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Hello. Since I learned a lot from my previous TvP help thread, I hope to get some feedback on TvZ as well.
How my games go:
A "standard" TvZ for me goes something like this:
I open 1rax FE with supp depot and double scout, simcity my nat with a bunker and supply depot, +1 5rax build, double scan Z once I get comsat. Unless I can see a fast hydra den with my scout, I invest like 700g or something into turrets ( 3 per mineral line, 3 on rax) then move out with my intiial force with stim, +1 and range on the way. I keep an scv on one main and scan the other to spot the Z third.
Now, if they go mutas I might be able to threaten their third if they've been skimping on units. If they go lurkers I generally can't do much. If I do take out their third while its building, they will take their third once they have lurkers on ramp.
Now this is where I either win or lose the game. I am either able to take all my units and bust their main because they have been greedy on amount of sunkens and units. If they have not been greedy, I am brought to lategame and I lose. If they have been greedy, I can win the game straight up.
I usually follow up with a factory for teching up to starport, put down 2x ports and start getting vessels. I lose often vs mass lurker, fast ultras, defilers before I get enough vessels with irradiate energy etc. If I do wait long enough until they have settled on 4 bases, I know for a fact I will lose the game because m&m + vessels will never win vs ultra/ling/defiler or what have you.
So with that last sentence in mind, I want to explain what I think about TvZ. T wins or cripples before zerg gets a big economy, if T cannot do this (Z gets unscathed to lategame); Z wins almost no matter what unless massive skill gap. So if that is true, my objective as Terran must be to win the game before that happens. How, I have no idea. Most zergs have enough sunkens at their main that no m&m army can touch it, go lurkers to easily secure their third and get defilers, fake mutas and go fast for defilers with spire tech, place out scourge to deny drops etc - I feel I lack direction, going +1 5rax push into SK terran doesn't feel effective at all, starting to build tanks after +1 5rax doesn't feel good either, not enough vessels and tanks are too late for any pre defiler timing. I just have absolutely no clue what to do vs zerg. It feels as if any decent Zerg will easily survive until lategame, at which point I just lose. So I need some sense of direction on how to kill / cripple Z before hive tech. I've tried +1 5rax and it doesn't work for me. I deny a ton of thirds, I win vs some greedy players, but most good zergs I face easily hold any +1 5rax build, and why wouldn't they, its not like its a free win.
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It's funny reading this kind of stuff, because as a bad Zerg, playing zvt always makes me feels like it's rigged in the Terran's favor. Their base defense are strong, marines are so cheap and effective, and there's a million cute little builds they can do that you have to individually learn and react to. But I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
It is true that getting that 3rd as a Zerg, without dying to a push, is really crucial. But I wonder if some of that is just correlation. If they can get a 3rd, while keeping their economy in good shape and defending everywhere, despite your best efforts, there's a good chance they might be better than you overall . That will become most clear in a high-economy late game situation, but it doesn't mean you don't have options, it's just more difficult.
One thing you barely mentioned is dropships. If they go fast lurker you can easily use those to bypass their lurkers on the ramp, or just go straight into the main. Dropships are *really* annoying. Even if they do have scourge out, there's a high chance that us low-level zergs just won't react fast enough to hit the dropships. Later you can also use defensive matrix on the dropships.
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If you go for double starport and mass science vessels, dropships and mnm then you are kinda right. You should pressure zergs and as Luddite said add dropships play to your arsenal. SK terran is to pressure with many mobile groups/drops that can work independently and overwhelm opponent.
Now, if you prefer frontal attack to bust their main maybe go for standard siege tank push ? 3 siege tanks plus science vessel. Add machine shop to factory and dont build second starport. There are many paths that you can take in TvZ on the spectrum of bio-mech. Before this ASL season everyone spammed mech switch. It is very difficult playstyle to stop for lower level zergs.
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9 turrets are too many for 5rax. 4 should be enough in the beginning (2 in each min line). If you see no signs of a 3rd base or if you see like 4 sunkens at the Z natural you can build more turrets because in that case the Zerg is probably planning to attack your base with his mutas instead of skirmishing with your m&m.
It's important that you stay active and aggressive with your m&m. Zerg should not be allowed to attack your base with mutas and at the same time get a 3rd up or skip sunkens at his natural.
Try to start your factory at around 7 minutes. As mentioned before use dropships. If you can't get your dropships inside the Zerg bases 2 Battlecruisers really do wonders in clearing the way for dropships. BCs oneshot scourges and most Zergs don't know how to deal with BCs and sent small groups of scourges that the BCs easily shoot down. However don't build BCs if your vessel count is too low because you lost them.
Even if you play SK Terran use your 1 factory to produce vultures and plant mines around the map after the Z has defilers. If you play on a 4 player map and secure another main base it's nice to add 1 or 2 factories there to produce tanks to secure the base.
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Thanks for the replies guys. Is it acceptable with +1 5rax to "let him" get his third (in situations where my push won't work because he has too many mutas or went lurkers) and go for 2x starports dropships immediately following, then vessels - and can this style be played vs lurker heavy play, or should I just get double factory 1 starport vs that kind of play?
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If Z goes lurkers first you have a BO disadvantage, it is almost impossible to deny a third as mass marines don't do shit vs a couple of lurkers. Also you delay your tech with +1 5 Rax alot while he skipped mutas, so drops come so late that Z should already have hive and a spire for scourge up.
Versus 3h muta I think you have to atleast trade a good amount of mutas and lings vs m&m to be equal in the game if you can't deny the 3rd. SK-Terran is very hard to play because of ultras and defilers as you noticed, unless you play on very open maps and with islands (like python or Andromeda), I would rather recommend a midgame mech switch style by going mass vultures after +1 5 rax with 1 starport vessels. With mines on the map you can then double expand and switch to tanks.
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you should be scanning around 6:00~6:15. if it's lurker tech immediately put down a fact instead of a 5th rax (cancel if you started it already) and move out (should have 10~15 marines/firebats, ~3 medics). get bunkers soon after in case of backstabs
it's ok to let Z take a 3rd as long as you maintain some level of map control. it's not ideal but definitely very playable
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"Have to cripple or kill before defiler" is definitelly the wrong mindset because it will lead to 100% loss-rate against good defensive macro Zergs. + Show Spoiler +And you might walk into all kinds of traps if Zerg switches into mass-lurker-ling. Against macro-Zergs this is the story of TvZ basically: unless you really see a clear gap, it's not about killing Zerg now or dealing big blows, but just causing him trouble to keep him from getting too strong too quickly while you follow your macro agenda. Timings are incredibly tight in TvZ if you play well, for you and for him, but if you keep the pace up, Zerg will only be able to rush to mutas, lurkers, defilers, ultras just like that and - contrary to your impression of his multiple successful defenses - without getting ahead. You make a small push even before/during the muta phase to do that, you threaten his natural/3rd while he has few lurkers still to do that, you push out before/when his first 1-2 defilers are out to do that: just forcing these defenses instead of drones/tech is good for you.
For those reasons, I wouldn't give up on pushing pre/during the beginning of the defiler phase even with 5rax. Especially if you killed lots of his units in the midgame. Good Terrans still tech relatively quickly even if they go 5rax. Observe how few turrets they build if they go 5rax, they move out even before/while the mutas pop, build 3-4 against the first wave of mutas and defend with their reinforcements. Thus they can force Z into using the mutas defensively, and they get a fast factory-tech, meaning that irradiate, siege-tanks or drops are out fast enough to cause Z trouble even if defilers are out. Now, defilers give invulnerability (almost), so you can't kill Zerg - but you can hold him where he is: 3 bases, less drones than you have SCVs. You want to kill the few defilers again and again with irradiate and whatever else you can of his army, keep him cornered for as long as possible. Just keep him busy and not droning-up while you take your 3rd and 4th, do the mech switch or prepare multiple drops while getting upgrades. Still, you will have to retreat sooner or later against too much defiler-ling-lurker(-ultra).
You have to be able to play lategame to follow this strategy of course, and SK Terran, as you realized, is only for pros unless there is a skill-gap between you and your opponent. I'd suggest you learn to do the mech-switch like Cryoc explained with double-expand behind mines, it's good to have in your arsenal anyways.
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On June 17 2017 02:04 Cryoc wrote: If Z goes lurkers first you have a BO disadvantage, it is almost impossible to deny a third as mass marines don't do shit vs a couple of lurkers. Also you delay your tech with +1 5 Rax alot while he skipped mutas, so drops come so late that Z should already have hive and a spire for scourge up.
So terran goes 5 rax +1, scans and sees hydra den, what does stop him from parking his first m&m group in front of zerg's natural before zerg sends the drone to the third?
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Nothing, but you only have around one control group of m&m with that build around that time, so the only case that really bothers Z is, if he didn't build any amount of lings and T can reinforce the contain without worrying about backstabs. T usually doesn't know if there already are some hydras on the map to either counter him or just setup on a ramp to defend their future third. As long as Z has already some units on the map it is not hard to either counter T if everything is at Z's natural or to sandwich a smaller force at your front to break the contain.
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Here is a typical game for me.
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=00791328223732495545
I haven't been playing too much these past days so execution on everything was a bit rusty, but the game reflects my issues perfectly. I don't kill his third because he had enough units, by the time I have enough units to pressure anything he has lurkers up (can't push him at all), I try dropships but scourge intercept and I need to get vessels with irradiate up.. Aaand he has defilers and just autowins.
I just don't understand what I am supposed to do in the event that zerg doesn't die pre defiler.
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Honestly, your build order execution is just very bad and is probably the main reason you lose your games. You build your 2nd depot too late, which should be build shortly before 15/18 or right at 15/18 if you don't see Z at first try. Then you build your CC really late too at 550 minerals in the bank and proceed with a useless early bunker because of 2 lings which you can see? You get supply blocked again at 44/44. You shouldn't stop SCV production at all until you built all raxes. Because of all this missing income due to missing scvs and late CC, you have less units and later tech which is the reason you lose. Z's muta timing was normal.
Also it doesn't make sense to only use a part of your marines to attack the hatch and leave some at the ramp. That way Z can kill your stuff with minimal losses, either camp the ramp with everything, if Z already knows your army is there or focus fire the base with everything. After you missed that opportunity you were just so far behind in everything that you could have as well gged right there.
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A solution may be to not try to play like a progamer. Get more tanks vs their lurkers. And learn how to unsiege your tanks in time so they are out of the dark swarm before their cracklings get there. Three control groups of stimmed upgraded marines do crazy dps. If you can somehow exploit that, ie prevent fighting under darkswarm, Z will have a really hard time as the Z will have to make sure all his lurker, lings, ultras arrive at your m&m exactly at the same time. So somehow you need to get into the mindset of baiting out dark swarms fight, before actually fighting.
Your window is to win before zerg get ultras with armor. Once they get utlras, the resources they will have banked up because you both have bad micro will suddenly be fixed. And killing ultras with SK terran is impossible even for progamers nowadays.
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On June 17 2017 18:54 Cryoc wrote: Honestly, your build order execution is just very bad and is probably the main reason you lose your games. You build your 2nd depot too late, which should be build shortly before 15/18 or right at 15/18 if you don't see Z at first try. Then you build your CC really late too at 550 minerals in the bank and proceed with a useless early bunker because of 2 lings which you can see? You get supply blocked again at 44/44. You don't stop SCV production at all until you built all raxes. Because of all this missing income due to missing scvs and late CC, you have less units and later tech which is the reason you lose. Z's muta timing was normal.
Also it doesn't make sense to only use a part of your marines to attack the hatch and leave some at the ramp. That way Z can kill your stuff with minimal losses, either camp the ramp with everything, if Z already knows your army is there or focus fire the base with everything. After you missed that opportunity you were just so far behind in everything that you could have as well gged right there.
Thanks for shooting straight, I think this kind of perspective helps a lot. I guess I just gotta practice b.o and get tighter at the execution.
The idea about camping some on top of the ramp was an experimental move that obviously didn't work out very well. I won't be trying that anymore.
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On June 17 2017 23:42 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 18:54 Cryoc wrote: Honestly, your build order execution is just very bad and is probably the main reason you lose your games. You build your 2nd depot too late, which should be build shortly before 15/18 or right at 15/18 if you don't see Z at first try. Then you build your CC really late too at 550 minerals in the bank and proceed with a useless early bunker because of 2 lings which you can see? You get supply blocked again at 44/44. You don't stop SCV production at all until you built all raxes. Because of all this missing income due to missing scvs and late CC, you have less units and later tech which is the reason you lose. Z's muta timing was normal.
Also it doesn't make sense to only use a part of your marines to attack the hatch and leave some at the ramp. That way Z can kill your stuff with minimal losses, either camp the ramp with everything, if Z already knows your army is there or focus fire the base with everything. After you missed that opportunity you were just so far behind in everything that you could have as well gged right there. Thanks for shooting straight, I think this kind of perspective helps a lot. I guess I just gotta practice b.o and get tighter at the execution. The idea about camping some on top of the ramp was an experimental move that obviously didn't work out very well. I won't be trying that anymore.
Yes, think about it from Zerg's perspective. When you're using mutas you are always looking for groups of isolated marines to pick off, when you split your marines like that you are creating the ideal situation for the muta user.
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On June 18 2017 00:22 -Frog- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 23:42 krooked wrote:On June 17 2017 18:54 Cryoc wrote: Honestly, your build order execution is just very bad and is probably the main reason you lose your games. You build your 2nd depot too late, which should be build shortly before 15/18 or right at 15/18 if you don't see Z at first try. Then you build your CC really late too at 550 minerals in the bank and proceed with a useless early bunker because of 2 lings which you can see? You get supply blocked again at 44/44. You don't stop SCV production at all until you built all raxes. Because of all this missing income due to missing scvs and late CC, you have less units and later tech which is the reason you lose. Z's muta timing was normal.
Also it doesn't make sense to only use a part of your marines to attack the hatch and leave some at the ramp. That way Z can kill your stuff with minimal losses, either camp the ramp with everything, if Z already knows your army is there or focus fire the base with everything. After you missed that opportunity you were just so far behind in everything that you could have as well gged right there. Thanks for shooting straight, I think this kind of perspective helps a lot. I guess I just gotta practice b.o and get tighter at the execution. The idea about camping some on top of the ramp was an experimental move that obviously didn't work out very well. I won't be trying that anymore. Yes, think about it from Zerg's perspective. When you're using mutas you are always looking for groups of isolated marines to pick off, when you split your marines like that you are creating the ideal situation for the muta user.
Yeah. the "logic" was that I knew he would be in position with units so I wanted to kill lings running up the ramp. I didn't respect his muta count at all. Next time I will just go for the hatch immediately.
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If you're still new, I'd advise against going 1rax FE every game. Honestly larger Terran armies can be a lot harder to micro than larger Zerg or Toss ones. You might have a lot more luck putting on early pressure with smaller M&M forces.
Try some 2-3 rax openings, get stim up early, and really put pressure on your opponent. Send out a series of "away team"s - little M&M balls that will probably never make it home - and see if you can't force a ton of sunkens or lings, or even stall a 3rd base.
In my opinion trying to play a macro game against a zerg at low level is really hard.
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On June 26 2017 00:51 Haemonculus wrote: If you're still new, I'd advise against going 1rax FE every game. Honestly larger Terran armies can be a lot harder to micro than larger Zerg or Toss ones. You might have a lot more luck putting on early pressure with smaller M&M forces.
Try some 2-3 rax openings, get stim up early, and really put pressure on your opponent. Send out a series of "away team"s - little M&M balls that will probably never make it home - and see if you can't force a ton of sunkens or lings, or even stall a 3rd base.
In my opinion trying to play a macro game against a zerg at low level is really hard. Also probably shouldnt try SK Terran as a low level, it requires a great deal of multitasking and exceptional micro/macro to make it work. Stick with tanks or mech transition, when you get comfortable with macroing you can def switch out to SK terran(i prefer it more than mech personally) but until then id stay away from it
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On June 26 2017 09:19 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2017 00:51 Haemonculus wrote: If you're still new, I'd advise against going 1rax FE every game. Honestly larger Terran armies can be a lot harder to micro than larger Zerg or Toss ones. You might have a lot more luck putting on early pressure with smaller M&M forces.
Try some 2-3 rax openings, get stim up early, and really put pressure on your opponent. Send out a series of "away team"s - little M&M balls that will probably never make it home - and see if you can't force a ton of sunkens or lings, or even stall a 3rd base.
In my opinion trying to play a macro game against a zerg at low level is really hard. Also probably shouldnt try SK Terran as a low level, it requires a great deal of multitasking and exceptional micro/macro to make it work. Stick with tanks or mech transition, when you get comfortable with macroing you can def switch out to SK terran(i prefer it more than mech personally) but until then id stay away from it The best way to learn army control, micro and macro is to exercise them instead of avoiding them
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