closer to BW in certain gaming aspects, yet the appeal for us to play it isn't the greatest.
- ultimativly, im not sure what you mean by phrases like: "what this community needs" We all want a game we genuinly enjoy and we are happy to invite everybody who wants to give sc:bw a try. If you meant to say "what the community needs" is a game with some big commercial and sponsor interest, no it's not going to be BW or a HD Release of it,simple because esports works on the assumption that the "esport" aspect is going to sell more of your product (be it an old fashioned box, or a skin for your MOBA of choice) and some HD doesn't warrant the necessary sales.
Then again, i don't think this community "needs" a game that is going to be the next big esport thing.
- I'm not a starbow expert, but I meant that there was a period in which lots of people enjoyed it, especially because it recalled the first starcraft in a certain way.
- This is not very easy to explain: When I played SC2 (and the same with AoE and other leggendary games that will alwaysremain beautiful memories of my life) in the wol period/first hots period it was just an emotion, it just had something really special for me. And, I mean, now I have this feeling no more. The game seems to be less fascinating and more stressing..."I don't feel it". So I think that we could need a refreshing chapter in sc's history. Also the Totalbiscuit's twit expresses a similar disappoint. I don't wanna say that LotV is a bad game, I only think that now sc doesn't have the magic that made me become a big fan. Probably if you think I could wish a big "commercial" game is because I also love the e-sport dimension and, you know, without an audience it will just disappear (Blizzard is not a beneficence organization...). We often have to consider also money problems, that's why brood war often seem an elite of "nostalgic purists": nostalgic 'cause they play a kind of vintage game and purists because they just do this for their passion without considering money/audience/sponsors and this is really well played.
Well, yes we learned to get along after the commercial interest wayned, that's a task that the Sc2 scene has to face soon as well btw. Of course it's about the game for most of us, there's not enough sponsor interest anymore, but the game is still fun as it always has been. Of course we would all it, if it had more attention, but what can you do. We still have Korea, Flash's Stream having more viewers and the tours we host ourselves and find small sponsorship for, like the TLS or the National League
On March 01 2016 15:09 lestye wrote: It's been minor for a reason. They dont want to knee jerk nerf/buff something, when the community/pros can take time to figure out if it is super OP or not. It's how a metagame develops. There were times when during Brood War, people thought the game was solved and a certain race is underpowered or overpowered...until someone figures out that's not the case. That has been the case in SC2 for quite some time. Some times they were way too conservative and took WAAAAY too long to balance shit. But thats their M.O.
.....
Basically I think you're misconstruing lack of balance changes = they dont give a shit, when their weekly feedback threads clearly expresses their intention. They're being conservative because of the competitive scene, because they want to nerf/buff things in a good way that positively affects all match ups. Because it doesnt help anyone if you nerf X unit to make PvZ more balanced, but then TvP becomes even MORE imbalanced because you didnt consider the ramifications.
It's more than balance changes, it's a load of issues.
Their weekly feedback changes turned from actual communication to PR last summer. Further than not many balance changes, they have put very little development effort at all. The features they mentioned in the "Future of StarCraft" at Blizzcon got pushed back until after the Nova mission packs, which is prioritizing missions over the multiplayer issues of the game, and them wanting to be paid again before delivering what they said they would.
It's also the fact that the LotV release date was pushed UP when the game needed more dev time. They rushed it out by Blizzcon when even the official Blizzard store page said it was to be released in March 2016.
Their solutions are tweaks to things people are complaining about at the time, rather than decisions made to repair the overall design and make sure the issues are fixed for good. For example, medivac tank drops have been debated lately even on their end. These mechanics shouldnt be implemented "because they sound cool" or "to give them mobility". It should have an overall design reason that meshes with the race! It should be part of the race for a specific reason, it should have its place in the synergy with other units, and other units should have synergy with it, it's timings should be specific for a reason, etc. But it's really not, and the fact that they are debating if they shohuld keep it or not, shows that they don't really have a solid design direction to back it up. Whether to keep it or not should be a simple decision based upon their design goals. Do they even have any design goals? Look thru the design posts on this site and you can find dozens examples of unclear design.
None of that is fixed. Very few if any new players are being encouraged to play the game. The developments not focused on growth and is rather focused on minimizing losses. Their content their giving us is for a quick cash grab from vs CPU players when multiplayers suffering.
Regarding your last paragraph, if they really were worried about any of that, half of the changes LotV made shouldn't have been made, and if they were going to do changes like that, then they shouldnt have pushed up the release date to where they didn't have time to sufficiently balance the game around those changes. They reverted changes they were working on for longer than 3 months, and made major balance changes under a month and a half before release, and the beta wasn't even up for 1/3 that time. The metagame didnt even settle after their changes and they deemed the game as "release ready".
Can you even look at the final beta patches and say there wasn't any "knee jerk nerfs or buffs"?? Can you really say the competitive scene is happy with the way they have been handling LotV? Can you say they are really keeping their old fans happy, or new players happy?
The only player base I see that is actually happy are the ones looking forward to the Nova mission pack, and that's only one person I know. In general, people don't even really care about SC2 anymore. Even though my friends didnt play they still followed the pro scene for many years, and now they even gave up on that.
For the last few years I've basically watched a game series I love get turned to shit. Seen some potential improvement last summer during beta for the first time in years, invested in the game again, and then they switched it up and turned the game in to something different. I've seen public reception as well as pro reception plummet. And I've gotten upset that it hasn't gotten the treatment that EVERY other Blizzard game has gotten when it was down. They have repaired and resolved issues with every other one of their series', and SC2 needs that treatment VERY badly right now, and they aren't giving it. Their development is in areas that aren't even the main focus of the game - SC2 at it's core is known for it's multilplayer, and multiplayer is taking a back seat to mission development. They push back multiplayer features until their priorities of single player content are completed. I've seen the design because more convoluted and lack direction more than ever. I've seen one of the lead designers specifically state that they intentionally chose inferior design for PR reasons. Their priorities are screwed. The designers offer us more PR than actual design work. They blame us in the community for all of their failings.
I could even go on further, but there's no need. The point is, there's dozens of reasons why I'm upset, and why the community in general is upset with the game, or has decided to completely disregard the game. Their development on the game is appalling. I would not feel right recommending this game to any of my friends in the current state. Even if I had a friend who ONLY enjoyed RTS games, I would not recommend this game right now. My only feelings I've had with SC2 since last summer have been frustration with the development team, frustration with the changes they say their going to do and decide not to, and upset at the changes they actually decide to put live that the majority of the player base don't even want. I don't really have anything good to say about the game or the design team in its current state. If their okay with the games reception suffering as well as the competitive scene in decline, who am I to argue? Just go according to plan and spend developers time on Mission packs, because that will make everything all better, right?
.... That date is what they ALWAYS give as a CONSERVATIVE estimate since they're TAKING MONEY. I highly doubt they rushed it out just to compete with the biggest game of the year, Fallout 4.
How can you even say the features they promised in the "Future of Starcraft" was pushed back when they said at the event it was shit they had on the horizon/in the future?
There's a reason why shit like tank medivacs isn't fixed...it's because the community is split. You're pointing at it saying "WHY ISNT THIS FIXED? IT DOESNT MESH WITH THE RACE!!!" when half the community doesnt see anything to be fixed because it adds interesting gameplay and WANT to keep it in. By snipping that part of the game and taking it away, that's not necessarily a fix in a lot of people's eyes. That's why they're conservative with those changes.
You're being really outrageous by overexaggerating any perceived problems with multiplayer atm.
You're acting as if every pro on the planet is making the consensus that its the worst iteration of Starcraft, when that couldnt be further from the truth. The game isn't in a dystopia imbalance and design.
I'm very confused where you're coming from saying it needs it BADLY. We know they're playing with an idea on how to balance stuff, but they're being very conservative not wanting to rush out changes. It's not a thing where they don't want to balance RIGHT NOW because every one is working on the map packs. and they're saying "fuck multiplayer"..its that they're not sure what the best path is to balance. You even said yourself it wouldnt take that long in the editor to implement the changes.
Their dates have not been conservative for the wow expansion or over watch. Also they did many other actions around the time of release date that made it suspicious. For 3 weeks straight in community updates they said they were happy with the direction, they felt it was the best choice, went on about pros agreeing. Then when it becomes clear they will also need to rebalance unit cost, on the same week the "release date announcement date" announcement they say their going to revert (effectively giving up months of beta work, ignoring polls stating overwhelming support, and bait and switching players like myself who preordered for access when they stated they were moving forward with the direction they been going.
If I'm so wrong, can you name a single time in sc2s life that it was doing worse than this? Even in the infamous end of WoL days it was way better off. And we are under 6 months in an expansion, there should still be a surge. But there's not.
First off, "soon" is a meme. If you bought into soon, that's on you. Secondly, after re-watching that panel, they dont seem to imply or infer it's coming "soon". They were saying their FUTURE plans http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19954442/starcraft-ii-the-future-of-starcraft-panel-recap-11-6-2015 . I don't consider any of those "misleading marketing" until at least 2017 if nothing's delivered because they seem to imply that those plans are for the 2016 calendar year. They're not going to drop stuff during Christmas vacation.
ummm, they said that the legion expansion is coming out this summer after the wow movie, and the conservative release date is September 21, 2016...
Overwatch is 6/21/2016. My guess thats going to be a lot closer than Legion or SC2's was. ( The game needs work still and I dont think they want it close together with Legion so who knows?)
And once again, you're extremely exaggerating the state of the game right now. Who do you see complaining it's in such a terrible state? This is NOTHING compared to this embarrassment:
When games look like, then I say we're in crisis. Ty showed us how awesome meditanks are and how great they can be. And like Brood War has shown us, sometimes unintended consequences of the design can be great for gameplay. That's why there's the divide in the community.
They're making those decisions based on their design and what works for the balance of the game and how fun it is. What is so hard to get? You're acting as if theres a consensus when its just you complaining about vague shit. It's not inferior design if its practical for the game and it adds to the gameplay.
On March 02 2016 06:00 Spyridon wrote: About future of Starcraft, they stated they'd add it to lotv soon after release, and then a month or so back switched it up to being pushed after mission packs release. It's misleading us in order to support their marketing. No way I'm paying them more when they didn't even deliver what they promised on my last purchase.
#1 Remember Blizzard's name.. .its chaos.. its confusing ...its a Blizzard of activity... that's how they make their games. Its why they have this brand. and Blizz is open about it. SC1's crazy development history is well chronicled. If you've ever developed software youself... don't expect the creation and development of amazing software to be like running an accounting office.
some confusing and seemingly contradictory things happens and you cry "fraud". whatever man. you want to see what real fraud is? check out Aliens Colonial Marines. Now that was fraud.
you think they care about your lousy $15 for Nova:Covert Ops? there is not enough cash in the marketplace to motivate a giant like ATVI or Blizzard to lie for a few measly scraps of cash. its irrational.
Blizzard also did not keep every little promise every 2-bit, peanut-head employee made at every BlizzCOn in the 4 year build up to Diablo 3. Taken all things into account .. the good and bad.. the successes and failures... Diablo3 has kicked some major ass and Blizzard has done a great job. I put Sc2 in that same category with different sales #s due to being a different genre.
LotV is $40... go get urself a copy of GG, AoA, or HW:DoK and you'll see its no contest. LotV is fucking awesome for $40. fucking awesome.
to answer your points directly: they added a co-op commander, the protoss skin of the colossus and some other stuff.
On February 29 2016 02:19 HoZBlooddrop wrote: ho letto il thread anche sul forum di bnet, bellissima iniziativa!
anyway i think that lotv is much better than lotv but it might be a bit late and it didint fix some of the structural problems of sc2
Sono contento che tu abbia apprezzato. Grazie per aver preso parte.
On February 29 2016 14:48 Demosthenes13 wrote: As an Italian American I would like to say you did a great job translating, Thanks for the good read!
Thanks a lot ^^ And thank you everybody for this discussion, I see that people really care about these issues like me or even more.
On March 02 2016 02:44 Cele wrote:
On February 27 2016 22:40 mammuluk wrote:
2) The Second Issue: Brood War’s come back At point 1) I wrote about SC2, from point 2) we are gonna discuss the possible competitors. Let’s start we an apparently unbelievable option, which is actually really concrete: one of the strongest Starcraft 2 competitors could be its predecessor! In Korea we can already see a certain approach, Starleague is regularly active, a lot of players leave sc2 and come back to play with their “first love” and often the Team Liquid’s Streaming column show us that Brood War streamings really can defeat Legacy’s ones: a title from 1998 which can compete with a game realeased on last November, pretty impressive. But the fact is that, out of Asia the first sc seems be apreciated only by most nostalgic purist. That’s why it’s hard to imagine a global rebirth of BW. Then we could make another distinction about this option: BW’s reproduction could happen with a new HD graphic too, some time ago an Arcade mod that reproduced BW (called Starbow, if I’m not wrong) had a good success (also with some dedicated tournaments). This choice could cause other problems too, based on the fact that lots of people actually love BW for what it is and for everything it is. And another doubt could just be if it is worth a move to renew SC by recreating an almost 20 yars old game. It is fascinating to me, but could potential “new” players apreciate that?
In my opinion A new Brood War is not totally impossible, but probably doesn’t answer to the necessity of the community (and not even of Blizzard).
i play Broodwar a lot atm, i think i have a very good grasp on it's foreign scene and playerbase, so let me explain a couple of things to you regarding broodwar's playerbase. The average player is not some sort of elitist, nostalgic purist. This game takes a lot of dedication and motivation to get decent in it( even for players who have played bw on a high level before) just being nostalgic wouldn't help.
I'd say the average player appreciates it's strategical depths, taxing macro and micro mechanics and some of the play patterns that are unique to BW and not seen in similar games.
- Starbow didn't reproduce BW and it didnt aim to do so. it came closer to BW in certain gaming aspects, yet the appeal for us to play it isn't the greatest.
- ultimativly, im not sure what you mean by phrases like: "what this community needs" We all want a game we genuinly enjoy and we are happy to invite everybody who wants to give sc:bw a try. If you meant to say "what the community needs" is a game with some big commercial and sponsor interest, no it's not going to be BW or a HD Release of it,simple because esports works on the assumption that the "esport" aspect is going to sell more of your product (be it an old fashioned box, or a skin for your MOBA of choice) and some HD doesn't warrant the necessary sales.
Then again, i don't think this community "needs" a game that is going to be the next big esport thing.
- I'm not a starbow expert, but I meant that there was a period in which lots of people enjoyed it, especially because it recalled the first starcraft in a certain way.
- This is not very easy to explain: When I played SC2 (and the same with AoE and other leggendary games that will alwaysremain beautiful memories of my life) in the wol period/first hots period it was just an emotion, it just had something really special for me. And, I mean, now I have this feeling no more. The game seems to be less fascinating and more stressing..."I don't feel it". So I think that we could need a refreshing chapter in sc's history. Also the Totalbiscuit's twit expresses a similar disappoint. I don't wanna say that LotV is a bad game, I only think that now sc doesn't have the magic that made me become a big fan. Probably if you think I could wish a big "commercial" game is because I also love the e-sport dimension and, you know, without an audience it will just disappear (Blizzard is not a beneficence organization...). We often have to consider also money problems, that's why brood war often seem an elite of "nostalgic purists": nostalgic 'cause they play a kind of vintage game and purists because they just do this for their passion without considering money/audience/sponsors and this is really well played.
Well, yes we learned to get along after the commercial interest wayned, that's a task that the Sc2 scene has to face soon as well btw. Of course it's about the game for most of us, there's not enough sponsor interest anymore, but the game is still fun as it always has been. Of course we would all it, if it had more attention, but what can you do. We still have Korea, Flash's Stream having more viewers and the tours we host ourselves and find small sponsorship for, like the TLS or the National League
RESPECT I watch flash's streamings too, very nice stuff and I'm also waiting for the nations tournament. It's good to see people who play an old and imitable game. And, as I said there is a come back, which is actually a growth compared to the last years...
On February 28 2016 02:37 boxerfred wrote: Shortly said:
- SC2: LotV is a rather bad game and did not deal with issues that were raised by the community long time ago (eg. economy) - WCS is a joke and actively fucks the Korean scene
Sc2 will be a niche esports and that's it.
My thoughts exactly. Niche esports as long as Blizz support it monetarily.
On March 02 2016 06:55 lestye wrote: First off, "soon" is a meme. If you bought into soon, that's on you. Secondly, after re-watching that panel, they dont seem to imply or infer it's coming "soon". They were saying their FUTURE plans http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19954442/starcraft-ii-the-future-of-starcraft-panel-recap-11-6-2015 . I don't consider any of those "misleading marketing" until at least 2017 if nothing's delivered because they seem to imply that those plans are for the 2016 calendar year. They're not going to drop stuff during Christmas vacation.
ummm, they said that the legion expansion is coming out this summer after the wow movie, and the conservative release date is September 21, 2016...
Overwatch is 6/21/2016. My guess thats going to be a lot closer than Legion or SC2's was. ( The game needs work still and I dont think they want it close together with Legion so who knows?)
And once again, you're extremely exaggerating the state of the game right now. Who do you see complaining it's in such a terrible state? This is NOTHING compared to this embarrassment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr0DlhTVkec
When games look like, then I say we're in crisis. Ty showed us how awesome meditanks are and how great they can be. And like Brood War has shown us, sometimes unintended consequences of the design can be great for gameplay. That's why there's the divide in the community.
They're making those decisions based on their design and what works for the balance of the game and how fun it is. What is so hard to get? You're acting as if theres a consensus when its just you complaining about vague shit. It's not inferior design if its practical for the game and it adds to the gameplay.
I was typing on my phone on lunch break, so apologies if I wasn't as descriptive as possible. I already had the game purchased before they said their statements at Blizzcon. The way it stands for me though, is simply that they are hoping to make more money from us before they deliver what they said was going to be a part of the LotV package. No way in hell am I even going to consider giving them another cent before they deliver.
If I'm exaggering the state of the game, name one other time that SC2 was worse off than it is right now?
Just becuase someone can do nice plays with meditanks doesn't mean much. It's about a elegant cohesive design. The game doesn't have that. I've said many times, the micro of the game can be fun at times, the combat mechanics are very nice. But the design issues and lack of strategy are the major problems. It's not about "unit design" for specific units, or even unit combos like medivacs and tanks. It's about how it fits in to the overall game and racial dynamics.
They made it clear in their most recent community update that they aren't even sure if they want to split tech paths again or not. Their simply trying to find a short-term solution for their problem. But any changes, when it comes to tech paths, unit abilities, etc, they need to be factored in with the design as a whole.
If Terran was balanced around meditanks, the other units either were supported by meditanks or were designed to support meditanks, the races mobility was based around that, the races zone control was based around that, the defensive and offensive aspects of Terran was based around that, then it would be an easy question for them to answer - We should keep meditanks in to support the design of Terran.
But they don't even have that! It's a hard decision for them to make, because there is no goal or vision that they are trying to attain! What are they trying to attain? Their trying to minimize complaints. That's the major issue here! Their doing changes without any vision! That's a huge no-no in both game development, and software development.
You said their making changes based on their design, they really aren't. Look at all the complaints about mechs viability - that's a lack of cohesiveness in design. Look at them debating in their own community updates if Mech should have its own path or support Bio - that's a lack of cohesiveness in design.
I've gave dozens of examples at this point of how many of their changes does not enhance gameplay and rather hurts it. I even gave many in the context of SC1 vs SC2 where they were downgrades and integral aspects of the game that were enjoyed and necessary for the fun factor were removed. Those are your examples of inferior design. You can act like all LotV's changes were well-received, but in reality, how many changes in LotV can you list that actually WERE well recieved?
I'm expressing my feelings, and my observations of the community. If theres a consensus that's up to others, not me. But from what I'm looking at, it seems like statistics speak for themselves. Outside of Korea the game is not doing well. In Korea more people than ever are returning to BW, and not even to make money. Community morale is at an all time low. There's less strategic posts than ever, which indicates both loss of interest as well as lack of strategy. Less streamers and youtube personalities cover the game than ever, with more of them expressing discontent than ever. Stream numbers are plummeting, while BW stream numbers are going up.
Once again, if this isn't true, feel free to show me any other point and time where SC2 was worse off than it is now.
On March 02 2016 06:00 Spyridon wrote: About future of Starcraft, they stated they'd add it to lotv soon after release, and then a month or so back switched it up to being pushed after mission packs release. It's misleading us in order to support their marketing. No way I'm paying them more when they didn't even deliver what they promised on my last purchase.
#1 Remember Blizzard's name.. .its chaos.. its confusing ...its a Blizzard of activity... that's how they make their games. Its why they have this brand. and Blizz is open about it. SC1's crazy development history is well chronicled. If you've ever developed software youself... don't expect the creation and development of amazing software to be like running an accounting office.
some confusing and seemingly contradictory things happens and you cry "fraud". whatever man. you want to see what real fraud is? check out Aliens Colonial Marines. Now that was fraud.
you think they care about your lousy $15 for Nova:Covert Ops? there is not enough cash in the marketplace to motivate a giant like ATVI or Blizzard to lie for a few measly scraps of cash. its irrational.
Blizzard also did not keep every little promise every 2-bit, peanut-head employee made at every BlizzCOn in the 4 year build up to Diablo 3. Taken all things into account .. the good and bad.. the successes and failures... Diablo3 has kicked some major ass and Blizzard has done a great job. I put Sc2 in that same category with different sales #s due to being a different genre.
LotV is $40... go get urself a copy of GG, AoA, or HW:DoK and you'll see its no contest. LotV is fucking awesome for $40. fucking awesome.
to answer your points directly: they added a co-op commander, the protoss skin of the colossus and some other stuff.
I'm not crying fraud, it's just something I do not expect from Blizzard as a company. This is not the same Blizzard I grew up with. Even for ActiBlizzard, how their handling LotV is out of the ordinary. The old Blizzard would have never released a game in the state LotV was released in, tehy would have delayed, that was their motto. Even ActiBlizzard would act different, if they release a game in a shitty state (like D3) they take extreme measures and do what ever it takes to pull the game out of decline.
The way I feel my money was a waste more-so was due to their switch of direction in beta. I followed the game intently during beta and really liked waht I seen. I waited until they announced that they felt their decision was the right decision so they were going to move forward, and that pros agreed. I pre-ordered based on that. I played the beta and completely loved it - SC2 never felt so good. Then after the non-refundable pre order, they decided to revert everything and release earlier than announced.
And yeah, people can argue their dates are arbitrary and not exact. That does not change the fact that they specifically said LotV was going to receive different treatment and was going to be "far longer" than any other of their betas, and it was the exact length of HotS beta in the end. You can argue the other facts, but this shows without a doubt that they released the game earlier than they planned to. And that is not something Blizzard has ever been known to do!
you think they care about your lousy $15 for Nova:Covert Ops? there is not enough cash in the marketplace to motivate a giant like ATVI or Blizzard to lie for a few measly scraps of cash. its irrational.
This actually did make me laugh. Really... a big company like Activision or blizzard would not lie for cash??? As if it has never happened?
And yes, I do think they care about $15. Why would they even be releasing it if they didnt???
Diablo3 has kicked some major ass and Blizzard has done a great job. I put Sc2 in that same category with different sales #s due to being a different genre.
I completely agree. They did a great turn around for D3.
Don't u see that's part of what's bothering me? SC2 could use the same treatment! That showed that they have teh capabilities of doing it, they just need to stop being stubborn and actually take a good look at their design just like they did with D3, and maybe make some hard decisions like how they had to with the removal of the AH, taking some major steps to turn things around.
I don't put SC2 in the same category for that reason. D3 has improved significantly, without any argument. They completely went to the drawing board and repaired all the major issues. SC2 they have NOT done that!
If you've ever developed software youself... don't expect the creation and development of amazing software to be like running an accounting office.
I know the environment of software development, as well as game development.
If you have any experience in software or game development, then you should know exactly how important design is.You don't make changes unless it backs up the overall design. No change should be decided on without forming its place in the rest of the design. There's so many examples of them not following these rules.
What happens when you don't follow a specific design in long term projects? Spahgetti code for one, but even more important, without a clear vision of exactly what you want the end-goal to be, it starts to limit ur options further down the road. How many projects have u seen that start veering off for things that were not their intended purpose, and then the only way to actually improve on the application is to start over from scratch? The design needs to be solid, cohesive, and intentional. You need to be building a strong foundation, building from the bottom up, or else without a solid foundation everything else will come crashing down.
They haven't been doing that. Even their own explanations of changes are short-term.
You should also know how dangerous it is to let feedback control the design of the software. Feedback is to be used to determine if the design goals were accomplished by changes, not to actually CONTROL the design. Sometimes its EXPECTED that at certain phases of development the feedback will be bad, but if it's a step towards a vision that will be well-received, that's a good thing.
I wrote an in depth post about exact examples of this at my work place awhile back - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/503104-david-kims-response-on-community-feedback?page=17#336 - I explain in great detail their mis-steps and failures in typical software design principles that also apply to game deevelopment, and why it's such a huge problem. As long as they don't have a clear vision of where they are going to bring the game in the future, it's going to keep causing more and more problems as well...
I like how you glossed over my example on when the game was much worse. The Terran ridiculousness, the gold base mules, swarm hosts, mothership/archon toilet, infestor eras were much much worse than the game is now, and weren't fixed for months and months.
The examples you're talking about are elegant in their own ways. You're not appreciating the actual gameplay that comes out of the game and the dynamics that go with it.
I'll concede that terran mech is the weakest part of the game overall, that's something that needs to be fleshed out, and its probably figuring out the tanks' role in relation to that, actually matters. I think if you actually read their balance reports, you'd understand their perspective and "vision" of what they're aiming for for the tank.
The changes of the gameplay was very well received. I'm really stunned where you're coming from these wild ideas. We've suffered through much darker times. The morale of the game was way worse during swarm host era, and probably a year before LOTV hit.
In summary, I do think Terran mech's "design" and role is weak overall, but I think the game overall is still fantastic and way better than Heart of the Swarm/WoL. There's no one flocking and praising the design of HOTS and WOL balance as if it was far superior and better "designed" than LOTV. It's an across-the-board improvment, albeit not perfect.
On March 02 2016 09:59 lestye wrote: I like how you glossed over my example on when the game was much worse. The Terran ridiculousness, the gold base mules, swarm hosts, mothership/archon toilet, infestor eras were much much worse than the game is now, and weren't fixed for months and months.
The examples you're talking about are elegant in their own ways. You're not appreciating the actual gameplay that comes out of the game and the dynamics that go with it.
I'll concede that terran mech is the weakest part of the game overall, that's something that needs to be fleshed out, and its probably figuring out the tanks' role in relation to that, actually matters. I think if you actually read their balance reports, you'd understand their perspective and "vision" of what they're aiming for for the tank.
The changes of the gameplay was very well received. I'm really stunned where you're coming from these wild ideas. We've suffered through much darker times. The morale of the game was way worse during swarm host era, and probably a year before LOTV hit.
In summary, I do think Terran mech's "design" and role is weak overall, but I think the game overall is still fantastic and way better than Heart of the Swarm/WoL. There's no one flocking and praising the design of HOTS and WOL balance as if it was far superior and better "designed" than LOTV. It's an across-the-board improvment, albeit not perfect.
At those times you mention, there was still much more hope behind the game, a stronger pro scene, stronger community, stronger following in korea, and in general much more positivity with something to look forward to.
LotV changes well received? Everything was a huge debacle. From every single one of the new units, to the rebalance of existing units (tankivacs, ultras, warp prism), to the half minerals per base and the economy, to the much stronger harass from the new economy. Basically ever major change was questionable.
You said you dont see people praising hots or wol? You see people say all the time on here that WoL was better designed, and how things like muta/ling/bling vs terran battles were the high point of SC2.
Elegant in their own ways? To be elegant they must serve a bigger purpose efficiently, simply, and in an easy to understand way. How elegant can you be without a goal your working towards? What purpose did drop ships in 3 minutes serve other than removing the early game ground battle phases? Look how these changes mesh together... faster starting economy, faster scaling economy, and macro mechanics... how is that supposed to mesh together with early drop ships? We lost many phases of the game and many strategic timings, what did we get in it's place?
They even stated that the economy was too fast and intended on slowing things down, spent months on it in beta, and then by their own words reverted because of "negative perception in some members of the community". Community was 80% for the removal. Would you say that is "well received"?
Tell me honestly, do you think that was an elegant change when they did that? Was it for the best of the game? Was it to give us the best design?
Let me show you something regarding that...
After many discussions, we realized that, at the root of it, it boils down to this: Are we chasing the best design for each of these mechanics or is taking away a skill that players have been practicing for years better for the game in the long-term?
This was prior to the revert of macro mechanics. They directly gave us an example telling us the situation where the best design was at question. They voluntarily decided against the design because of "negative perception".
This shows more than anything that they have failed us as designers. The lead designers voted AGAINST a choice they felt was the better design, due to negative perception.
The reason anyone would defend designers who intentionally do not give us the best damn design their capable of, is beyond me....
On March 02 2016 17:20 deacon.frost wrote: @Spyridon - where do you have numbers for Community was 80% for the removal.? Thanks!
That was from the public polls that were being taken at the time, on here as well as reddit. I'm at work atm, but if you search around the date of last september it should be easy to find. There was some debate in the post about sample size, and ppl basically agreed 1000 votes would be enough, and the poll reached 1000 votes fluxuating between 81-79% for full removal of MM.
Was quite a few posts on here referring to it, because Blizz used the old "Based on your feedback" reasoning for their argument... and the feedback was quite the opposite direction from what they claim (as usual).
ATVI isn't going to risk its reputation and engage in dishonest shenanigans for a $15 item being offered to an extremely small community. They've got bigger fish to fry.
it'd be like me getting into a brawl with an old lady over $1. Would i like a free dollar? sure i would. i'm not going to knock the false teeth out of an old lady's head to get it though. it is irrational. now if this theoretical old lady had $2,000,000 on her. now that is a different convo entirely.
is LotV worth the $40? the lengthy beta , Archon Mode, Automated TOurnaments ( 4 time champ here!) , all the changes to the game, the giant single player campaign including prologue and epilogue , the awesome cinematics... the ladder.. automatch... add it all up and no other RTS game has come close to providing this much AAA level cool stuff for $40
On March 02 2016 17:20 deacon.frost wrote: @Spyridon - where do you have numbers for Community was 80% for the removal.? Thanks!
That was from the public polls that were being taken at the time, on here as well as reddit. I'm at work atm, but if you search around the date of last september it should be easy to find. There was some debate in the post about sample size, and ppl basically agreed 1000 votes would be enough, and the poll reached 1000 votes fluxuating between 81-79% for full removal of MM.
Was quite a few posts on here referring to it, because Blizz used the old "Based on your feedback" reasoning for their argument... and the feedback was quite the opposite direction from what they claim (as usual).
Thanks. _______________
Honestly, I think this discussion is pointless.
If you want to see the future you need to look at the history. This game was developed like the next eSport thing. It wasn't supposed to be played by mortal beings like me, it was designed to be played by gods among us. And that's the root of the evil.
And the second big hit came with LotV when they started using phrases with the word spectator too often.
So now we have a game that is designed to be played by the best and to be watched by the rest. And be honest guys, the game accomplished all this. It's really nice to see what the best can do with those units, it's pleasure to watch such games. But it's pain in the ass to play against that. Is stalker-disruptor wars nice to watch? So far it's really good, it creates tense moments and stuff. Is it fun to play? Well, it's not. Even some pros said that it's frustrating to play it.
I may be the old grumpy man, but game should be developed to be played by the biggest crowd. And that's where SC2 completely failed. Look at the campaign, that's a game that screams play me. I may suck at the game, but if the game is enjoyable then who cares? And campaign was enjoyable, why is ladder so much different?
Do you guys remember WoL? Winrate was welcoming you(hey, I suck, I have 25 % win rate, it's nice to see the next time I get better 20 % now!). Big play button on ladder. Causals were not even considered! Custom games was a big fail, no arcade.
And you cannot change roots, this game needs redesign. One big redesign. And that's not gonna happen. So enjoy whatever you like about SC2 as long as you have it(be it WCS, GSL or whatever).
My crystal ball says the SC2 future is dark.
P.S. I wouldn't drag BW into the discussion. This is problem of SC2 and BW has nothing to do with it. SC2 isn't competing with BW. SC2 is competing with its own player base.
On March 03 2016 01:52 deacon.frost wrote: If you want to see the future you need to look at the history. This game was developed like the next eSport thing. It wasn't supposed to be played by mortal beings like me, it was designed to be played by gods among us. And that's the root of the evil.
Morhaime's press release on July 27th, 2010 was the game is made for "players of all skill levels". my bronze and silver friends like the game a helluva lot more than the very highly skilled chronic complainers on TL.Net. I play 2v1s against them and we have fun. I've played in every league from Silver to Diamond and had lots of fun.
During WoL development Browder talked about how hard the 6 pool was to stop by Terrans in Brood War relative to the skill level required to execute the 6 pool. in Brood War I recall putting 2 SCVs on a ramp in hold position, hanging a building over the 2 SCVs and using 1+ marines to pick off the zerlings. The 6 pool is a lot easier to defend in WoL, HotS ,and LotV... however, amongst low skill players the 6 pool was a thing... it was tough to defend in Brood War. This is just 1 of 1000 examples of how the game is made for every one.
The game is/was made for players of all levels as uncle Morhaime stated many years ago.
On March 03 2016 02:39 lestye wrote: Defending a 6 pool is MUCH easier in LOTV, at the same time, Jimmy, executing a 6pool is harder than it ever was in BW.
i think Browder's point was that execution of offense and then defending that offense should require equal skill levels. upon further reflection i'd say the 6 pool offense is no longer viable
On March 03 2016 02:39 lestye wrote: Defending a 6 pool is MUCH easier in LOTV, at the same time, Jimmy, executing a 6pool is harder than it ever was in BW.
i think Browder's point was that execution of offense and then defending that offense should require equal skill levels. upon further reflection i'd say the 6 pool offense is no longer viable
I was joking. 6 pool is really hard to do in LOTV when you start with 12 drones.
On March 03 2016 01:34 JimmyJRaynor wrote: is LotV worth the $40? the lengthy beta , Archon Mode, Automated TOurnaments ( 4 time champ here!) , all the changes to the game, the giant single player campaign including prologue and epilogue , the awesome cinematics... the ladder.. automatch... add it all up and no other RTS game has come close to providing this much AAA level cool stuff for $40
On March 03 2016 01:52 deacon.frost wrote: If you want to see the future you need to look at the history. This game was developed like the next eSport thing. It wasn't supposed to be played by mortal beings like me, it was designed to be played by gods among us. And that's the root of the evil.
Morhaime's press release on July 27th, 2010 was the game is made for "players of all skill levels". my bronze and silver friends like the game a helluva lot more than the very highly skilled chronic complainers on TL.Net. I play 2v1s against them and we have fun. I've played in every league from Silver to Diamond and had lots of fun.
During WoL development Browder talked about how hard the 6 pool was to stop by Terrans in Brood War relative to the skill level required to execute the 6 pool. in Brood War I recall putting 2 SCVs on a ramp in hold position, hanging a building over the 2 SCVs and using 1+ marines to pick off the zerlings. The 6 pool is a lot easier to defend in WoL, HotS ,and LotV... however, amongst low skill players the 6 pool was a thing... it was tough to defend in Brood War. This is just 1 of 1000 examples of how the game is made for every one.
The game is/was made for players of all levels as uncle Morhaime stated many years ago.
Was the game worth it for me? The most fun out of it was teh campaign. The rest was very disappointing and not very fun. The beta for the months it was fun was far more enjoyable than the actual release for me.
Morhaime may have said that then, but press releases are publicity anyway so of course he would say that (even the most complex games do).
Keep in mind much of that changed. LotV one of their specific goals they gave us was to make the game harder for top players, and in exchange they were looking in to removing MM for newer players... That was scrapped. So in the end it's harder for new players than it was before.
Also look at the general consensus, even experienced SC2 players say the games too fast for them to keep up now! I don't have issues keeping up personally, but a lot of the phases I enjoyed most are gone now.
Do you think the general public feels the game is "made for players of all skill levels to enjoy"? Do you think most new players, or casual players, actually do enjoy it? I see far, FAR more complaints of people wishing they enjoyed it but can't, than I do of people actually enjoying it.
It's pretty awesome that you have friends in Bronze-Silver league to play with. Not being sarcastic either, I mean it. I've tried and can't get a SINGLE person to play with me. I have a very large group of gamer friends as well. I've lived in NY, Fla, and Cali, all 3 places I have groups of gamer friends. Absoultely none will play SC2. Only one of them even purchased LotV and that was solely for campaign. He tried coop a few times and felt it was more of the same.
All of those groups played WoL. HotS a small portion of them played. LotV... absolutely noone but me.
I also have many online communties I'm in. I'm in a few large Discord servers for various MMO's, Rocket League channels, fighting game channels, even the Atlas channel for their test weekend this weekend. Hundreds of people throughout the channels (some have hundreds PER channel)... only 1 person playing SC2 right now.
I even work at a korean owned business for the last 2 years. Only 3 of us are not korean, many even here on J1 visa's (so have not even been out of Korea for 1 year). One of them only been here 1 month. None of them will even play SC2. Straight refusal. Other games... Sure their down to play. Not SC2 specifically. Even BW is okay. Not SC2. The game is not doing well in Korea these days even.
If I had your personal experience with newer players I might feel like you, but my personal experience has been drastically different. The few people I could even get to play the game do not have fun at all, don't feel it's user friendly, don't feel its fun, and feel like LotV made the problems worse and even less user friendly.
Plus even Blizzard admit the issue of things moving too fast. They were going to make changes in beta around it. But then they reverted it, NOT BECAUSE their stance on it changed, they even said no MM was better design, their specific reason they gave was because of people complaining causing a negative perception, so it's not even as user friendly or as well designed as they intended it to be.
If your friends in silver/bronze striaght up told you the games not fun for them and not user firendly, and you couldn't find anyone who even has fun on the game to play with you, and all of my other personal experiences, would you feel the same way as you do now?
I mean we can take one of the developers quotes about whos intended to enjoy the game. But someone whos actually in that position can provide much better feedback than a man whos invested in to the game.