Been having a bit of trouble with PVZ, primarily because I think it exposes my lack of multitasking/scouting ability (due to the high number of possible variations in the matchup), and also lack of game sense. I am still a noob after all (just started playing in May, and play maybe 3-4 games a week?, am at ~1100 MMR atm).
Anyway, I'm looking for feedback on some high-value next things to focus on as far as scouting/responding in PVZ.
For context, I don't really have a strong read on ZVP builds, other than watching out for speedling runbys and mass muta (which I've died to a few times in the past). I also pretty much only do a +1 speedlot/sair (aka neobisu) build, since it's the only one I've quasi-mastered so far, and am not sure what other builds are good to add to my arsenal.
Anyway, here are two replays that illustrate the struggles I have with scouting and responding.
(attempting to do the) +1 speedlot/sair (aka neobisu) build in both.
Notes/Analysis: * keep probe alive long enough to see natural expo hatch, pool and lings pop. * lings kill my scouting probe, i see more 2 (i think it was 6), respond by throwing down one more cannon and immediately send out another probe. probe dies before reaching their base, but it nicely delays the lings. * first sair pops out at ~6 min. scouts lair and spire; see scourge kill my sair * lings parked outside my natural * i freak out about the scourge and stay in my base to wait for critical mass of 6+ sairs * i also remember being a bit suspicious that at +7 min i still haven’t seen any hydra. i’m not used to this. * my templar archives finishes at ~8:43 (or 59/74). feels late. * send out 3 sairs to kill overlord parked outside my natural, get sniped by scourge after i kill the overlord * i send out my +1 speedlots to poke - kill all the lings on the map * i send out my +1 speedlots with a probe at ~11:50 to take my third. kill all the lings, throw down a pylon. i remember being surprised at how strong the lings were. push the remaining speedlots and 4 goons awkwardly out in front my natural third * finally have critical-ish mass of 5 sair at 12:29, push out and kill another overlord parked outside my natural third on the far side to protect my third going up. also send out a DT to poke (because i still have no idea where his third and/or fourth bases are). i think i also sent out my speedlots to poke at the map, and at this point (~12:58), he sends a HUGE force of lurkers (1 control group) and speedlings (2 control groups) to my natural. my speedlots get awkwardly intercepted by the incoming force and mostly melt to the lurkers and lings. my goons desperately come back from my third but i forgot to bring my observer out! i throw down 2 (relatively well placed) storms, but it’s just not enough. pretty much everything dies, and it’s pretty much gg here.
i think i lost this game primarily because i was too passive (with scouting and my speedlots), and failed to correctly read and respond to his lurker ling timing. my questions: * was it a lurker ling build? is that a thing? if so, what were the tells? was it the lack of hydra early on? if i hadn’t chickened out and kept my sair in my base, what should i have been looking for? * what was the right counter? i’m guessing my low HT count and late obs were a key reason why i lost?
Notes/Analysis: * i scout late lair, i think speedling runby * macro mistake: missed gas after gate, i think because i was too busy micro-ing/scouting. this holds up the stargate tech, which delays scouting options (lost my probe) * i hold the first ling rush at ~4.5 mins or so (although it kills one cannon) * i think it’s over, and resume to fix my broken build order (stargate is super late because no gas, so i’m in the dark) * i did send my zealot out to scout, perhaps on the wrong path? left the gap open. if i’d sent out another probe to poke, i might have been able to hold (adding more probes too)? but probably should have added more cannons? * 2 more control groups of speedlings come at me at 6 mins, and i’m toast
i think i lost this game primarily because i failed to correctly predict and respond to a speedling all in. questions: * was it a speedling allin? if so, what were the tells? was it the late lair + natural expansion hatch? * what was the appropriate response? (how many) more cannons? * when the next wave of speedlings came at 6 mins, was there anything i could have done to hold?
General questions: * What are some high-value things to try and predict, in general and maybe especially at my level? What are the tells to look for? * Any tips on getting better at scouting/reading? Should I try and play some ZVPs to get a better feel for things?
If Zerg goes for a Mass Ling Bust you can do a lot. The actualy adaption is straight forward and really easy. A braindead monkey can do it. The scouting however might be hard. To successfully bust, a Zerg needs to research the Speed Upgrade. Hence, seeing an Extractor without it being mined, as well as fast Zerglings is one of the many hints. Furthermore, Zerg will not continue to mine if he's smart, not building a Hydralisk Den or a Lair. Another hint. Signs summed up:
Extractor, not being mined Fast Zerglings Two or three Hatcheries on two or three bases very low Drone count no Lair no Hydra Den
The thing which makes scouting hard is that Zerg can hide his newly trained Zerglings, especially if his Hatcheries are on three bases. He can kill your Probe relatively early, that's why you should send out a second Probe soon.
The bigger danger is to understimate Zerg. You usally follow up with Corsairs, which might give you the false positive of killing his Overlords fast enough. You won't. He'll still be able to pump 24 Lings in a minute or so, going for a second bust. Really, it's his only option to fully recover. In this case, burning buildings have to be replaced as soon as possibly. If the Gateway and the Forge is in red health, better add another Cannon or two, keep your Probes on the small points Zerglings can pass. Better be safe than sorry. Honestly, you do rarely die to the first wave, but the second or even third.
Also, before you attack, be sure to have enough Zealots. Teching up and killing Zerg a few minutes later is better than moving out, losing all Zealots and being in the same situation all over again. That's against you. Without +1 and poor micromanagement this is a risk factor. One Archon, a DT or a larger army, or a Reaver drop - anything works better than a direct counter, even though that's what most likely feels natural.
I really think you could of held it off if you hadn't let the zerglings get in and just got a couple more guys/cannons, and sent a probe to scout instead of speed-less zealots. You can check if he got just enough gas for speedlings and then cut drones.
As far as the fighting spirit game, I think you should of just scouted everything with the corsairs, saw the hidden base + hydra den and started making high templar/archons.
On November 03 2017 13:26 f00_ wrote: For the zergling all-in on arcadia, I think you would of held it off if you just hadn't let them get in + built another cannon.
If Zerg goes for a Mass Ling Bust you can do a lot. The actualy adaption is straight forward and really easy. A braindead monkey can do it. The scouting however might be hard. To successfully bust, a Zerg needs to research the Speed Upgrade. Hence, seeing an Extractor without it being mined, as well as fast Zerglings is one of the many hints. Furthermore, Zerg will not continue to mine if he's smart, not building a Hydralisk Den or a Lair. Another hint. Signs summed up:
Extractor, not being mined Fast Zerglings Two or three Hatcheries on two or three bases very low Drone count no Lair no Hydra Den
The thing which makes scouting hard is that Zerg can hide his newly trained Zerglings, especially if his Hatcheries are on three bases. He can kill your Probe relatively early, that's why you should send out a second Probe soon.
The bigger danger is to understimate Zerg. You usally follow up with Corsairs, which might give you the false positive of killing his Overlords fast enough. You won't. He'll still be able to pump 24 Lings in a minute or so, going for a second bust. Really, it's his only option to fully recover. In this case, burning buildings have to be replaced as soon as possibly. If the Gateway and the Forge is in red health, better add another Cannon or two, keep your Probes on the small points Zerglings can pass. Better be safe than sorry. Honestly, you do rarely die to the first wave, but the second or even third.
Also, before you attack, be sure to have enough Zealots. Teching up and killing Zerg a few minutes later is better than moving out, losing all Zealots and being in the same situation all over again. That's against you. Without +1 and poor micromanagement this is a risk factor. One Archon, a DT or a larger army, or a Reaver drop - anything works better than a direct counter, even though that's what most likely feels natural.
I really think you could of held it off if you hadn't let the zerglings get in and just got a couple more guys/cannons, and sent a probe to scout instead of speed-less zealots. You can check if he got just enough gas for speedlings and then cut drones.
Ah great find! I had read that before, but this was way back before I could even pull off any scouting without completely tanking my macro XP Thanks for the (re)pointer!
As far as the fighting spirit game, I think you should of just scouted everything with the corsairs, saw the hidden base + hydra den and started making high templar/archons.
Yeah, just a few more HT would have been such a difference maker!
He is playing a soft counter to your build. I know you're trying to go for Neo Bisu build but it kinda isn't quite right. The build you did would be better matched against a player who pooled early and was very aggressive with zerglings while transitioned into hydras. It looked like you were setting up to defend against a 3 base hydra attack that never came.
Watching some of Bisu's more recent game even he doesn't exactly follow the build that is named after him. It's very dependent on what the zerg is doing.
The biggest mistake you made was not taking your third fast enough. After that you were basically out of the game. He took his third and 4th behind a bunch of spines.
He could not have stopped you from taking a third with just a few zealots as defense. He didn't get overlord speed until hive so he couldn't even really attack if you built DT's. He was just being greedy AF. You either need to find a way to punish him for it or match it.
3 hatch into spire is pretty vulnerable to any early zealot pressure.
But it's great if the protoss is going to build corsairs and not many zealots. It's important to find a way around this. Find a way to be aggressive.
Pick times to push out with your zealots even if you don't commit to an attack.
Force him to build more zerglings and spines. When plus 1 attack finishes you may even be able to kill him if he is still only defending with zerglings and spines.
Use DTs.
Part of the reason corsairs are such a good choice against zerg is because you can kill their detection. Your first corsair should hunt overlords near your base after you scout with it. Before overlord speed finishes you can have map control at least on your side of the map. You can take a third if he can't get an overlord there. Just make sure storm finishes before he has overlord speed.
Use Drop/Arbiters/Archons
If you've never had a protoss recall archons, zealots and templar into your main as a zerg player you may not realize how painful it is. Especially if he has corsairs. Not only do you have to somehow re-position a bunch of your lurkers, you also have to fight your way up a ramp to do it. And you need detection as well, so you're losing supply when overlords inevitably die and you're losing your tech buildings and possibly even your hive. He just sits there and slaughters zerglings that single file up the ramp as the lurkers durp around at the bottom trying to squeeze their way past zerglings.
This is the way to kill a zerg who has lurker/spine at all the choke points. Never attack into his spines/lurkers unless he's basically already dead.
If you have forgotten arbiter tech then going for a bunch of shuttles can work too but it's a bit riskier since you can lose a lot of units if they get spotted.
As far as the ending of the game. You could have and should have had more templar out and observers in position to defend his attack.
Honestly when playing at a low level, it's so hard to use corsairs correctly that it can be a good idea to skip it. You can get a faster +1 speedlot push out, throw some cannons down when you leave for mutas, and get an earlier templar archive for an earlier archon (or grab a few goons). If when you push out you start seeing mutas (they will have to be used to not die, and if you have a cannon you're safe for awhile), then throw down a stargate (or work out when you want to get this later corsair anyways for safety).
This style isn't seen as much on the pro levels since, well, Bisu doesn't do it: he likes his corsairs. But others like Reach seem to have a lot of success with it. Really there's just a soft counter that some players like Jaedong can be so good at muta control that an archon defense gets destroyed before you can get some corsairs up if they did decide to go muta (but since hydra is so common, it's still a decent strategy at that level IMO, sometimes you have to make a choice!). However, at low levels you never see this, so corsairs are less crucial.
Thanks for the detailed input! Definitely want to make more use of DTs, and also don't really have a good sense for when is early/late to take my 3rd (I do it when I feel "safe" AND remember XP). Also am not super great at applying pressure intelligently. Knowing that the goal is to keep them honest and force lings/static instead of tech/expanding seems like a helpful thing to keep in mind.
On November 11 2017 02:21 rackdude wrote: Honestly when playing at a low level, it's so hard to use corsairs correctly that it can be a good idea to skip it. You can get a faster +1 speedlot push out, throw some cannons down when you leave for mutas, and get an earlier templar archive for an earlier archon (or grab a few goons). If when you push out you start seeing mutas (they will have to be used to not die, and if you have a cannon you're safe for awhile), then throw down a stargate (or work out when you want to get this later corsair anyways for safety).
This style isn't seen as much on the pro levels since, well, Bisu doesn't do it: he likes his corsairs. But others like Reach seem to have a lot of success with it. Really there's just a soft counter that some players like Jaedong can be so good at muta control that an archon defense gets destroyed before you can get some corsairs up if they did decide to go muta (but since hydra is so common, it's still a decent strategy at that level IMO, sometimes you have to make a choice!). However, at low levels you never see this, so corsairs are less crucial.
I think I might have been overreacting to getting rekted by mutas in the past. Here too I was wanting to get more sairs because I was afraid of the scourge, because I don't have as much control. Do you suggest I skip sairs entirely and just use my pressure as a double for scouting? I guess if I don't see many units on the map or at the natural, I might sniff out mutas and respond accordingly? Thinking through the timings, skipping the stargate, +1 air and sair could really allow me to push out much earlier with more zealots (maybe as early as 4-5 min mark), with +1 ground and possibly even leg speed soon after?
The larger point I think is thinking through how to balance learning what's best at the pro level with what I can do now. This sair thing is a good example. I wonder about others. For example, my reaver control and multitasking is just not there yet, so while practicing 1 gate reaver, I realized it just wasn't worth it atm until I get those skills up to par: I often don't deal nearly enough damage to be worth it, plus let my macro slip too much while I'm micro-ing the reaver. The balance is to not learn bad habits that won't work at higher levels maybe? Or avoiding learning crucial fundamental skills? I wonder what other examples there are and/or if someone has written a guide/post on this. Could be really helpful for noobs trying to level up!
Sairs have a lot of purpose in PvZ, but using them is taxing.
Consider this: 1)Sairs deny overlord map vision, Z has to use lings instead and those can also be driven off/not everywhere. 2)If zerg went 3hat hydra, sairs can clear nearby overlords to let you win some extra time with DTs, but more importantly, they allow you to scout if/when they went back to droning - you don't want to overcommit on defense either, and this is something that is really hard to do without sairs. 3)Sairs can pin down part of hydras to protect overlords, making them unable to move out with everything. 4)Pressuring a hydra/sunken line with zealots, you can take a poor trade on zealots if it allows you to hit overlords because hydras are busy. 5)Mutalisk threat is greately reduced. And playing against a good zerg with great control without sairs is a nightmare - when they can kill your zealot/archon force mid map by sniping archons while properly macroing, it gets a bit silly. Also harder for them to do stuff like make a few (f.e. 5) mutas to defend from zealots(with a wall-in/sunken) and then go snipe probes, etc. 6)Sairs and DT force a spore per base, or a large hydra force(that is hard to move out) 7)They also force overlord speed, because otherwise you can take a very fast 3rd; that's how the first sair/dt variation played out, taking the 3rd nexus with first DTs out. 8)Sairs protect observers much better than goons. 9)It is noticeably easier to defend HTs from mutalisk snipes 10)They protect you lategame from mass drops 11)Constant scouting information to see what zerg is producing and where he is expanding 12)Vision denial for zerg makes all your drop plays that much better etc...
So there's a lot of ways to use corsairs, but if you do not have the mechanics to keep this up, then you're not getting paid off on the investment. Working on learning to use them is good, but depending on your current level, perhaps skipping them for now other than 1-2 for scouting, can be okay for now.
The larger point I think is thinking through how to balance learning what's best at the pro level with what I can do now. This sair thing is a good example. I wonder about others. For example, my reaver control and multitasking is just not there yet, so while practicing 1 gate reaver, I realized it just wasn't worth it atm until I get those skills up to par: I often don't deal nearly enough damage to be worth it, plus let my macro slip too much while I'm micro-ing the reaver. The balance is to not learn bad habits that won't work at higher levels maybe? Or avoiding learning crucial fundamental skills? I wonder what other examples there are and/or if someone has written a guide/post on this. Could be really helpful for noobs trying to level up!
This might solve your dilemma.
If you want to just win a few games don't take this advice, but if you have larger aspirations keep reading.
This is advice from an Olympic weightlifting coach.
The athlete asks the coach where to sweep the weight as it is pulled up past her legs. The coach says, "I don't care right now. I want you to do exactly the same every time. Then you can decide if you want to take it higher or lower. You need to be in control of the exercise and right now you're not. It's your brain that decides if you're going to lift good or not. Not me, not your muscles, your head. So we need to train your head."
This can be applied to Starcraft. To be a great player you need to train your mind to be consistent first and then later you can make adjustments to fine tune strategies. When you can execute perfectly then you will be able to make adjustments to win against even the best players.
Starcraft is a complex task. Divide it into smaller tasks and use deliberate practice to master them. Be focused, deliberate and systematic. It doesn't matter if you win. It only matters that you improve. Winning is a side effect of improvement.
Don't worry about how your strategy would work against Jaedong. If you make it that high, you'll be ready for him.
On November 11 2017 03:25 chozen86 wrote: Thanks for the detailed input! Definitely want to make more use of DTs, and also don't really have a good sense for when is early/late to take my 3rd (I do it when I feel "safe" AND remember XP). Also am not super great at applying pressure intelligently. Knowing that the goal is to keep them honest and force lings/static instead of tech/expanding seems like a helpful thing to keep in mind.
On November 11 2017 02:21 rackdude wrote: Honestly when playing at a low level, it's so hard to use corsairs correctly that it can be a good idea to skip it. You can get a faster +1 speedlot push out, throw some cannons down when you leave for mutas, and get an earlier templar archive for an earlier archon (or grab a few goons). If when you push out you start seeing mutas (they will have to be used to not die, and if you have a cannon you're safe for awhile), then throw down a stargate (or work out when you want to get this later corsair anyways for safety).
This style isn't seen as much on the pro levels since, well, Bisu doesn't do it: he likes his corsairs. But others like Reach seem to have a lot of success with it. Really there's just a soft counter that some players like Jaedong can be so good at muta control that an archon defense gets destroyed before you can get some corsairs up if they did decide to go muta (but since hydra is so common, it's still a decent strategy at that level IMO, sometimes you have to make a choice!). However, at low levels you never see this, so corsairs are less crucial.
I think I might have been overreacting to getting rekted by mutas in the past. Here too I was wanting to get more sairs because I was afraid of the scourge, because I don't have as much control. Do you suggest I skip sairs entirely and just use my pressure as a double for scouting? I guess if I don't see many units on the map or at the natural, I might sniff out mutas and respond accordingly? Thinking through the timings, skipping the stargate, +1 air and sair could really allow me to push out much earlier with more zealots (maybe as early as 4-5 min mark), with +1 ground and possibly even leg speed soon after?
The larger point I think is thinking through how to balance learning what's best at the pro level with what I can do now. This sair thing is a good example. I wonder about others. For example, my reaver control and multitasking is just not there yet, so while practicing 1 gate reaver, I realized it just wasn't worth it atm until I get those skills up to par: I often don't deal nearly enough damage to be worth it, plus let my macro slip too much while I'm micro-ing the reaver. The balance is to not learn bad habits that won't work at higher levels maybe? Or avoiding learning crucial fundamental skills? I wonder what other examples there are and/or if someone has written a guide/post on this. Could be really helpful for noobs trying to level up!
Well, Bisu has success with his style but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best at the pro level. Not all pros even use that style. Here's Snow doing a variant of what I discussed against Larva:
You can see that he gets +1 and legs here before stargate, and that sets him up for a great midgame and a free 3rd + 4th base (only to botch the lategame pvz like he always does...). Note that this isn't skipping sairs entirely: he gets the stargate right after the early +1 and legs, but he rushes for a quicker push instead of a quicker sair, and against most Zergs that aren't Larva this can be deadly (even against the infamously defensive Larva he got to the mineral line and killed a bunch of drones). Again, just because Bisu doesn't do this doesn't mean it's not a perfectly fine way to play the game. It's a strong push, has fallbacks for its weaknesses, and sets up for the lategame by allowing you to expand behind the push.
On November 11 2017 10:19 Soulforged wrote: So there's a lot of ways to use corsairs, but if you do not have the mechanics to keep this up, then you're not getting paid off on the investment. Working on learning to use them is good, but depending on your current level, perhaps skipping them for now other than 1-2 for scouting, can be okay for now.
BeST does this in all of his PvZs and he does just fine. IMO he tends to make so little use out of his corsairs that he should stop doing the stargate first build anyways.
The larger point I think is thinking through how to balance learning what's best at the pro level with what I can do now. This sair thing is a good example. I wonder about others. For example, my reaver control and multitasking is just not there yet, so while practicing 1 gate reaver, I realized it just wasn't worth it atm until I get those skills up to par: I often don't deal nearly enough damage to be worth it, plus let my macro slip too much while I'm micro-ing the reaver. The balance is to not learn bad habits that won't work at higher levels maybe? Or avoiding learning crucial fundamental skills? I wonder what other examples there are and/or if someone has written a guide/post on this. Could be really helpful for noobs trying to level up!
This might solve your dilemma.
If you want to just win a few games don't take this advice, but if you have larger aspirations keep reading.
This is advice from an Olympic weightlifting coach.
The athlete asks the coach where to sweep the weight as it is pulled up past her legs. The coach says, "I don't care right now. I want you to do exactly the same every time. Then you can decide if you want to take it higher or lower. You need to be in control of the exercise and right now you're not. It's your brain that decides if you're going to lift good or not. Not me, not your muscles, your head. So we need to train your head."
This can be applied to Starcraft. To be a great player you need to train your mind to be consistent first and then later you can make adjustments to fine tune strategies. When you can execute perfectly then you will be able to make adjustments to win against even the best players.
Starcraft is a complex task. Divide it into smaller tasks and use deliberate practice to master them. Be focused, deliberate and systematic. It doesn't matter if you win. It only matters that you improve. Winning is a side effect of improvement.
Don't worry about how your strategy would work against Jaedong. If you make it that high, you'll be ready for him.
Agreed. Starcraft is about building your own style. I mean, look at Larva. For a long time he was considered "bad" for a progamer. He started winning by, not dropping his own style, but refining his playstyle. His ZvP is now this intricate defensive style that he has mastered, and it's a way that you don't see Jaedong or Effort play. But that doesn't matter: any style is high level if you consistently win. They all take the same core mechanics, but re-work the emphasis to be built around what the player is most comfortable with.
Thanks @rackdude for all the great feedback! I've been experimenting with skipping/delaying sairs, and it's given me a lot of breathing room. I just don't have the APM for that yet. Building up my multitasking ability in other ways, but until I have the APM, I'm just going to incorporate sair on an as-needed basis (e.g., against mass muta, or to do sair/DT).
Have also been struggling with the sheer complexity of the matchup, and feel like I'm just now starting to get a handle on it. Scouting in the beginning isn't just about detecting early aggression, but also about finding their expansions, looking for holes in their defense (watching my replays, I often fail to my focus my attacks on their weakest points).
One of the first PVZs I've won where it was at least sort of standard - all others I've won I feel like it's basically been against unorthodox/noob strategies - have lost a lot to basic hydra busts and neo sauron. Here I think I basically won by defending my 3rd and denying his 4th. Love pushing out with +1 speedlots, although in this case I was countered by him massing muta (I think I responded ok by massing goons and adding cannons - at least minimized the value he got from the harrass).
1. Speedling all in or runby heavy investment in lings - obviously did he get ling speed, and what's he making out of those larva. If your probe continues to see lings pop out more than 6-8 then that's a red flag to be wary of possible ling runby or aggression. I suggest practice your wall ins and keep a habit of always blocking entrances even small gaps with probes if you don't have enough zealots to plug the in-between pylon gateway holes if you suspect this strat. And as for building placement if you can help it, forge should always be below gateway for ling tight wall. If the forge is side by side the gateway completely, then just plug the hole with a probe and later zealots.
2. 3 Hatch Hydra all in - simply keep your probe scouting alive or hide probe somewhere on map and go in around 5 mins at his natural to see what pops out of his eggs. If your probe doesn't come in at a time where hydras popped out and you got unlucky timing, then you can always see his drone count and larvae count. If his drone count is low he had to invest those larvae somewhere, and if his larva isn't being spent , he is either bad at macro or is saving for hydras/units.
3. 3 Hatch Muta -You can easily scout this with your 1st corsair so no extra thing needed to consider. Your 1st corsair with standard builds go even with 1 gate pressure into FE you should get 1st corsair around 5:45 and be able to scout spire just about done. If saved up larvae on his hatcheries and has 2 gas, expect muta or a bad macro player. Also possible lurker focus.
4. Standard Macro builds -You see the obvious zerg wall in structural placements and sunk colonies and he is droning hard and getting 5-6 hatcheries. He gets a few scourge to keep your corsairs in check.
So I'd suggest upgrading your anti-cheese/all in radar so you don't lose to stupid shit and so you can get in some real macro game practice. It personally annoys me to lose to that shit, so up to you.
So the 1st 2 scenarios in that list it makes it crucial to keep your scouting probe alive. You can even pressure with a few zealots early on to get a sense or feel what zerg is up to.
Most of the time I practice the 1 gate zealot pressure into FE build rather than just straight forge FE. Forge FE is predictable and passive but slightly more economical I guess. But it doesn't slow your tech by that much unless you found an opportunity to do more dmg with your zealots and kept up the zealot production. But this opening requires a bit of multitasking so for now I'd master the forge FE. It seems very hard for protoss to do some real dmg with their zealots anyways, most progamer zergs can micro the hell out of zealots even when zealots hide behind the mineral line for reduced surface area of contact. Zerglings are just so cost efficient against zealots until +1.
Just think like Flash, you slowly eliminate possible path trees of what your opponent is up to based on the clues and what you scout. If 2nd gas is taken early, that could mean a few things, either muta investment or lurkers since they are gas heavy. If not a lot of drones being produced, he either is bad at macro or built army. So then you check his larvae at hatcheries, he spent his larvae, ok then if not drones, it has to be early army investment. What could he possibly be doing? - With 1 gas? That eliminates the choices to lings and hydras. Get the idea? Eventually this will all come like 2nd nature to you, and you won't really have to think about it heavily and you'll be like a protoss version of Flash!
Another update: I'm really starting to get comfortable with skipping/delaying sair. Here is another PVZ win that also resembles a normal game (although upon reviewing the replay I couldn't quite make out what my opponent was doing - didn't look standard or even all that effective to me - not sure what he was doing with all his APM): http://bwreplays.com/dg2nz/dl
Some things I liked: * Kept probe scout alive long enough to see 6 lings pop, appropriately add 1 more cannon, safe from ling runby (although my gate first was in reaction to what i thought was a 4/5 pool, since i didn't see another overlord) * Actively scouted for 3rd - but failed to check other main (probably would have been easier with sair) - turned out ok because he just droned up and sunkened up there in a sort of odd way * Finally used proper army positioning instead of charging on dual bridges * Got to mid-game deathball * Nice use of storm
Not quite as good/happy: * Core was delayed, which delayed legs - missed +1 speedlot timing * Super delayed 3rd * Really not sure what build opponent was doing. 3 base, 4 hatch, has lair, but skipped spire and had very delayed lurkers - takes away from my win a bit, although maybe I threw him off with my early pressure?
Just watched that replay and here are some good things I have to say before I go over some tips to improve.
-Probe scouting was decent at your level, keep it up. -I agree with your good use of storms on the lurkers and hydras at the ramp near your 3rd. -You stayed ahead of the zerg in terms of bases.
Now for the things I noticed that I could point out for improvement. I don't mean to be harsh with the criticism but I hope it helps you out!
(Game sense) The 2nd cannon was too pre-emptive and 3rd cannon was not necessary at all based on your scouting. This delayed your tech. It takes some game sense to know how many cannons you need based on what you scouted, but here's what you should've taken in when your probe was in the zerg's main and looking for the 3rd base at the min only, which I can understand alerted you to possible cheese. It is highly unlikely that zerg is hiding a tech building in his expos making it extremely vulnerable, so based on what you see on the main base is what tells you he's still on ling tech, no hydra den in main so no hydras anytime soon. Zerg may have taken his natural base as his 3rd base which might've prompted you to be alert for some kind of all in but as long as your wall is ling tight 1-2 cannons is fine, unless he is going 12+ lings which you can tell if he gets them by seeing what pops out of his eggs counting his drone count, seeing what the natural progression of the game looks like to know intuitively he can't possibly have that many lings to warrant the 3 cannons.
(Game sense) Also make sure your wall in is ling tight if you suspect his lings are going to runby, there were several instances where I saw zealots out of position not completely blocking the wall where a surplus of speed lings could've slipped through if you suspected he was going to runby.
(Game sense) Lack of corsair strategy means you have to be aggressive with the dragoon count or have zealot archon force and force zerg to commit to a ground force, your initial zealot attack was delayed which you mentioned, but that also caused you to take a lot of dmg from his mutalisks catching you off guard since you did not go corsairs. So remember if you want to forgo corsairs keep this in mind with the dragoon or zealot archon focus and pressure. The zealot attack was also not focused, it seems you were second guessing to atk drones or the sunken and by the time you decided to atk the sunken the mutas cleaned up your zealots for minimal dmg to zerg drones. So either retreat or focus drones to buy time for you to mass up corsairs and cannons in main. You also invested in 2 stargate but did not have a corsair focus so it was a waste, I think that was just a desperation reaction to his mutas.
(Macro) Your probe production drops off I forgot what time in the game but you need to be still producing probes until your bases are fully saturated and your 3rd can also have probes transferred there with 12 probes. They say you should have 2.5 workers per mineral patch for the optimal mining, and your bases were not near that threshold. Your macro also needed improvement, so even though you weren't able to keep your resources low, despite not having saturated workers, that means you could've had much bigger and stronger army that could've squashed zerg long time ago. mid to upper level zerg would've drowned you with hydras and decimated your army.
(Game sense) Speaking of stronger zerg players swarming you with hydras your High Temps were late in the game, you need high templars earlier if you want to survive against better zergs. Timing to get HTs usually is around 7-8 mins with storm ready. So tech timings to get to this point is get core at 3:45, 4:30 stargate, 5:45 1st sair pops out, then +1 atk upgrade, the next 100 gas on citadel, then templar archives when citadel is complete. Then you get the rest, this is just 1 example of a build, but based on your focus you could forgo +1 atk until later if you focus on +1 sairs,etc.
(Game sense) Your 3rd nexus was further than what was optimal mining if you notice the nexus wasn't nearest to the minerals as it could've been.
(Micro/Multitasking) Army control was bad at around 18:30 when you were maneuvering around the hydras but not atking them, and also towards the end your army control could've been better your obs were not where they needed to be to assist the zealots and goons to focus the lurkers.
IN SUMMARY
I know this is a lot to point out and improve upon, but I'd say broodwar skills comes down to 5 basic elements.
1. Scouting 2. Macro 3. Multitasking 4. Micro 5. Game sense
I've put in parentheses on the paragraphs pointing out which category it goes under to improve upon.
-Scouting is obviously how well and often you scout your opponent to see what buildings/tech he has as well as his expos and army positioning,etc. -Game sense would be the follow up to understand what your opponent might do and how to respond appropriately. -Macro can be practiced playing against comp and trying to max out in 12-13 mins consistently with it being second nature and easy. -Multitasking can be practiced somewhat against computer although since it's not a real opponent it won't challenge your multitasking like in a real game but you can use it to just improve your macro side of multitasking not necessarily your harass management multitasking. -Micro just comes with practice like anything else.
I'd say just try to focus one skill at a time so that when you practice your macro until it becomes 2nd nature to you, it won't suffer when you have other tasks at hand. So macro and multitasking should be prioritized to be practiced first and as you start playing more and more games your game sense will naturally get sharper as you get beat and you learn not to make the same mistakes. Scouting well takes multitasking and micro so that all gets improved if you simply just focus on macro and multitasking.
I practice against comps for my macro and multitasking, I make my probe scout and even though it's a comp I make moves that I would normally do against a real opp and move my army around as if I was dealing with harass or deny expos and expanding myself and doing all these things while teching up,etc. I play againts comps simply bc it's faster to keep trying and playing again and again. I hate waiting for a player to join...
Another tip to help you macro and multitask better as I noticed throughout your plays were disoriented because lack of control or focus on certain things at certain times like your army control, probe production etc can be solved a lot by learning good hotkeys.
I hotkey my 1st 3 nexuses 0,9 and 8 since it's close to type 0p9p8p to make probes. 1 is always my scouting probe and then later switched to my 1st unit/ctrl group of units. In PvT 1 is always 1 full group of goons + obs to clear mines, in PvZ it's usually 9 speedlots + 2 hts as my 1st group. 2 I always designate as shuttle or flying units like sairs so when I play reavers I don't have to think about which one is my shuttle again which can be crucial in reaver micro, not hesitating and instantly moving shuttle.
PvT Group hotkeys 3 -in PvT it is always 2nd full group of goons + obs to clear more mines and having 2 full group of goons to deny vulture harass and spot terran army moving is good to have as well as clear mines in front of tank lines so your zealot groups can come in. 4- In PvT it is a full group of zealots to swoop in to destroy tank line after my 2 groups of goons clear the way. 5-7 just mix of zealots, goons and hts, at this point it doesn't matter how you group them as long as you have the 1st 2 ctrl group of goons to be able to clear mines efficiently without having to think about which ctrl group of units can safely defuse mines.
PvZ Group hotkeys
3-7it is usually mix of zealots goons and hts. I don't necessarily separate groups fully like zealots/goons or hts having their own group same with obs grouping, Obs aren't in their own hotkey I just hotkey 1 obs per group until after like group 5-7 bc usually 3 observers are fine as long as you micro them back when they get too close. I don't find hotkeying hts to be that useful since they don't have smart casting, if you select a bunch of HTs and cast storm, ALL of them will do it on the same spot unless they are spread out, so you're going to have to individually click on one of them anyways so no point in hotkeying them all in the same group.
Also learn your screen saved location hotkeys, F2, F3, and F4. You can save up to 3 screen locations by holding shift and typing F2-F4 and w/e screen you're looking at will be saved as a location, so best to use this for the middle of your gateways in a screen to instantly jump back to macro, instead of hotkeying a single gateway or wasting multiple hotkeys on gateways. Another F key to save for your rally points so once you macro from your gateways, you can instantly start hotkeying and grouping your units together from rally point.
I usually use F3 for my gateways and F2 as my rally point and if I need to make another row of gateways in another main base towards late game that'll be F4 so I can cycle through those 2 bunches of gateways instead of clicking on the minimap, which I guess you can do instead but Fkeys make it slightly faster and more second nature once you get the hang of it. Also makes rallying your gateways much easier, everytime you build a new gateway, you are in F3 location and simply type F2 to jump to your rally point and right click as you already selected that gateway and ping pong back and forth if you're rallying multiple gateways.
Thanks @moopower for the really in-depth feedback! I definitely see what you mean about game sense coming with time, much more so than the other stuff like macro and multitasking, which are much more under my control to practice. PVZ openings are substantially more complex than PVT/PVP, and the timings are so much less forgiving. Practice practice practice! Also, maybe not a good sign that I already use hotkeys and it didn't look like it XP FWIW, trying to play as relaxed as possible, avoiding spam clicking - found that this really helps me execute and respond better.
No problem chozen86! I personally like spam clicking as it helps me get in some kind of rhythm, but to each their own. Some progamers have lower APM than others but more EAPM, so I guess you're more that type of style. But yeah in the past PvZ was such an annoying match up for the ones that constantly cheesed me or did some kind of sneaky tactic. Once I played enough games, I was able to stop them consistently and win with macro.
try two gate wall at your natural and zealot rush a lot of times you can straight up kill a zerg who is expanding and droning. It sounds like for the short amount of time you have played, you are learning the game very well, but just lack the skills so sometimes its better to stick with simpler builds to start. Another thing you could do is isolate your macro (play fastest maps) and micro (play micro maps) and then come back to ladder and see if u can start winning more.
This is a great thread for Toss players. I have a question regarding how to react vs. hydra all in. If you scout fast hydra den and you know he is massing hydra, what is the best way to prepare for the break out?
I understand that you are supposed to place like 4-5 cannons at your natural, but I am not sure if I should tech to fast storms or mass gates. So far, whenever I see hydra all in, I make my cannons and focus on getting leg asap and a large zealot army built up. I don't really prioritize storm since I think having upgraded speedlots are enough to overpower someone who went fast hydra. I make like 6 gates off two base and try to hit as soon as leg and +1 finish. I get storm once I have my zealot army. I don't feel the need to get storm asap since zealots with mass cannons are more than enough to stop a bust.
But I want to learn the more balanced and standard approach. After placing the cannons what do I start working towards? how many gates do I make and when do I start my templar archives? What is a good amount of gates and when is a good time to get storm?
I try to get leg speed asap of course. I also constantly produce sairs when I can. The reason why I am reluctant to start storm so quickly in this scenario is because I want to punish the zerg as soon as possible since his econ is weak due to going fast hydra. Why let him keep the initiative and wait for a tech (storm) that takes so long? However, I understand that overdoing it on speedzeals and delaying storm too long is not a good approach. Is there a balanced way I can go about this?
What I have been doing: -place 4-5 cannons -citadel -4 gateways inside my main -lots of sairs -late templar archives.
Is this alternative path better?: -place 4-5 cannons -citadel -make 2 more gates in your main for a total of 3 (you will lose 1) -templar @100% citadel -less sairs due to gas heavy tech.