|
On December 05 2017 14:53 konadora wrote: if larva did this against a fellow korean in a showmatch this wouldnt have happened
lx is salty af Yes, you sure know everything and you're morally above everyone to assume things like that
|
On December 05 2017 15:17 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities. 100% agree. I find it amusing how well spoken you are compared to those who spam #freelarva or act like Lx has no right be mad. You would think most people playing BW would be more mature, with it being a 20 year old game. Then again, I bet larvas afreeca viewers are all teenagers too.
That is essentially what I expected from BW players, since most of us should be in our 30s already. Apparently, I was wrong and it appears that mental maturity does not correlate very well with physical age. I had hoped for BW to progress into a classic esport with mature players, like chess or go, aimed at more refined audiences, but maybe I'm expecting too much.
|
On December 05 2017 15:32 youngjiddle wrote: I hope larva learns to be more mature outside of korea. If he wants to keep a job that is, hurting communities like the chinese scene is a very stupid thing to do.
Also, what's up with the dumbasses who think getting upvotes of reddit videos is more important than maintaining and growing the chinese scene.
Why should this hurt the Chinese scene? If anything it's motivation to get revenge. Anyway I don't see how it's larva's job to monitor the health of Chinese bw.
|
At least SC is on top of r/videos in reddit. Fuck yeah!
Sometimes things like this is for the greater good. That was funny as hell!
|
In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
|
United States9661 Posts
On December 05 2017 13:50 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 11:36 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 11:33 iamho wrote:On December 05 2017 11:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:58 Endymion wrote:On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote:On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this. this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect. I'm imagining it... and I still don't care. so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play. 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game. I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll. it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash. Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash? A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country. tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments. "hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man. retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded".
|
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here.
|
On December 05 2017 15:28 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities. Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did? It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour.
TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent.
The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
|
In Larva's first statement on his stream, he mentioned that 'talked to the organizer before', 'everyone take photos afterwards and they are cool'. ZOTAC said ' Larva did not notify of the organizers of his actions, and his statement of "having the organizer's permission" is not TRUE.' and in more recent statement, he mentioned he 'went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards', so obviously Legend is not cool about it from the very beginning. I don't want to call out Larva as a liar on his part but there is some contradictions between his statements.
I am actually surprise by the bias of the western community on this incident. Just imagine if Draco was the one on the GF.It is certainly not ‘larva did noting wrong’. BMs are acceptable in game, offrace is fine, drone-dancing is fine and nuke is fine. But in person, is just too much.
|
On December 05 2017 15:26 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 14:56 Letmelose wrote:On December 05 2017 14:46 RCCar wrote:On December 05 2017 14:44 Letmelose wrote:On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride". Nickzouzou wrote: It's a shame on this game,and a shame on SouthKro!!! HansenZ wrote: After Larva's showtime, every people in China will be against Zotac for sure. Just like Chinese people against Korea Lemart. And Lemart goes bankruptcy. youngjiddle wrote: But I'm not surprised with koreans these days when talking about other asian countries like china. robotninzya wrote: very soon if SCR is on WCG 2018 no one from the Republic of Korea will be in top3 or atleast on the first place. this is for sure. they will answer for this action and for their low level in the game. I don't know about you, but there may be some level of nationalism behind all this sudden uproar. Ooor... it may have to do with how well known and liked Legend was in Chinese BW scene back in like 2006. I'm sure bringing nationalism to the conversation was a great way of showing that fandom for Legend. Like I said, it's fine to be offended, but what I am not for are bullshit arguments under false pretenses. what's false about it? The relations between the countries are not fantastic, Larva's well aware of that, Legend's well aware of that. It is the context you can't ignore. Whatever the controversy was gonna happen, it was bound to be viewed through that prism.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The disproportionate reaction to this otherwise unimportant event was largely thanks to the nationalistic elements that some people connected to it. It's quite frankly hilarious to see attempts to deny any correlation, or people pretending that they have always been concerned over the lack of respect found in the Brood War scene, which is why they decided to chime their thoughts on the matter only when it was their player of choosing that got disrespected.
Quite obviously some people are using this event merely as a vessel of venting their pent up emotions on matters that has very little to do with the code of ethics found within the Brood War scene. That's bullshit if you ask me, and why should I encourage those who are flooding the Brood War forum for the sole purposes of beating that nationalistic drum?
|
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
I think the issue is that LX was one of the best foreign players in the world, but we all know that age matters a lot in BW and once you hit around 27-28 years of age no amount of practice can save the natural deterioration of your brain, saying that he should "get good" is unrealistic. Therefore the first analogy would be incorrect, it would be more like the current grandmaster playing against a former grandmaster from a decade ago. I do understand that Larva wasn't trying to offend anyone and I do appreciate his attempts to entertain the audience, however just like LX has stated himself, everything would be fine if he restricted his entertainment within the game, e.g. flying 20 command centres in the shape of a heart onto LX's base, but outside the game one should maintain a certain degree of etiquette.
|
On December 05 2017 15:32 youngjiddle wrote: I hope larva learns to be more mature outside of korea. If he wants to keep a job that is, hurting communities like the chinese scene is a very stupid thing to do.
Also, what's up with the dumbasses who think getting upvotes of reddit videos is more important than maintaining and growing the chinese scene.
There's chinese scene of BW? oO
|
On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Since when ZOTAC showmatches are the Champions League of Brood War? Was the status of the tournament elevated suddenly due to Larva's foot making r/videos frontpage for 30 minutes?
|
On December 05 2017 15:59 CxWiLL wrote: In Larva's first statement on his stream, he mentioned that 'talked to the organizer before', 'everyone take photos afterwards and they are cool'. ZOTAC said ' Larva did not notify of the organizers of his actions, and his statement of "having the organizer's permission" is not TRUE.' and in more recent statement, he mentioned he 'went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards', so obviously Legend is not cool about it from the very beginning. I don't want to call out Larva as a liar on his part but there is some contradictions between his statements.
I am actually surprise by the bias of the western community on this incident. Just imagine if Draco was the one on the GF.It is certainly not ‘larva did noting wrong’. BMs are acceptable in game, offrace is fine, drone-dancing is fine and nuke is fine. But in person, is just too much. Hilarious you guys keep saying imagine if it was Draco. There would never have been drama if it was Draco.
It's a showmatch, not OSL. Every other player was there to have fun.
|
On December 05 2017 15:52 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 13:50 juvenal wrote:On December 05 2017 11:36 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 11:33 iamho wrote:On December 05 2017 11:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:58 Endymion wrote:On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote:On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this. this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:34 s_k_911 wrote: Imaging next event : larva's foot vs Midas or Nada (same age and pro time as Legend)
So many guy say"free larva".This is a shame on sc community.
Legend told his friend he didnot know what happened during the match.But as soon as his friend told him larva play with foot agaist him, Legend was root at this seat 30mins and did nothing.
This was definitely not what he expect. I'm imagining it... and I still don't care. so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play. 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game. I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll. it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash. Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash? A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country. tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments. "hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man. retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded". you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you".
|
On December 05 2017 16:10 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 15:59 CxWiLL wrote: In Larva's first statement on his stream, he mentioned that 'talked to the organizer before', 'everyone take photos afterwards and they are cool'. ZOTAC said ' Larva did not notify of the organizers of his actions, and his statement of "having the organizer's permission" is not TRUE.' and in more recent statement, he mentioned he 'went to see Legend after the game at night to apologize in person but he refused to see me and wrote that post on his SNS afterwards', so obviously Legend is not cool about it from the very beginning. I don't want to call out Larva as a liar on his part but there is some contradictions between his statements.
I am actually surprise by the bias of the western community on this incident. Just imagine if Draco was the one on the GF.It is certainly not ‘larva did noting wrong’. BMs are acceptable in game, offrace is fine, drone-dancing is fine and nuke is fine. But in person, is just too much. Hilarious you guys keep saying imagine if it was Draco. There would never have been drama if it was Draco. It's a showmatch, not OSL. Every other player was there to have fun. goofing around on mutual agreement is sure analogous to what happened %facepalm%. If you didn't know Draco sometimes gets VERY pissed when games don't go his way
|
On December 05 2017 16:14 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 15:52 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 13:50 juvenal wrote:On December 05 2017 11:36 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 11:33 iamho wrote:On December 05 2017 11:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:58 Endymion wrote:On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote:On December 05 2017 10:25 404AlphaSquad wrote: I don't really see the big deal. Behaving in condescending ways and shaming your opponents for their lack of skill, whether its in-game or in person, is part of BW culture. A simple YT search, even from Kespa players would confirm this. this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down On December 05 2017 10:38 FlaShFTW wrote: [quote] I'm imagining it... and I still don't care. so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play. 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game. I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll. it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash. Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash? A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country. tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments. "hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man. retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded". you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you". You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence.
|
On December 05 2017 15:54 FoR_BlueS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 15:28 Myrddraal wrote:On December 05 2017 14:10 FoR_BlueS wrote: Given that BW is almost a 20 year old game, the amount of players who cannot rationally evaluate the moral nature of Larva's behavour is depressing. If you think strength makes right, go read Rousseau, if you think it is unjustified for people to react angrily at an obviously inappropriate behaviour, go read Kant. This has nothing to do with "Chinese pride" or whatever excuse people come up to defend Larva's obviously inappropriate behaviour, the demand for respect is a fundamental human right and doesn't only apply to Chinese people. There are obviously more mature, responsible and respectful ways to entertain a more refined audience, but apparently that is beyond reach of Larva's capabilities. Really? I think it's far more irrational to make a big deal about it, take emotions out of it and tell me how exactly anyone was harmed by what Larva did? It was clearly a relaxed atmopshere, not some super serious competition. If you think that someone playing a video game with with their foot for a short time is some huge moral issue, go watch some comedians and grow a sense of humour. TBH I didn't think much of Larva's behaviour, what he did was within my expectations, I personally just laughed off it, but I can totally understand why many couldn't stand it. Rationally speaking, playing with your feet against a retired veteran shows nothing but your immaturity and disrespect towards your opponent, even if you didn't mean it. Watch Jet Li's movie "Fearless" and see how the Japanese Samurai behaved when he fought and won against a handicapped Li at the end of the movie, that is true respect against a weaker opponent. The problem was that LX did not expect this behaviour, he came prepared as if it was a serious match, if Larva had communicated with LX beforehand everything would be fine, but he didn't. Disrespect is disrespect, the particular circumstances or context does not invalidate the nature of the behaviour or attitude itself. If you don't think disrespect is a moral issue, I suggest you read this page: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/#SomImpIss , specifically, in part 2.1 the author attempts to answer the question "What is it about persons that makes them matter morally and makes them worthy of respect?"
I've seen Fearless, it was a great movie, but this was not a battle to the death between warriors, but a showmatch streamed for viewer entertainment, so forgive me for considering that to be a pretty inept comparison. Just because you say, "rationally speaking" at the start of your point, does not make your point rational, you seem to be suggesting that it is immature and disrespectful because he is a retired veteren, if it were a serious competition I would probably agree with you, but because it was a showmatch, I believe it is you that is being overly emotional and irrational. We can have differing opinions and that is fine, but I would caution against get blinded by your opinion into thinking you have some sort of moral high ground and any who disagree with you are just irrational or immature.
The circumstances do matter, because there are different expectations depending on the circumstances, I expect a showmatch to be entertaining. If Legion expected a super serious match then it is understandable that he would feel disprespected, but in my opinion, that is his mistake not Larva's.
|
On December 05 2017 15:54 AManHasNoName wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 15:51 BlackJack wrote: In chess when an exhibition is played with 1 grandmaster and a bunch of inferior players it's almost to be expected that the grandmaster will either play blindfolded, play multiple games at once, take one of his own pieces off the board, etc. If a grandmaster did that to another grandmaster in a serious match then it would definitely be viewed as disrespectful. I think Legend needs to accept that he fits into the first category, not the second. He's not on Larva's level.
I think before you take personal offense to someone's actions you should ask yourself 2 questions. First - did they do it maliciously? I would say No, Larva was just trying to be entertaining, have fun, or be funny. Second - was it directed at you? I would say Larva would have done these antics regardless of who he was playing in the finals, so it wasn't an attempt to personally disrespect a particular player, it was just Larva trying to have fun. Legend can still choose to be offended, and that's his right.
I do think it's funny that in most sports you can literally assault someone and only get suspended for 1-2 games but in Starcraft if you play with your feet you get banned for life.
Well said and a nice example as well. I'm glad you brought up the intention side of morality, cause I think that absolutely applies here. I don't know how stupid one has to be to think that is a good example. It is totally a different thing. The grand master and the players agreed to have the grandmaster play blindfolded, or play multiple games at once, that makes it a fair/fun competition. Did any grandmaster masturbate or dance naked when he plays his fans, despite that he could do that and win, and it is more "entertaining"?
Did Larva play with his foot from beginning? No. He only did that when he is obvious in an advantageous position. Almost every game will end up in a position that you can simply "A" all your army to destroy everything, if the other player does not quit before that. Even I can use my foot to do it in that situation. Does it make me a better player than the opponent? No, I might be just lucky and might have lost 10 games in a row. Then what's the point of using your foot when you obviously CANNOT win if you do it from the beginning, besides humiliating your opponent?
|
On December 05 2017 16:19 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 16:14 juvenal wrote:On December 05 2017 15:52 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 13:50 juvenal wrote:On December 05 2017 11:36 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 11:33 iamho wrote:On December 05 2017 11:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:58 Endymion wrote:On December 05 2017 10:53 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 05 2017 10:40 Endymion wrote: [quote] this is not my experience in bw at all, both on foreign and korean servers. people are for the most part very chill and polite, even if they're not all socialable. the pros x1000 were that.. they play up their personalities for their streams nowadays though, but i still think they're good/manner deep down
[quote]
so if you got a chance to play vs JD or flash, and you practiced like 2 or 3 months leading up to it... and they played with their feet against you... you wouldn't be annoyed/disappointed/jaded? it's denying you the decency of having an actual game of starcraft if someone plays with their feet.. it's ludicrously rude, he should have just left the game if he was so disinclined to play. 1) Your hypothetical is so extreme it's not really worth it to discuss but I'll entertain it. 2) No, I really wouldn't care. If they can beat me with their feet AFTER they had already held off an all-in and I've already lost, why should I care. If anything, I would have been more impressed if Larva held off the initial all-in with his feet the entire time, rather than the end when he had already won the game. I'm looking for good Starcraft games. If someone wins a game with their feet to make the game closer, I'm all for it. In fact, it would be a good challenge because that's how much time they've put into the game where they're so superior they can do that. It's like CSGO pros in low ELO games using only deagle or zeus's. Or League of Legends where they run all TP/Smite to troll. it's so extreme that it's literally the situation that happened to the cn player. but whatever, if that's what you want from starcraft then by all means, let's keep up the bm and the trolling etc etc etc. instead of having a showmatch why not just put larva on iccup and let him bm peruvians, sounds like it would be a great time Dude. It's a SHOWMATCH. you act like someone's life was on the line. When did old school BW players become so soft? We've had to deal with iccup bm from people for years and pros bming was great, going for silly strats and manner hatching people. If that happened to you, you can choose to be upset, that's your prerogative. I don't care. They've practiced so hard to reach that level of skill and they should be allowed to do that. It's when M2K pulls out pichu against nonamers because hes just that good with his characters in smash. Being skilled at something doesn't give you the right to humiliate people of lesser skill. I was a D1 basketball player in college but I don't join pick-up games at the gym and try to embarass the middle aged guys playing there. When you make a new account on ladder and have to play new players, do you shit talk them and tell them they're trash? A little bit of showboating is alright when you're with close friends, or your opponent is someone of roughly equal skill as you. Against someone you don't personally know and is clearly below your level, it just makes you look like a jackass. Even in pro traditional sports, the top veteran athletes trash talk each other but they don't trash talk the rookies and bottom players - let alone a semi-retired amateur from a foreign country. tell that to Mew2King who trashes everyone with Pichu in qualifiers for Smash tournaments. "hey this retarded behavior is okay, since here you can see another dude with the same retarded behavior" nice logic man. retarded only to you and others like you. not retarded to people like me or the entire smash community. your prerogative. You don't get to decide what is "retarded". you don't get to decide what an entire community thinks. Besides, who gets to decide what's what? Hold on, I have the answer: the social norm. It's not within such norm to behave like Larva did, it is normal "only to you and others like you". You just agreed with him and then contradicted your own first sentence. no I didn't agree with him. I replied with his own words so he had a chance to see how meaningless they are. Then explained why they are meaningless and what defines retarded behavior.
|
|
|
|