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On July 01 2016 18:34 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: where are these numbers from? Tracking games on streams or is there like Fish ladder statistics? You can get them from Ygosu. These games are purely sponsored games. Non of the pros take ladders seriously.
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On July 01 2016 14:52 Bakuryu wrote: fs is not imba and zerg players are just bad, end of story.
i don't even get how you are saying this. its known fact that almost all zerg players hate fs. go to ygosu.com to find out about this. zerg progamers will always pick something like circuit breaker instead of fs. do you know why fs is is firstly unbalanced? fs has a ridiculously short distance compared to other maps. its easier for zergs to die to +1 zlot and mnm push. on top of that, the simcity for protoss is ridiculously good that they can even go for double nexus even if zerg does overpool. they can literally block with just 1 or 2 probes because the wall is so tight. zergs starts out with slower tech and money vs protoss. lets not even mention zvt on fs. its horribly imba seriously. theres a reason why terran players except flash drop +10% on tvz when its played on circuit or other "balanced" maps.
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Bisutopia19044 Posts
Bisu still kicking ass. :D
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Zerg macro is harder than terran and protoss' macro. If you are not utlizing a larva as soon as it spawns and you have resources to either build a drone or a unit, you are losing out.
Besides this, you actually have to know when it's possible to invest in drones and when to invest in fighting units as opposed to protoss and terran for which the process is much more streamlined. Imagine the horror of not being able to use a barracks even if you have the money.
Also KogeT no offense but I don't really know you but you never played at a competitive level. You have no idea what it's like to play at Hero/Effort/Zero's level so you can't act as a figure of authority.
Zerg's (ultimate) army control is also just a lot harder in my opinion.
- 12 zerglings per control group
- Lurkers having to burrow before being able to attack
- Defilers not being a flying unit and having a really big collision size.
- Mutalisks require the most amount of micro to be effective. (Corsairs just get stronger the higher their number aside from when plague comes into play)
- Placing mines and sieging up tanks is a cakewalk compared to effectively setting up an attack against a sieged position.
I'm not making any claims in regarding to brood war's balance, but it is clear that there's a ton of potential for zerg units that is almost impossible for a human to take advantage of.
It's also fairly evident that zerg would be the strongest race when controlled by a prescient supercomputer. Exponential economy, perfect micro, perfect flanks.
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Japan11285 Posts
FS balance is too sacred to question. That's whats wrong here. Blaming Zerg woes on Zerg players sucking doesn't do it for me either. I do agree that when I watch zerg ladder games there are frequent wtf mistakes though. But it seems that only perfect play can win while Terran can lose a base and still have enough to come through.
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On July 02 2016 01:33 B-royal wrote: Zerg macro is harder than terran and protoss' macro. If you are not utlizing a larva as soon as it spawns and you have resources to either build a drone or a unit, you are losing out.
Besides this, you actually have to know when it's possible to invest in drones and when to invest in fighting units as opposed to protoss and terran for which the process is much more streamlined. Imagine the horror of not being able to use a barracks even if you have the money.
Also KogeT no offense but I don't really know you but you never played at a competitive level. You have no idea what it's like to play at Hero/Effort/Zero's level so you can't act as a figure of authority.
Zerg's (ultimate) army control is also just a lot harder in my opinion.
- 12 zerglings per control group
- Lurkers having to burrow before being able to attack
- Defilers not being a flying unit and having a really big collision size.
- Mutalisks require the most amount of micro to be effective. (Corsairs just get stronger the higher their number aside from when plague comes into play)
- Placing mines and sieging up tanks is a cakewalk compared to effectively setting up an attack against a sieged position.
I'm not making any claims in regarding to brood war's balance, but it is clear that there's a ton of potential for zerg units that is almost impossible for a human to take advantage of.
It's also fairly evident that zerg would be the strongest race when controlled by a prescient supercomputer. Exponential economy, perfect micro, perfect flanks.
You're so far from any truth that it makes any discussion nearly impossible. I'll just take few points: idle larva is same as any idle building from T or P = you don't use it, you are losing out (cc, barrack, factory doesn't matter). Also remember that you're really losing out only when there are 3 larvas, giving you a lot of time when you can skip macroing.
Knowledge of when to invest in drones vs making units is exactly same for T and P - both races have to cut worker production in early and mid game to have right amount of units or invest in tech. Fact is that zerg is more exposed to it, as if you somehow make too few drones you may find yourself in a position when you'll never be able to produce them (as you'll have to make units constantly and not have a chance to add additional hatchery, e.g 2 hath muta example on 2 drones at exp). From purely "mathematical" thinking this also applies to P and T but in real life is rarely seen.
Rest of your post is not related to the topic, e.g micro management etc. Different discussion that doesn't at all support your arguments, as it was about what is the full potential of zerg vs t/p macro wise. (nothing about which race is more difficult, as obviously each race difficulty exceeds what humans can do)
As for benchmarking me vs programers and saying "Hero/Zero/Effort" that just makes your argument even less interesting as I'm quite sure you never got close to my level, and if that is a measure, makes your statements redundant.
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Ι don't see how Zergs are doing that bad, ZvP is same as TvZ in terms of balance + we have practically only 4 Zergs making it harder for them (more predictable). One of which is simply not that good (with all the respect to Larva, but... ), Zero currently not playing to his full potential (unlike SSL 11, Spotimes S2, VNSL, Terror SL) and Hero has never been that good in ZvT (since Kespa) + Show Spoiler +And in the recommended FPVOD thread zergs have something like 95% winrate LOL
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On July 02 2016 04:21 ortseam wrote:Ι don't see how Zergs are doing that bad, ZvP is same as TvZ in terms of balance + we have practically only 4 Zergs making it harder for them (more predictable). One of which is simply not that good (with all the respect to Larva, but... ), Zero currently not playing to his full potential (unlike SSL 11, Spotimes S2, VNSL, Terror SL) and Hero has never been that good in ZvT (since Kespa) + Show Spoiler +And in the recommended FPVOD thread zergs have something like 95% winrate LOL \
not as of right now. zvp seems not that imba while tvz is EXTREMELY IMBA. Larva pointed out that "ever since flash has come in to play, it seems theres a big shift in late mech. It just seems more impossible to beat late mech. all terrans have ridiculous win rate vs zergs. Additionally, isn't it weird we only have 4 zergs right now? At amateur levels and semi pro levels, protoss and terran are imba races. Zerg is by far the weakest. I fear that zerg may die out.
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On July 02 2016 02:21 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 01:33 B-royal wrote: Zerg macro is harder than terran and protoss' macro. If you are not utlizing a larva as soon as it spawns and you have resources to either build a drone or a unit, you are losing out.
Besides this, you actually have to know when it's possible to invest in drones and when to invest in fighting units as opposed to protoss and terran for which the process is much more streamlined. Imagine the horror of not being able to use a barracks even if you have the money.
Also KogeT no offense but I don't really know you but you never played at a competitive level. You have no idea what it's like to play at Hero/Effort/Zero's level so you can't act as a figure of authority.
Zerg's (ultimate) army control is also just a lot harder in my opinion.
- 12 zerglings per control group
- Lurkers having to burrow before being able to attack
- Defilers not being a flying unit and having a really big collision size.
- Mutalisks require the most amount of micro to be effective. (Corsairs just get stronger the higher their number aside from when plague comes into play)
- Placing mines and sieging up tanks is a cakewalk compared to effectively setting up an attack against a sieged position.
I'm not making any claims in regarding to brood war's balance, but it is clear that there's a ton of potential for zerg units that is almost impossible for a human to take advantage of.
It's also fairly evident that zerg would be the strongest race when controlled by a prescient supercomputer. Exponential economy, perfect micro, perfect flanks. You're so far from any truth that it makes any discussion nearly impossible. I'll just take few points: idle larva is same as any idle building from T or P = you don't use it, you are losing out (cc, barrack, factory doesn't matter). Also remember that you're really losing out only when there are 3 larvas, giving you a lot of time when you can skip macroing. Knowledge of when to invest in drones vs making units is exactly same for T and P - both races have to cut worker production in early and mid game to have right amount of units or invest in tech. Fact is that zerg is more exposed to it, as if you somehow make too few drones you may find yourself in a position when you'll never be able to produce them (as you'll have to make units constantly and not have a chance to add additional hatchery, e.g 2 hath muta example on 2 drones at exp). From purely "mathematical" thinking this also applies to P and T but in real life is rarely seen. Rest of your post is not related to the topic, e.g micro management etc. Different discussion that doesn't at all support your arguments, as it was about what is the full potential of zerg vs t/p macro wise. (nothing about which race is more difficult, as obviously each race difficulty exceeds what humans can do) As for benchmarking me vs programers and saying "Hero/Zero/Effort" that just makes your argument even less interesting as I'm quite sure you never got close to my level, and if that is a measure, makes your statements redundant.
I think he's saying that it is infintely harder for zerg players to truly understand how to play. The race is just prone to multiple openings and bs throughout the game. It's just becoming harder and harder for zerg players as time goes by. Terrans keep benefiting as they get more used to certain maps like fs. Flash did say that it becomes infinitely easier once terrans keep playing on same map again and again. It just becomes imba. Tvz is IMBA AS HELL
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Nah this is impossible, bw is balanced perfectly everybody knows that
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On July 02 2016 02:21 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 01:33 B-royal wrote: Zerg macro is harder than terran and protoss' macro. If you are not utlizing a larva as soon as it spawns and you have resources to either build a drone or a unit, you are losing out.
Besides this, you actually have to know when it's possible to invest in drones and when to invest in fighting units as opposed to protoss and terran for which the process is much more streamlined. Imagine the horror of not being able to use a barracks even if you have the money.
Also KogeT no offense but I don't really know you but you never played at a competitive level. You have no idea what it's like to play at Hero/Effort/Zero's level so you can't act as a figure of authority.
Zerg's (ultimate) army control is also just a lot harder in my opinion.
- 12 zerglings per control group
- Lurkers having to burrow before being able to attack
- Defilers not being a flying unit and having a really big collision size.
- Mutalisks require the most amount of micro to be effective. (Corsairs just get stronger the higher their number aside from when plague comes into play)
- Placing mines and sieging up tanks is a cakewalk compared to effectively setting up an attack against a sieged position.
I'm not making any claims in regarding to brood war's balance, but it is clear that there's a ton of potential for zerg units that is almost impossible for a human to take advantage of.
It's also fairly evident that zerg would be the strongest race when controlled by a prescient supercomputer. Exponential economy, perfect micro, perfect flanks. You're so far from any truth that it makes any discussion nearly impossible. I'll just take few points: idle larva is same as any idle building from T or P = you don't use it, you are losing out (cc, barrack, factory doesn't matter). Also remember that you're really losing out only when there are 3 larvas, giving you a lot of time when you can skip macroing. Knowledge of when to invest in drones vs making units is exactly same for T and P - both races have to cut worker production in early and mid game to have right amount of units or invest in tech. Fact is that zerg is more exposed to it, as if you somehow make too few drones you may find yourself in a position when you'll never be able to produce them (as you'll have to make units constantly and not have a chance to add additional hatchery, e.g 2 hath muta example on 2 drones at exp). From purely "mathematical" thinking this also applies to P and T but in real life is rarely seen. Rest of your post is not related to the topic, e.g micro management etc. Different discussion that doesn't at all support your arguments, as it was about what is the full potential of zerg vs t/p macro wise. (nothing about which race is more difficult, as obviously each race difficulty exceeds what humans can do) As for benchmarking me vs programers and saying "Hero/Zero/Effort" that just makes your argument even less interesting as I'm quite sure you never got close to my level, and if that is a measure, makes your statements redundant.
Nah you're so far from the truth it's inconceivable. One idle larva does hurt. I don't understand why you would even claim otherwise.
Get this in your head: A larva spawns every 13-14 seconds and hatcheries aren't synced. Having 8 barracks all synced up can't even be fucking compared to having 6-7 hatcheries with larva spawning every 13-14 seconds at different times. Do you get it??
Micro management is obviously related to the topic at hand because we're talking about zergs struggling WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY related to the fact that micro managing all zerg units to equal effectiveness/cost effecieny as a terran's units is MUCH HARDER. if not downright impossible.
I'm already closing in on your level despite only having been playing this game for less than a year vs your 12 (lmao). Talk to me again in one year or two when I will consistently beat you.
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On July 02 2016 06:35 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 02:21 kogeT wrote:On July 02 2016 01:33 B-royal wrote: Zerg macro is harder than terran and protoss' macro. If you are not utlizing a larva as soon as it spawns and you have resources to either build a drone or a unit, you are losing out.
Besides this, you actually have to know when it's possible to invest in drones and when to invest in fighting units as opposed to protoss and terran for which the process is much more streamlined. Imagine the horror of not being able to use a barracks even if you have the money.
Also KogeT no offense but I don't really know you but you never played at a competitive level. You have no idea what it's like to play at Hero/Effort/Zero's level so you can't act as a figure of authority.
Zerg's (ultimate) army control is also just a lot harder in my opinion.
- 12 zerglings per control group
- Lurkers having to burrow before being able to attack
- Defilers not being a flying unit and having a really big collision size.
- Mutalisks require the most amount of micro to be effective. (Corsairs just get stronger the higher their number aside from when plague comes into play)
- Placing mines and sieging up tanks is a cakewalk compared to effectively setting up an attack against a sieged position.
I'm not making any claims in regarding to brood war's balance, but it is clear that there's a ton of potential for zerg units that is almost impossible for a human to take advantage of.
It's also fairly evident that zerg would be the strongest race when controlled by a prescient supercomputer. Exponential economy, perfect micro, perfect flanks. You're so far from any truth that it makes any discussion nearly impossible. I'll just take few points: idle larva is same as any idle building from T or P = you don't use it, you are losing out (cc, barrack, factory doesn't matter). Also remember that you're really losing out only when there are 3 larvas, giving you a lot of time when you can skip macroing. Knowledge of when to invest in drones vs making units is exactly same for T and P - both races have to cut worker production in early and mid game to have right amount of units or invest in tech. Fact is that zerg is more exposed to it, as if you somehow make too few drones you may find yourself in a position when you'll never be able to produce them (as you'll have to make units constantly and not have a chance to add additional hatchery, e.g 2 hath muta example on 2 drones at exp). From purely "mathematical" thinking this also applies to P and T but in real life is rarely seen. Rest of your post is not related to the topic, e.g micro management etc. Different discussion that doesn't at all support your arguments, as it was about what is the full potential of zerg vs t/p macro wise. (nothing about which race is more difficult, as obviously each race difficulty exceeds what humans can do) As for benchmarking me vs programers and saying "Hero/Zero/Effort" that just makes your argument even less interesting as I'm quite sure you never got close to my level, and if that is a measure, makes your statements redundant. Nah you're so far from the truth it's inconceivable. One idle larva does hurt. I don't understand why you would even claim otherwise. Get this in your head: A larva spawns every 13-14 seconds and hatcheries aren't synced. Having 8 barracks all synced up can't even be fucking compared to having 6-7 hatcheries with larva spawning every 13-14 seconds at different times. Do you get it?? Micro management is obviously related to the topic at hand because we're talking about zergs struggling WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY related to the fact that micro managing all zerg units to equal effectiveness/cost effecieny as a terran's units is MUCH HARDER. if not downright impossible. I'm already closing in on your level despite only having been playing this game for less than a year vs your 12 (lmao). Talk to me again in one year or two when I will consistently beat you.
well,koget was a zerg player before switch to Terran,and i think is up to the player to be cost effective or not,at the end of the day if you are lossing your units to mines is cuz lazy play(i include myself here,with few steps and proly playing slower could do more smart moves and loss less.)
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Zero finally beat Flash yesterday for the first time in June. He went 4-1 vs. Terran today. Hoping month of July won't be a TvZ slaughter.
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On July 02 2016 06:35 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 02:21 kogeT wrote:On July 02 2016 01:33 B-royal wrote: Zerg macro is harder than terran and protoss' macro. If you are not utlizing a larva as soon as it spawns and you have resources to either build a drone or a unit, you are losing out.
Besides this, you actually have to know when it's possible to invest in drones and when to invest in fighting units as opposed to protoss and terran for which the process is much more streamlined. Imagine the horror of not being able to use a barracks even if you have the money.
Also KogeT no offense but I don't really know you but you never played at a competitive level. You have no idea what it's like to play at Hero/Effort/Zero's level so you can't act as a figure of authority.
Zerg's (ultimate) army control is also just a lot harder in my opinion.
- 12 zerglings per control group
- Lurkers having to burrow before being able to attack
- Defilers not being a flying unit and having a really big collision size.
- Mutalisks require the most amount of micro to be effective. (Corsairs just get stronger the higher their number aside from when plague comes into play)
- Placing mines and sieging up tanks is a cakewalk compared to effectively setting up an attack against a sieged position.
I'm not making any claims in regarding to brood war's balance, but it is clear that there's a ton of potential for zerg units that is almost impossible for a human to take advantage of.
It's also fairly evident that zerg would be the strongest race when controlled by a prescient supercomputer. Exponential economy, perfect micro, perfect flanks. You're so far from any truth that it makes any discussion nearly impossible. I'll just take few points: idle larva is same as any idle building from T or P = you don't use it, you are losing out (cc, barrack, factory doesn't matter). Also remember that you're really losing out only when there are 3 larvas, giving you a lot of time when you can skip macroing. Knowledge of when to invest in drones vs making units is exactly same for T and P - both races have to cut worker production in early and mid game to have right amount of units or invest in tech. Fact is that zerg is more exposed to it, as if you somehow make too few drones you may find yourself in a position when you'll never be able to produce them (as you'll have to make units constantly and not have a chance to add additional hatchery, e.g 2 hath muta example on 2 drones at exp). From purely "mathematical" thinking this also applies to P and T but in real life is rarely seen. Rest of your post is not related to the topic, e.g micro management etc. Different discussion that doesn't at all support your arguments, as it was about what is the full potential of zerg vs t/p macro wise. (nothing about which race is more difficult, as obviously each race difficulty exceeds what humans can do) As for benchmarking me vs programers and saying "Hero/Zero/Effort" that just makes your argument even less interesting as I'm quite sure you never got close to my level, and if that is a measure, makes your statements redundant. Nah you're so far from the truth it's inconceivable. One idle larva does hurt. I don't understand why you would even claim otherwise. Get this in your head: A larva spawns every 13-14 seconds and hatcheries aren't synced. Having 8 barracks all synced up can't even be fucking compared to having 6-7 hatcheries with larva spawning every 13-14 seconds at different times. Do you get it?? Micro management is obviously related to the topic at hand because we're talking about zergs struggling WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY related to the fact that micro managing all zerg units to equal effectiveness/cost effecieny as a terran's units is MUCH HARDER. if not downright impossible. I'm already closing in on your level despite only having been playing this game for less than a year vs your 12 (lmao). Talk to me again in one year or two when I will consistently beat you. The only instance where one idle larva hurts, is the lost mining time when you build a drone. The same is true for not building an SCV on time. In all other instances, you will have the same amount of units whether you use every larva instantly or wait until 3 stacked up. So Zerg can micro for 40sec without doing any macro and still have the same amount of units. This obviously makes it much easier for zerg to micro. I didn't know that Terran buildings always finish, when one round of units finished to sync up perfectly.
Being condescending to someone you cannot even beat but thinking you know it all is surely the best way to discuss.
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Japan11285 Posts
PvZ is really hard if you're not Bisu. TvZ has been generally Terran favored for years.
On July 02 2016 09:44 classicyellow83 wrote: Zero finally beat Flash yesterday for the first time in June. He went 4-1 vs. Terran today. Hoping month of July won't be a TvZ slaughter. The month of July. A beautiful month
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ZvT got a lot better for a while after Effort came back. It was the first time I started seeing zergs (Effort) take games off of Terrans consistently versus late game mech.
Also I was watching some games of Flash vs Effort the other day and Flash was losing like everyone of them. I think Larva and Zero are blowing up Flashes %'s.
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On July 02 2016 16:17 puppykiller wrote: ZvT got a lot better for a while after Effort came back. It was the first time I started seeing zergs (Effort) take games off of Terrans consistently versus late game mech.
Also I was watching some games of Flash vs Effort the other day and Flash was losing like everyone of them. I think Larva and Zero are blowing up Flashes %'s. they played 2 bo3s. they took one each the other day. (2:0 Effort win, 2:1 Flash win). Effort also has losing record against all top terrans. vs Sea 8: 9, vs Flash 7:13, vs Last 4:10, vs Mong 3:6 It's more like he consistently loses to good terrans, but destroys lower tier terrans (vs rush 6:0, vs sharp 10:3, vs Piano 12:2). Even if you take out games verses Larva and Zero out, Flashes TvZ is still 70%. It's not "blown up".
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Is there a way to see these games? I know there are some in the "recommended pro game post kespa" thread but how to watch the other ones?
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