BONJWA !!!
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
BONJWA !!! Supporting your stream! Fighting! | ||
endy
Switzerland8966 Posts
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amyamyamy
76 Posts
So many people are so offended, upset and outraged by things that are in reality harmless - their judgements clouded by emotions | ||
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On December 15 2017 04:57 RCCar wrote: Literally going around in circles. L Master made some of the best points I think from a pro savior streaming scbw standpoint. I'll attempt to address things here. -> Savior was desperate for money 1. Savior wasn't desperate for money. He joined a conglomerate team in 2006 making 6 figure salary. I'm pretty sure it went up to 200~300k at his peak. He did get paid less as his form started falling off but considering that YellOw in his later days still made 6 figure salary... I don't think he would have gotten any less. -> But what about after BW? What could he do? 2. Savior had a very good transition awaiting him in the area of eSports. He could have been a coach, worked for CJ as a brand, heck, streaming was around in 2009 and I doubt Savior would have had no viewers. BoxeR wanted Savior to continue the scene after him and placed trust in the man. -> He was young, he couldn't have foreseen it. 3. He was 23. Aside from the 1 guy who thinks that you can't make rational decisions until 25, he matchfixed, then pushed in many younger gamers to do the same thing. He didn't pay them what he said he would either. -> Why are we judging strangers here? He has redeeming qualities. 4. Skipping past the part where "redeeming qualities" are also technically judging strangers, professional gamers who were close to him expressed distaste. Earlier on this thread, (pg 3 I think), I translated what Iris said about Savior's personality and how despicable it was. I don't think he has the best personality. -> Its been so long since he matchfixed- surely he has repented by now. 5. Savior has streamed many times before apologizing, Unfortunately, instead of acknowledging his "mistake", he has downplayed his errors and went so far as to ban any and all mentions relating to matchfixing. His list of banned words were over 100 including sports teams that matchfixed like Juventus. Considering how Hwasin apologized properly and took callouts and questions about matchfixing in stride during his stream, and was still discovered insincere, I think there is no doubt that Savior is not sincere at all. -> Let savior stream, its just streaming. 6. Savior has streamed in 2016, showing off his name brand clothing on stream, and hanging with cam streamers. He quit soon. He is completely free to stream, just not certain games such as BW, SC2, OW, and LoL. The reason this thread is going through debate at all is because people want him to stream Starcraft. -> He can play high quality games, we need every streamer. 7. Savior, even back in 2013, showed miserable form. I doubt that he can show competitive games 4 years later. Also, streamers already showed disgust at being asked to play against him- namely Best who refused 1000 dollars worth of donations to play against him in the future. -> What would be the problem with him streaming/ coming into mainstream starcraft? 8. Starcraft in the Korean scene, is just recently coming into popularity again, with OGN even considering a starcraft league. (They haven't said anything about it since, but haven't retracted their statement officially so still praying). For potential sponsors, former matchfixers such as Savior playing the game, and the community endorsing such actions, will more than likely harm their image sponsoring. In Korea, public opinion is overwhelmingly negative. For Starcraft to get big sponsors again, the scene has to show they do not condone illegal/ dangerous actions. Streamers like Larva or Best leaving Terror as they strive for a more mainstream audience would be one of the examples. I'm not a marketing major, so take these words with a grain of salt. As for the community aspect of it, it is the morality issue that he is making money off of the scene that he has destroyed almost singlehandedly. Now that many former pros make money off of streaming, I think you can imagine the insult they would feel. Hwasin's incident was like this as well, and pros such as firebathero called him out on his hypocrisy. -> But Savior needs money too. 9. Perhaps he can get it in a way that he doesn't further manipulate the scene he has already destroyed. He could have had an insane amount of money during his career but voluntarily kicked it all away. -> Savior didn't make much during his BW Career. 10. back to 1. P.S. Before we say something something korean scene, lets do some research on it first, ok? I will be happy to translate articles as needed if you find something that thinks will help. Just PM me. comment on 빠따정 actually has me triggered atm. This is the most detailed and rational explanation of why savior should not be allowed to stream bw and continue to be exiled from the community. Kudos for taking the time to write this out. Thank you for sharing this. 100% agree here. | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6325 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2784 Posts
That said, regarding the question of moral fairness, I think it would be fair to let him stream, for several reasons. First, I think that a 10-year KeSPA ban instead of a permanent KeSPA ban would have been perfectly adequate, and that ban either would have expired by now or would be about to expire. Second, streaming is separate from tournament competition. His ability (or inability) to provide a stream that viewers value is not directly connected to his ability (or inability) to respect the integrity of a tournament. Third, neither the existing KeSPA ban nor a comprehensive ban on anything related to Brood War would actually prevent him from repeating his misdeeds. Savior is guilty of serving as a broker between shady gamblers and progamers who would agree to fix matches. If the circumstances were right for Savior to do this again, he could do so while being banned from streaming and from every tournament. He would just need some phone numbers. I am not saying I think that he will do it again, but rather that in terms of prevention, the ban does nothing. Fourth, it seems relevant in this case that Savior was tried and sentenced under the law and that he served his sentence (according to earlier in this thread, it was 120 hours of community service and 2 years of probation). Overall, I think that his actions merited serious consequences and that he has paid the consequences (including loss of his job and salary on CJ, inability to compete for a decade, and 120 hours of community service). Also, as I said, a continued ban serves no preventive role. Afreeca and other companies will put a finger in the air and make a decision on the basis of which camp is loudest, but personally I'm all right with letting the match fixing be water under the bridge. I formed this opinion without respect to whether I like his personality or believe his sincerity (I don't understand Korean), and without respect to whether he still has any skills. However, I will understand if some people, especially progamers, continue not to like him. | ||
chrisolo
Germany2604 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
To quote myself from a different thread: I had this fantasy where in an alternate reality one of the match fixers enters the police academy (maybe despite any limitations against individuals with criminal records), begins working in a bureau dealing with fraud, and eventually gets to work on match fixing cases (in any sport). Something akin to Catch Me If You Can. | ||
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
On December 15 2017 07:01 ReachTheSky wrote: Savior has some real bad acting in that video. Someone would have to be extremely naive and stupid to believe he is actually remorseful for everything he did. Looks/sounds more like savior is just trying to play the role and feed everyone what he thinks they need to hear in order to be accepted rather than there being any genuine substance. I still vote no. So you decide what he's feeling now? Just let the guy do what he wants. Why do you want to limit his personal freedom to stream on a site where everyone else is allowed to stream? It's up to anybody if you hate savior or not. You can also just not tune in his stream if you don't want to see it. I think some controversy and discussion would be good for the scene. Right now it's just dying, pros leaving to the military will not help in the long run. | ||
nanaoei
3358 Posts
i stress that i hope he doesn't make too much money off of it, because streaming is a volatile thing and there's a whole slew of excuses that can be made for say, shutting down the stream all of a sudden. there's no telling how much truth lies in those kinds of excuses. i guess i'm trying to say that transparency is key, even at the cost of himself and his enjoyment. you have to build trust back up again. thank you Tiny Land for the video. | ||
GTR
51150 Posts
I remember watching this as a kid and getting so fucking hyped. Then Savior literally destroyed everyone two years later. Fuck Savior. EDIT: I'm in the same sentiment as Stork - I don't give a shit if he streams, but don't fucking stream BW. Crazy to think he still has somewhat of a fan base in Korea, although I'm guessing most of them are Terror/Britney apologists who thrive off Savior-related drama. | ||
hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
Why can't he just stream games like PUBG? Stay out of BW please. | ||
xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
Not being able to compete in esports for the rest of his life is already a fitting punishment that he probably regrets everyday, no need to deserve him worse. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
Let the dude stream BW, if you don't want to support him, don't. It's a new era... pretty obvious of this, in Korean and Non-Korean scene. | ||
ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On December 15 2017 07:52 hp.Shell wrote: You can see from this discussion, that Savior brings out the worst in people. Why can't he just stream games like PUBG? Stay out of BW please. Wat. Like really, what does that mean. Are you saying Savior someone is so evil he can influence how others act and behave? Obviously, he is polarizing and so brings out strong opinions, but so do many topics. | ||
Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
However, I'd argue that he's still a star by trade and he ought to be allowed to flaunt it like any other. Matchfixing, although a breach of contract and something he has paid duly and dearly for, is not definitively an abuse of celebrity. Let the man stream and work on his brand under the new, obvious limitations that will need to be set on him. | ||
franzji
United States580 Posts
On December 15 2017 03:33 RCCar wrote: Show nested quote + On December 15 2017 03:31 TigerKarlGeld wrote: On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious. On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality. Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy. 20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there. Its not like this was something really complicated... Hmmm... should I do something illegal...? Hmmm... So hard..... Hmmm... should I also invite my coworkers to this matchfixing gang and jeopardize the scene any further..? Oh noes my lack of fully developed prefrontal corex! greatest comment in this whole thread. anyways, it's not like they didn't teach basic ethics to people playing in the team houses. people do corrupt stuff when they are 18, people do corrupt stuff when they are 40. Nothing to do with the brain, some people are just shit. | ||
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