|
On December 12 2016 05:35 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2016 05:34 cakepie wrote:On December 12 2016 05:24 ExO_ wrote: Also that fake claim as town was just fucking horrible. It had no chance of baiting out an actual shot with how late it was, and it took far too long to rescind
Cakepie is really the scum MVP here Accepted. Holy shit NU great job. Time to sleep. Man you've gotta explain to me wtf happened there. How'd you get so locked in, why the super late fake claim. Those massive wall posts. I'm so blown away right now that you aren't scum after that I'm blown away that you think he was scum because of those wall posts. TW's claim is the only one that made sense this game.
|
TW I wanna know why you took the time to blow up a fake case on me, just so you could crumb a copcheck in there. I tilt hard on OMGUS, and that was the final straw where I convinced myself you must be scum. Plus side I baited the shot but still...I dont agree with that play from you.
|
one question for the scum team: why kill 1der instead of ExO? you could have easily found one stray vote on me out of 1der and cakepie
|
On December 12 2016 07:09 Hopeless1der wrote: TW I wanna know why you took the time to blow up a fake case on me, just so you could crumb a copcheck in there. I tilt hard on OMGUS, and that was the final straw where I convinced myself you must be scum. Plus side I baited the shot but still...I dont agree with that play from you. idk. I didn't want it to stick out and I expected to do everyone but in retrospect it was pretty stupid because I can never make more than 3 extensive cases in a game before stopping
|
On December 12 2016 07:10 Tumblewood wrote: one question for the scum team: why kill 1der instead of ExO? you could have easily found one stray vote on me out of 1der and cakepie I bought his blue crumbs. His "cakepie, can I sheep you" and "cop don't claim" posts (he was the only to voice against cop claiming and cop hadn't claimed) made me think he was cop with a green on CP.
|
On December 12 2016 05:55 Acrofales wrote: Honestly, though, this game deserves some post-mortem! There was a moment when TW and NU were on CR, and I mentioned to Artanis that CR should just hammer himself and stop town's chance for thinking out the game. But instead scum decided NU should unvote and they went with CR as a countercopclaim gambit. And then town chewed themselves up, because nobody considered for a second that NU was scum.
We actually had most of that planned out already in the qt. The plan was for me to counterclaim if tumblewood or exo was cop and checked anybody but NU, but cakepies fake claim threw us off a bit. NU stalled the thread a bit while we reformulated the plan. Cakepie also called it correctly than NU voting on me was a ballsy move, and we knew cakepie was going to tell NU to unvote immediately.
We got a little lucky on day 2 and our plan worked a little better than intended. We looked at two paths of victory, one which involved me getting lynched and taking cakepie down with me, and another where cakepie continues to believe that exo and tw is the scumteam. We decided to do the first one, where i link myself with cakepie, and have NU hammer me before cakepie changes his mind. In order to do that, we planned out a way to play that fulfilled every town's narrative at the same time and makes it look like the game is figured out from each persons perspective. The last thing we wanted was to have people considering that NU and I are mafia because their main read doesnt make sense anymore.
For ExO and TW, the work was already halfway done because i was already scummy to them, and they were reacting negatively to cakepies case. ExO was 99% on me being mafia, and 70% on cakepie, while TW was 100% and 90% respectively (i recall seeing these numbers in the thread) We just needed to turn these up to 100. So in the qt, we planned that i would make one post to cakepie and i made it awkward and forced, ignore exo completely, and spend all my time begging NU in order to create a false narrative that he's the pivotal town vote. We had no doubt that all town were considering in their head that i was mafia with NU, but the spoken narrative wasnt there yet, and NU had to hammer me before any suspicion was cast, which would then make NU look really good and cakepie really bad. We were hoping that on day 3, town would pick up that NU couldnt mafia with me because we could have already won with cakepies support, or if cakepie wasnt fully supporting us, then i spent the day begging my own mafia partner for his vote. It wasnt a very difficult plan to see through, but people may have been too tunnelled to care, or they ruled it out with occhams razor. At various moments in the day, i was like HAMMER NOW in the qt, but someone would post something, or we hesitated. So yeah, we didnt end up carrying that plan.
For cakepie, we actually had a feeling that he knew all along i was mafia, and he was just dragging on his case to get a reaction test in order to determine the remaining mafia between NU and ExO. After all, he has read and analyzed every little thing in the game. So we thought he might have been trying to lull NU into voting TW, so he can hammer me and make a case that NU is mafia. Or if NU hammers me first, he would point to a breadcrumb, saying that he knew i was mafia all along. I actually spent a good time scouring his big long posts for breadcrumbs. I mean, the dudes way too good and way too dedicated to not be looking into me and NU. So i thought there was a 25% chance that this was a ploy by cakepie, 50% that if NU switched his support unconvincingly, that town would pick up on it, and only 25% chance that we could win with cakepies vote. So we made the rule that if cakepie votes, we hammer. If he doesnt, then hammer me. Better odds of winning on day 3 than losing to epicploy!cakepie or scumslipping. We noticed halfway through the day that since ExO and TWs narrative involved me and cp being mafia, their counterarguments to CP all involved him being scum, or there being association between us. So cakepie was actually never presented with any opposing viewpoints to his ExO+TW case. I think maybe that contributed to him being tunnelled on his case. We spent a few hours early this morning planning how to play today very convincingly. NU eventually made the right call of Fuck it, im just gonna straight up ask cakepie to vote first. So yeah, we completely overreacted to cakepie, but it worked out in the end.
|
On December 12 2016 07:10 Tumblewood wrote:one question for the scum team: why kill 1der instead of ExO? you could have easily found one stray vote on me out of 1der and cakepie
i looked into h1s filter and saw some of the cop crumbs that cakepie analyzed, and so did NU. Well played by h1.
|
On December 12 2016 07:28 Chairman Ray wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2016 07:10 Tumblewood wrote:one question for the scum team: why kill 1der instead of ExO? you could have easily found one stray vote on me out of 1der and cakepie i looked into h1s filter and saw some of the cop crumbs that cakepie analyzed, and so did NU. Well played by h1. I feel the set up made that possible more than anything else. I got zero cop vibes off of anyone N0 so I took matters into my own hands. At the end of it all, I think TW played *cop* right, but once claimed the game got really screwed up. No one wanted to really think about how/why the cops claimed and focused on solving the game outright on D2 instead of solving the question of "who is the real cop" which I think was really obvious, especially coming from a guy who was 99% ready to lynch TW D1.
|
Thanks to everyone who was concerned for me and my health. I know both hosts were concerned. <3 IIRC these guys said it in thread and I'll + Show Spoiler +extend good faith and believe that they were sincere about it despite the WIFOM value. (ow! ow! ok ok just joking dammit!) : Ray <3 Tumblewood <3 I haven't looked in QTs yet but preemptive <3 to any others who were (obs)cheering / (scum)respecting me there.
I still got the sniffles and had chills when I woke up earlier but I'm feeling better now. At least, I'm much better rested than I have been in many days. Part of it is not having to worry about the game anymore. Part of it is that I have absolutely no regrets for my loss. And part of it is finally using the drowsy meds and not the non-drowsy ones. =Þ
Thanks Acrofales and Artanis for standing up for me vs the salt of other town players. <3 I'm willing to take my fair share of the blame for our loss. But only Koshi + H1 are allowed to bop me on the head without any other qualification. I know TW and ExO were salty, so I'll overlook their heat-of-the-moment comments immediately after the game. + Show Spoiler +But if you guys actually bother to come back and learn from this game please realize that before you simply pile all the blame on me as "designated scapegoat", you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror too.
(same as in-game, I know I have a tendency to sound like an arrogant prick... but really I'm not -- I've kept saying that I'm okay with swallowing my pride, I'm willing to take blame for the loss, etc. -- but as hosts tried to tell you guys, it's the salt doing the talking -- you're being unfair to me and not giving me the minimum respect I deserve.)
I'm going to do some more "take care of me" for a bit, but I'll come back later and do my personal postmortem for you all, so you can see where I was at and how I got us to where we ended up.
Doing a public postmortem is definitely going to expose a lot about me as a player, but thinking about it, I think that doing so will be good for both me and TL mafia community members who play with me in future. You'll see what I mean when I post my conclusions.
be back later!
|
On December 12 2016 07:28 Chairman Ray wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2016 07:10 Tumblewood wrote:one question for the scum team: why kill 1der instead of ExO? you could have easily found one stray vote on me out of 1der and cakepie i looked into h1s filter and saw some of the cop crumbs that cakepie analyzed, and so did NU. Well played by h1.
Can't believe you went and dug up my TLPD with my horrible record , or that you even knew that was me
|
On December 12 2016 05:41 cakepie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2016 05:35 Chairman Ray wrote:To cakepies credit, he got very close to figuring out the game. I dont think anyone else would have considered NU would be scum after I flip, but cakepie got one thing perfectly correct: On December 10 2016 16:33 cakepie wrote:On December 10 2016 15:36 Tumblewood wrote:
I'm not lynching you today, not with an absolute certainty on the board. but consider that, if you're town, then exo has to be scum and must be playing a pretty damn good game. Huh, you might actually care. You could lynch Ray today, and die tonight, and leave us to our devices. But you care (or are pretending to.) If cop!TW and town!cakepie, it's either ExO or NU with Ray. Don't discount NU with Ray. It's plausible that the following: - You were selected as D1 target based on N0, and Ray vs NU was a distancing move where Ray has to lynch you to flip you scum and scum NU by association. But we could copcheck you as town and Ray would safely disengage NU. Or we mislynch you and they win. In that sense, Ray v NU isn't even a bus. - EoD1 may have had NU waiting to hammer you if ExO or H1 voted. - your crumbs were found, and scum actually opted not to kill cop!TW because: - they get to kill conftown in H1 - you were scumread D1 by H1, me, and ?ExO? - with me going after TW+ExO, I'm the weakest link who will mislynch you - in any event, NU is sent into thread to vote you and get stupidcake to vote you and then Ray hammers - scum puzzles over my claim for a bit and then figures out I fucked up. Ray formulates his copclaim. - NU voting ray is ballsy, but they know I will tell NU to unvote. - This requires NU to be playing very well, but this is the scenario where he has Ray as a very experienced scumbuddy who can guide him. So you need to consider both ExO and NU. Yes. The point when the game was irretrievably lost was when TW shut the door on me. If he was more receptive, I maybe maybe maybe I could have sorted it out. I tri ed to give you a chance on D2 but you spent all game crusading to lynch me and to save chairman ray — I was looking for a glimmer of hope, but you continued writing these huge terrible cases (the logic really was atrocious in many instances) campaigning for the mafia agenda. how the hell do I scumread NU over the guy who is helping confscum ray more than ray is helping confscum ray? :/
|
idk cakepie it's really hard for me to accept a lot of what you are saying. It's basically "yeah I fucked up, but its really everyone else's fault.
I don't give you points for "effort" when all the effort was completely in the wrong place. Especially after talking all that shit about the old guard and how good your methods are, and how wrong you were for so long. You let scum CR talk you into scum reading TW, and never questioned your own read but went deeper and deeper into the tunnel. How tinfoil do you have to be, to believe CR's cop claim, while simultaneously believing TW faked breadcrumbs, and posted 2.5x as much as CR.
That's why I was so sure you were the scum at the end of the game, I didn't see how you could possibly be townie. You did CR's job for him, after doing a highly questionable fake claim.
I don't mean to harp on you the game is over its whatever now. But I really don't think you have any place to be criticizing anybody else's gameplay
|
There we go again. I've gone and worded things poorly and you're mad at me again.
I wasn't going to criticize anyone at all, or try to push the blame around, or anything.
In hindsight it is very clear to everyone that I fucked up massively with that hard tunnel. Yes, I tunneled very deep when I should have easily won the game without anyone else's help. But there is a good (as in, plausible and valid) reason how I ended up being so bad. Simply put, I was completely burnt out -- and ONE SINGLE HUGE BAD DECISION then led on to the entire endgame fiasco. (The huge bad decision isn't even the fact that I fakeclaimed. In hindsight, the fakeclaim idea was okay, I just executed it extremely poorly.)
I was going to try to explain myself, because I know that the way that I handled the end was massively bad. And I know that you, for example, are very salty and angry at me for it -- because you were in the heat of the game.
I was going to try to show what happened, and how it happened. And hope that people like you would be able to understand, and forgive, while seeing also that there WAS something you could have done to stop me.
The reason I sound so arrogant to you again, is that with the clarity after the game, I can see that I wasn't doing as bad as I thought. I found back a lot of my confidence, whereas during the game I had experienced a very massive self esteem crisis. So I felt a lot better about myself, and saw that, at least until before I burnt out, I was actually doing really really well.
Let me try to fix my wording.
But if you guys actually bother to come back and learn from this game please realize that before you simply pile all the blame on me as "designated scapegoat", you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror too. there were many many missed opportunities where you could have "got" what I was doing, understand that I was looking for help, and reach out to me with an open heart. Because I would have gratefully taken your hand and we could have won from there incredibly easily
Doing a public postmortem is definitely going to expose a lot about me as a player, but thinking about it, I think that doing so will be good for both me and TL mafia community members who play with me in future. You'll see what I mean when I post my conclusions.
forget about this until later. then come back and read it again.
Maybe it's be better if Ray / NU explain to the town guys what happened and why the endgame dragged out so long and made everyone so fucking angry (especially my fake bravado. cuz they're still fucking mad as hell.).
|
The hosts will also be able to vouch for me. Just please be willing to hear me out when I do post it.
Looks like I'm not going to be able to do the full breakdown it as soon as I'd thought, though. My emotional state clearly still isn't at the right place. #589 was due to my immense relief+euphoria so I sounded overconfident but now I'm back down to depressed again, because I've just made ExO mad again.
the summary, for now:
I've focused too much on applying the lessons from my last game and went full tryhard.
It worked really well and I gained a lot of confidence because I sense that I was doing the right thing and my play was improving tremendously.
But being this invested ended up being incredibly harmful to my own physical, mental and emotional well being.
I suffered a complete mental breakdown and emotional meltdown, on top of my already failing health. I recognized this and left the thread. I even apologized to the hosts and asked to be modkilled and banlisted. But they urged me to try, because WE WERE THIS FUCKING CLOSE! So I tried. Except I wasn't really in a state to go on anymore.
At least while I was "fully functional", I was doing really well. And even when I wasn't, I still showed flashes of brilliance, and scum still found me enough of a threat that they prolonged the game, because they had to play to their wincon as well. (and prolonged my suffering. T_T)
scum team and hosts, please help me convince the angry town mob that I'm really sincere about this.
|
Cakepie I don't know you IRL, but I'm certainly not mad at you. I'm very passionate about games, and very competitive. and I hate losing. I would not want anything I'm saying here to affect you in your personal life though, certainly don't get depressed about this. I talk to you the way I do not to make you feel bad or down, but because I get invested in what I do.
But for me this is just a game. I wouldn't want this to affect your personal life. So please cheer up, I'll try to be a bit more careful with my words
|
Also unlike the hosts, I wasn't really aware of what was happening with your physical/mental health. You brought it up a few times in the thread but I didn't really understand the extent to which it was affecting you. Part of that is for most of the time I thought you were on the scum team and not meaning it. I really hope you get better soon.
Again I didn't mean to cause you any IRL distress. I'm apologize if my words affected you in that way
|
I firstly want to say that I still feel that while cakepie placed the town vote that ended the game, the blame is not all on him. Town seemed disfunctional, and it was not really due to anything scum did, they just coasted along while town tore itself apart (a pretty normal scum victory). Both TW and ExO_ just read cakepie as scum and stopped listening to anything he said, and what he said made quite a lot of sense, even though it was all wrong
I also want to comment on the wall of text bit (re: #591), but for that it needs to be clear that I think that NU hammering earlier on would have been the safer play to ensure a CP mislynch on D3. It's easy to say as a "what-if", because it would also give CP an extra night and day to convince ExO_ he was town, but decisively hammering scum is a pretty powerful "town" play. As I said before, I actually thought CR should have trololol hammered himself right at the start, denying town all that time to think.
As it is, scum was pretty all-in on CP not realizing his mistake. If ExO_ or TW had been able to convince CP, then CP would have had the benefit of hammering the scum and NU would have looked really suspect for being on the fence for so very very long. And that brings me to the main point I want to make, which is in response to #591 (yeah, I'm longwinded ). You clearly realized that CR was doing very little to defend himself. There was some token effort, but a scum with a red check on him knows he's burned. And more importantly, his teammate knows so too. It is very uncommon for a scum to go 100% all-in hard defense on his scumbuddy, because unlike townies: they know they are wrong, and they also know that if their defense fails, and the flip happens, they will look completely awful. Whereas a townie in lylo will do everything he possibly can, including posting more than the rest of the players combined to try to convince the rest of town. And, moreover, if CP had been scum, he really should have voted.
In hindsight it is easy to see this (as it is from a hosting point of view), and it is far harder when in the heat of the game, and you're in your tunnel, having "solved" the game. However, that is also when it is most important to realize these aspects.
And some self-congratulations here: this type of micro game setup is a great setting for hammering home such hard lessons. Lylo in bigger games come with far more baggage, making it harder to analyze, whereas the *optimal* play for both scum and town are quite obvious here (from the outside), and the trick is to distance yourself enough from the game while playing it to recognize those plays. In the heat of the game, it is very hard for TW or ExO_ to figure out who CR´s scumbuddy is, and the cases on cakepie made a lot of sense: fakeclaimed cop, was hard defending someone they knew to be scum, pretty much textbook evil mafia plays. But stepping back and looking at the big picture, cakepie was quite obviously town. And that made NU the obvious scum. With that realization, I think either one could have convinced cakepie.
Finally, a bit about the cop claim. Given that the doctor died, the very last moment of N1 is the right time to claim (with the medic alive, you can claim at the start of N1, or even earlier if you got a red check). And between TW making a case against a green check and claiming too late (after he could have died), his cop claim was off to a rocky start. Even so, his cop claim made miles and miles and miles more sense than CR's. It was clear, explained, and very obviously coming from a cop. CR's was half-baked and thrown together as a reaction to the actual cop claim (scum thought CP was the cop and they were still in the clear). If anybody should have been confused, it's ExO_, because he had to deal with CP's fakeclaim. Unfortunately, CP was too tunneled on TW *having to be scum* to recognize the truth.
And let this be a warning to townies NOT to get stuck in a tunnel. Incidentally, I learned this the hard way too, getting into a really big figh with marvellosity, being completely convinced he was scum (and he was obviously town, to see the game, clicky: be warned, it had weird mechanics and lots of hydras). Artanis was the host in that game too, shall we blame him? Luckily for town, we won the game anyway, but it was still a pretty shitty experience while playing the game, so I totally understood cakepie's agony. Unfortunately as a host, there is very little one can do: the players need to play the game, and there was only one point where things threatened to cross a line, but you guys self-corrected. I'm just glad cakepie is now feeling better and we didn't make a big mistake not modkilling him when he requested it.
|
I think one thing you are missing acrofales, is that in my mind I what was happening was mafia team going for a "win now" strategy. I think at a certain point I even brought it up that I found it odd CP would defend his scum buddy to the ends of the earth now instead of going to the next day. But that's how I read it. It's not like I wasn't aware of:
"And more importantly, his teammate knows so too. It is very uncommon for a scum to go 100% all-in hard defense on his scumbuddy, because unlike townies: they know they are wrong, and they also know that if their defense fails, and the flip happens, they will look completely awful"
It's that there was only 1 day. Looking awful doesn't matter if you win immediately.
and iirc I also found it odd that NU was super concerned with what I thought about him, instead of killing the scum.
On December 11 2016 04:59 ExO_ wrote:
And again Day 1 I wrote the impressions I got as I read the thread. What motivation would I have to "backstab" you as scum? I wasn't trying to push you when you were afk at all. I find it a bit odd that right now you seem to care a lot about what people thought/think about you. But that's something to consider for another time.
What mattered that day though was killing the fake claim. And I think despite everything the case on CR was very clear. TW had breadcrumbs, higher effort and post count. CR was afk no breadcrumbs and not even defending. I honestly don't know what I could've done to convince cakepie. He saw the same things I did, but he was in a tunnel that I don't think I could've found a way to pull him out of.
|
On December 12 2016 19:33 ExO_ wrote: Cakepie I don't know you IRL, but I'm certainly not mad at you. I'm very passionate about games, and very competitive. and I hate losing. I would not want anything I'm saying here to affect you in your personal life though, certainly don't get depressed about this. I talk to you the way I do not to make you feel bad or down, but because I get invested in what I do.
But for me this is just a game. I wouldn't want this to affect your personal life. So please cheer up, I'll try to be a bit more careful with my words On December 12 2016 19:42 ExO_ wrote: Also unlike the hosts, I wasn't really aware of what was happening with your physical/mental health. You brought it up a few times in the thread but I didn't really understand the extent to which it was affecting you. Part of that is for most of the time I thought you were on the scum team and not meaning it. I really hope you get better soon.
Again I didn't mean to cause you any IRL distress. I'm apologize if my words affected you in that way <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
|
On December 12 2016 20:58 Acrofales wrote: WoT Eh... close but not quite.
I am going to have to tell my story when I'm feeling up to it. Hosts and scum kinda know what I'm going through from an outside perspective. But they don't have access to the inside of my head.
After I tell my side of the story, you'll all finally understand. Nobody was "BAD" this game. + Show Spoiler +I'm going to have to call TW lazy, though. But "lazy" is an fair and objective criticism of him in view of the punishing format of this game. This is not ad hom "you are bad and should feel bad" toxicty. I promise. No. bad cakepie. don't do this. don't shift blame around.
For me, this game was both AMAZING and a GREAT TRAGEDY all at once. I hope everyone will see it the same way eventually.
On December 12 2016 20:58 Acrofales wrote: Unfortunately as a host, there is very little one can do: the players need to play the game, and there was only one point where things threatened to cross a line, but you guys self-corrected. This is no coincidence. NU and I self-corrected because this was one of the biggest things he admitted that he needed to fix after NSM24. I was very glad that he showed me through his actions that he had learned that lesson. I reciprocated immediately, found my reason for triggering, and made good with him.
On December 12 2016 20:58 Acrofales wrote: I'm just glad cakepie is now feeling better and we didn't make a big mistake not modkilling him when he requested it. It took me three passes of this sentence to figure out what you were saying! <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
|
|
|
|