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On July 27 2017 17:14 Lucumo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 16:50 ionONE wrote: My first starcraft game was sc2, saw it advertised in late 2009. I was always a huge RTS fan, starting with dune 2000 and Age of Empires in 1998 but somehow didnt know starcraft/broodwar was a thing ... Damn, why didn't you watch Brood War on TV? It was there, along with CS 1.6, Fifa, Warcraft 3 and the like.
Chances to watch esports back then in Germany were very slim, the only TV show I can think of that might have covered something like this was GIGA.
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Yeah I didnt know esport was a thing for a very long time too and I played all the games. The general gaming press didnt cover esports at all.
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LoL and other popular games might've had an effect on it. I lost interest after WoL. I was more into playing Minecraft and LoL at the time. Of course now I'm all about watching BW games again. Loving the ASL.
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I'm surprised this thread still open after 24 hours
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similar to the arguments against allowing hotkey rebinding in bw, i just don't think that there was enough mechanical stress in the game, so every single game above a certain level started becoming exactly the same game. what i mean is, since it was so easy to macro perfectly like flash, if you took every terran above like C- on iccup or F on fish and put them on sc2, they would never miss a single step with macro, scvs, depots, mules, etc. so every game was mechanically playing like flash, which is cool for a while maybe, but it gets boring after a while since there is no variation between players. in broodwar the game is so difficult mechanically that there's a "scarcity of mechanical skill," and players actively have to make the decision to either macro or micro more, and they choose whatever avenue is more effective on a w/l% for them personally, since it wasn't a cut and dry decision most of the time. what this results in for pro players is you get players like jaedong and julyzerg who both have very different playstyles, both of which are still effective at a pro level, given their different outlook on the game and their different idiosyncratic skillsets.
This differentiation between players only becomes more apparent the more mechanical skill becomes scarce in players. if you watch two C level zerg players play on iccup, you'll see WILDLY different playstyles because they have such different takes on how to win the game (and different skillsets to apply those understandings of the game). This just makes bw really really volatile and fun to play at lower levels, because despite what people say games from D to B aren't all cheese or macro, there is definitely a large variation of weird ass playstyles made possible only by mechanical scarcity.
In sc2, i think the most true statement that i have heard is this: "the most fun anyone has in SC2 is in bronze," which i agree with. in bronze, everyone is still experiencing mechanical scarcity and as a result the builds are still wild and you can still win with different strategies. once you start moving up the ladder, people start thinking that strategy matters less because they'll do wild builds and get crushed by standard openers, which is a result of the strength of inexpensive defense in sc2 (salvageable bunkers, movable sunkens/queens, forcefield, etc) and the strength of macro that is normal in all of rts (more units = win lol). but in broodwar, that macro kicks in slower as you rise up the ranks because it takes so much more knowledge and finese to play perfectly, so weird strategies remain potent for a long time because low level macro players still make a lot of mistakes and get thrown off their game by rushes. so the bronze level honeymoon phase just doesn't really end until probably like E on fish and B or A on iccup, because macro players just aren't that comfortable in broodwar like they are on sc2.
This has two implications: the first being that it screws over low to mid level players when the easier macro is meant to HELP those players, and the second being that it artificially accelerates the development of meta strategies since the game is relatively more dependent on strategy since there is literally no mechanical barrier past 200 or 250 apm.
Silver to masters level players suffer since they're thrown into the situations that previously only like jaedong, flash, savior, effort, july, bisu, stork etc had to face: what do i do when i hit a player with mechanical perfection? You have to start REALLY caring about strategy and meta and timings, instead of just playing the game and waving your micro or macro dick around and crushing noobs in your own personal way. JD might be able to mess around vs a B level fish player, but when flash is in form you can be sure that he is spending his time developing/practicing specific builds to kill him, because he knows that he can't rely on his player skill alone. This aspect of fun being taken away really kills the scene and promotes ladder anxiety and the idea that "the game is fun to watch but shitty to play."
at a GM or pro level it sucks even more because literally all of your time better be spent studying strats, because your mechanical skill at the game is irrelevant since everyone is a mechanical god past GM. it also means that literally every player is the same and they're all doing the same strats, unless they're playing at a distinct disadvantage or doing something stupid. So imo, it hurts ALL aspects of the scene despite being intended to help the new players.
i won't comment on the state of the game past like WOL beta and or half of the way through WOL because it quickly became apparent back then that the game wasn't worth playing to me because the dev team didn't get it, but the lack of social features that WC3 and broodwar had was absolutely comical. also, shitting on BW's scene right after the matchfixing scandal to pave the way for sc2's scene didn't warm many hearts.
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On July 27 2017 15:30 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 14:37 opisska wrote: Nothing "wrecked" SC2. It's a great and fun game, for me much more interesting to both play and watch than broodwar. It doesn't have a huge following, but that's mostly the effect of comparing it with BW which was a unique cultural phenomenon of its time. Most people have since moved on to more social and casual games, that's just where the society is heading. But it still, after 7 years from launch, keeps a dedicated community that can raise 25 thousand bucks in an hour for a tournament. How many games can really say that?
I understand that shitting on SC2 is somewhat of a popular pastime in the BW forum, but all this talk about SC2 being a total failure is delusional. It did pretty good given the circumstances. Thus the "analysis" of ots failure is completely nonsensical. It was a complete fail, it never could replaced the original and that was its goal, It was so well sold because the BW hype. I remember when you often bashed BW and praise SC2 as the ultimate phenomenon in games history, but here you are in this forum, why?.
I come here to educate BW fans and clear their misunderstanding of SC2. I saw a thread falsely claiming that SC2 is "wrecked" and decided to briefly correct this errrorneous statement. I do not praise SC2 as the ultimate game, it's simply the game I enjoy the most. I have no problem with people enjoying BW more unless they a) shit on my game pointlessly or b) try to influence my gamr to be more like BW. The later has luckily been given up by most years ago, but I just don't see a reason to condone the former.
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On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place.
I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well.
Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it.
Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and they didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site.
Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site.
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On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there.
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On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there.
The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem.
Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do.
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On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there. The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem. Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do.
I am not sure what your point is, yes ofc people "kill" the game when they don't like it enough. I just told you that this isn't specific to the starcraft community though. It happens everywhere. Angry/disappointed customers complain about the product because they perceive there is a problem with it. It's a result, not the cause. You saying the starcraft community is somewhat special here seems absurd. YOu know what happened with lol? A lot of angry/disappointed dota people did the same things, it didn't matter though because there were just as many (if not more) people simply not giving a fuck about the negativity because they genuinely enjoyed league of legends. There also are people who genuinely enjoy sc2, but it's still fair to say that a lot of people did not and left because of that. Not because of people arguing on forums, that's sucha shitty excuse.
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On July 27 2017 22:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there. The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem. Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do. I am not sure what your point is, yes ofc people "kill" the game when they don't like it enough. I just told you that this isn't specific to the starcraft community though. It happens everywhere. Angry/disappointed customers complain about the product because they perceive there is a problem with it. It's a result, not the cause. You saying the starcraft community is somewhat special here seems absurd. YOu know what happened with lol? A lot of angry/disappointed dota people did the same things, it didn't matter though because there were just as many (if not more) people simply not giving a fuck about the negativity because they genuinely enjoyed league of legends. There also are people who genuinely enjoy sc2, but it's still fair to say that a lot of people did not and left because of that. Not because of people arguing on forums, that's sucha shitty excuse.
The question that was being asked is why is SC2 dying. I gave the correct answer. Is it special? Not really, it isn't, most games and most TV shows and most products die. It's special in the fact that I happen to like SC2 and I don't like that it's dying because of you, but that's on me. There is some amount of "specialness" in the fact that generally when people don't like a product, they tend to move on and go to other products rather than whine for years on end about how the product is bad on a fansite where so many "fans" agree with them that I end up being the toxic opinion, and thus facilitate its death. But again it's not that special, it can easily be explained.
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On July 27 2017 22:57 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 22:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there. The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem. Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do. I am not sure what your point is, yes ofc people "kill" the game when they don't like it enough. I just told you that this isn't specific to the starcraft community though. It happens everywhere. Angry/disappointed customers complain about the product because they perceive there is a problem with it. It's a result, not the cause. You saying the starcraft community is somewhat special here seems absurd. YOu know what happened with lol? A lot of angry/disappointed dota people did the same things, it didn't matter though because there were just as many (if not more) people simply not giving a fuck about the negativity because they genuinely enjoyed league of legends. There also are people who genuinely enjoy sc2, but it's still fair to say that a lot of people did not and left because of that. Not because of people arguing on forums, that's sucha shitty excuse. The question that was being asked is why is SC2 dying. I gave the correct answer. Is it special? Not really, it isn't, most games and most TV shows and most products die. It's special in the fact that I happen to like SC2 and I don't like that it's dying because of you, but that's on me. There is some amount of "specialness" in the fact that generally when people don't like a product, they tend to move on and go to other products rather than whine for years on end about how the product is bad on a fansite where so many "fans" agree with them that I end up being the toxic opinion, and thus facilitate its death. But again it's not that special, it can easily be explained.
People who actually couldn't stand sc2 at all moved on, that's the reason we don't have the same player- and viewerbase of a few years back anymore. You exaggerate the issue a lot, yes there is discussion about the game and there are critical voices for sure. But again, that happens in every other community as well. Noone is ever happy 100% with the product and when a lot of people meet on a discussion forum, well things will be discussed. If you want everyone to leave who would change things with the game then you might have a problem tbh. BW is the exception here, most communities don't pretend their game is the work of god
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On July 27 2017 23:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 22:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there. The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem. Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do. I am not sure what your point is, yes ofc people "kill" the game when they don't like it enough. I just told you that this isn't specific to the starcraft community though. It happens everywhere. Angry/disappointed customers complain about the product because they perceive there is a problem with it. It's a result, not the cause. You saying the starcraft community is somewhat special here seems absurd. YOu know what happened with lol? A lot of angry/disappointed dota people did the same things, it didn't matter though because there were just as many (if not more) people simply not giving a fuck about the negativity because they genuinely enjoyed league of legends. There also are people who genuinely enjoy sc2, but it's still fair to say that a lot of people did not and left because of that. Not because of people arguing on forums, that's sucha shitty excuse. The question that was being asked is why is SC2 dying. I gave the correct answer. Is it special? Not really, it isn't, most games and most TV shows and most products die. It's special in the fact that I happen to like SC2 and I don't like that it's dying because of you, but that's on me. There is some amount of "specialness" in the fact that generally when people don't like a product, they tend to move on and go to other products rather than whine for years on end about how the product is bad on a fansite where so many "fans" agree with them that I end up being the toxic opinion, and thus facilitate its death. But again it's not that special, it can easily be explained. People who actually couldn't stand sc2 at all moved on, that's the reason we don't have the same player- and viewerbase of a few years back anymore. You exaggerate the issue a lot, yes there is discussion about the game and there are critical voices for sure. But again, that happens in every other community as well. Noone is ever happy 100% with the product and when a lot of people meet on a discussion forum, well things will be discussed. If you want everyone to leave who would change things with the game then you might have a problem tbh. BW is the exception here, most communities don't pretend their game is the work of god
I've been on this forum long enough and been disgusted by it often enough to not just accept your claim that I'm exaggerating about it. And it's by far the best forum associated with SC2.
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On July 27 2017 23:15 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 23:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there. The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem. Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do. I am not sure what your point is, yes ofc people "kill" the game when they don't like it enough. I just told you that this isn't specific to the starcraft community though. It happens everywhere. Angry/disappointed customers complain about the product because they perceive there is a problem with it. It's a result, not the cause. You saying the starcraft community is somewhat special here seems absurd. YOu know what happened with lol? A lot of angry/disappointed dota people did the same things, it didn't matter though because there were just as many (if not more) people simply not giving a fuck about the negativity because they genuinely enjoyed league of legends. There also are people who genuinely enjoy sc2, but it's still fair to say that a lot of people did not and left because of that. Not because of people arguing on forums, that's sucha shitty excuse. The question that was being asked is why is SC2 dying. I gave the correct answer. Is it special? Not really, it isn't, most games and most TV shows and most products die. It's special in the fact that I happen to like SC2 and I don't like that it's dying because of you, but that's on me. There is some amount of "specialness" in the fact that generally when people don't like a product, they tend to move on and go to other products rather than whine for years on end about how the product is bad on a fansite where so many "fans" agree with them that I end up being the toxic opinion, and thus facilitate its death. But again it's not that special, it can easily be explained. People who actually couldn't stand sc2 at all moved on, that's the reason we don't have the same player- and viewerbase of a few years back anymore. You exaggerate the issue a lot, yes there is discussion about the game and there are critical voices for sure. But again, that happens in every other community as well. Noone is ever happy 100% with the product and when a lot of people meet on a discussion forum, well things will be discussed. If you want everyone to leave who would change things with the game then you might have a problem tbh. BW is the exception here, most communities don't pretend their game is the work of god I've been on this forum long enough and been disgusted by it often enough to not just accept your claim that I'm exaggerating about it. And it's by far the best forum associated with SC2. So you are extremely unhappy with the product (this forum; the people here) but still didn't move on? Srsly though i think you are exaggerating. Are you part of other communities as well? The csgo community for example regularly has threads dedicated to how bad valve is at developing the game, etc. It really doesn't matter in the big picture. What does matter is if enough people have enough fun playing the game. "Enough" is obviously highly subjective here. In sc2's case sc2unmasked says there are about 80k 1vs1 ladder players atm. I am one of those and still would like to change the game. It's simply the best option i have atm for my 1vs1 rts experience. In the end sc2 has to compete against every other game out there because every consumer only has so much time to spend on his gaming/entertainment. Some people would rather use their time to play csgo, lol, dota2, or any other game there is. The perceived quality matters, not if some forum poster is critical about the game from time to time.
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Ninas reply to avilo is oddly satisfying. Probably because its nice to see that BW players wont put up with his shit and because she is right. Avilo should stay in the sc2 community and continue spreading his cancerous poison there instead of here.
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On July 27 2017 23:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2017 23:15 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 23:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:57 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote: It's dying because of you. Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place. I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well. Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it. Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site. Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site. Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc. That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be. If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue. WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play. The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there. The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem. Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do. I am not sure what your point is, yes ofc people "kill" the game when they don't like it enough. I just told you that this isn't specific to the starcraft community though. It happens everywhere. Angry/disappointed customers complain about the product because they perceive there is a problem with it. It's a result, not the cause. You saying the starcraft community is somewhat special here seems absurd. YOu know what happened with lol? A lot of angry/disappointed dota people did the same things, it didn't matter though because there were just as many (if not more) people simply not giving a fuck about the negativity because they genuinely enjoyed league of legends. There also are people who genuinely enjoy sc2, but it's still fair to say that a lot of people did not and left because of that. Not because of people arguing on forums, that's sucha shitty excuse. The question that was being asked is why is SC2 dying. I gave the correct answer. Is it special? Not really, it isn't, most games and most TV shows and most products die. It's special in the fact that I happen to like SC2 and I don't like that it's dying because of you, but that's on me. There is some amount of "specialness" in the fact that generally when people don't like a product, they tend to move on and go to other products rather than whine for years on end about how the product is bad on a fansite where so many "fans" agree with them that I end up being the toxic opinion, and thus facilitate its death. But again it's not that special, it can easily be explained. People who actually couldn't stand sc2 at all moved on, that's the reason we don't have the same player- and viewerbase of a few years back anymore. You exaggerate the issue a lot, yes there is discussion about the game and there are critical voices for sure. But again, that happens in every other community as well. Noone is ever happy 100% with the product and when a lot of people meet on a discussion forum, well things will be discussed. If you want everyone to leave who would change things with the game then you might have a problem tbh. BW is the exception here, most communities don't pretend their game is the work of god I've been on this forum long enough and been disgusted by it often enough to not just accept your claim that I'm exaggerating about it. And it's by far the best forum associated with SC2. So you are extremely unhappy with the product (this forum; the people here) but still didn't move on?
Your criticism is valid, I should move on from this community and the fact that I can't is something that I dislike about myself. Whenever I start watching SC2 again, I get enthusiastic and I come back here. I'd rather I didn't. I'm not always acting rationally.
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On July 27 2017 20:48 Endymion wrote: similar to the arguments against allowing hotkey rebinding in bw, i just don't think that there was enough mechanical stress in the game, so every single game above a certain level started becoming exactly the same game. what i mean is, since it was so easy to macro perfectly like flash, if you took every terran above like C- on iccup or F on fish and put them on sc2, they would never miss a single step with macro, scvs, depots, mules, etc. so every game was mechanically playing like flash, which is cool for a while maybe, but it gets boring after a while since there is no variation between players. in broodwar the game is so difficult mechanically that there's a "scarcity of mechanical skill," and players actively have to make the decision to either macro or micro more, and they choose whatever avenue is more effective on a w/l% for them personally, since it wasn't a cut and dry decision most of the time. what this results in for pro players is you get players like jaedong and julyzerg who both have very different playstyles, both of which are still effective at a pro level, given their different outlook on the game and their different idiosyncratic skillsets.
at a GM or pro level it sucks even more because literally all of your time better be spent studying strats, because your mechanical skill at the game is irrelevant since everyone is a mechanical god past GM. it also means that literally every player is the same and they're all doing the same strats, unless they're playing at a distinct disadvantage or doing something stupid. So imo, it hurts ALL aspects of the scene despite being intended to help the new players.
This is just not true at all...even the best pros miss macro steps in SC2. Where do you get the idea that everyone could easily master SC2 mechanically? It's complete bullshit. And pros have many distinct playstyles. Bly is not Scarlett who is not Nerchio who is not Elazer. All foreign zergs, all different playstyles.
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I mean it was just a tease but at the end of the day you have to decide if you get enough pleasure out of it for you to be worth it. Personally i think no matter what gaming community you look at, you will always see lots of negativity. It's true for the big ones as well (dota, lol, csgo, etc).
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On July 27 2017 23:42 The_Red_Viper wrote: I mean it was just a tease but at the end of the day you have to decide if you get enough pleasure out of it for you to be worth it. Personally i think no matter what gaming community you look at, you will always see lots of negativity. It's true for the big ones as well (dota, lol, csgo, etc).
And in a few years when dota will die people will be asking why and wondering if it was that nerf or that buff. But it'll be because the negative voices have overtaken the others. It'll be the case then and it's the case now.
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You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)
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