I harped a lot into TLJ, so for variety's sake, I copy paste my comment from another board, where I tried to list what I liked about this movie and why you should absolutely watch it at least once.
- The animations and sounds are amazing. When shit explode, it EXPLODES. When eventually lightsabers are being used, the sound they make on the surface of a certain armor is simply the best. I thought you can't top the - admittedly over the top - lightsaber effects showed in the Prequels, but yes, you can. There's also that one scene in the movie... yes, THAT ONE. Honestly, for me, that alone worth the admission price. It's not exactly original; if you watch action animes you surely seen it before, but to witness it in such a big franchise backed up with such a big budget... whew! Most of the people in my friends circle disliked the movie, but if I ask "that scene was cool though, aye?" they all say yeah, that was awesome.
- The action. I watched all (new) Star Trek movies in hopes of getting this feeling, but only managed to pull it off here and there. A Star Trek movie has like 2 big budget action scenes which are great, and the rest are meh. In TLJ (though it could be said about TFA as well) you are constantly treated with dosage of high-quality action scenes. Yes, it figures that the most meaningless subplot of this movie has the worst action scene as well, but - going back to my earlier point - even that has some great sound effects as the glasses shatter. Yeah, don't tell me I'm hard to please Break some glasses and tables and I'm entertained.
- Not just X-Wings! I am still not happy with the spacecraft quality of both the Resistance and the First Order, because compared to RotJ and Rogue One there's a lot of space (heh-heh) to improve, but this time we get different spaceships as well for the Resistance, so I'm happy. I'm still unsure if they were modified A-Wings though or something else. The bomber looked kinda lame, but meh, I take it.
- Kylo's lightsaber form. So, I consider myself an SW fan, but not the "I read all the EU, have all the posters and know all the lightsaber forms"-kind. I know there are different forms and they go reaaaallly deep about someone's personality or role, but TFA established Kylo as a raw "I don't give a fuck" fighter and the very, very few things TLJ actually followed instead of retconned was this. And even improved upon it! The way Kylo swings and uses his lightsaber is a thing of beauty, and to me, it represents the new era of Star Wars. A claymore saber being swung around by a madman, yet it's far from being mindless.
- Kylo and Rey's relationship is the single best thing this movie gives us story-wise, and it's biggest fault is that it eventually comes to an abrupt end. But it is actually a bold way to try to herd together the main protagonist with the main antagonist. It is refreshing to see enemies finding comfort in each other, while still radiating some distrust or even despise to one another. Those moments in the movie really feel like two human beings are interacting.
- If I were to make a good and a bad list about TLJ, both list would have simply this: "Luke". There are many things wrong with Luke and how they handled it, but at the same time, they got some things quite right. As the dust settles, I think my favorite scene in the movie is actually with Luke, when he goes crazy and is being taught an important, slice-of-life lesson from someone. I think many people are missing that scene, and treating it as a good or bad cameo. It was much more than that - for me at least.
- DJ (I never even knew that's his name) is great. Everything he represents is great. But as I said, the movie was too afraid to go into the "not everything is black and white" direction, and only dealt with it on the surface. Still, that one scene where he talks about the sad reality of war could be expanded upon in episode IX. But you see, this is where different directors really suck. Rian didn't give a shit about what J.J. wrote and it will probably be vice versa, and this scene will be forgotten. Anyway, that scenes how to show politics in an interesting way, unlike in the Prequels.
- Rose's character. Now hold up, back up with the pitchforks! Yes, the way they wrote her story and the arc she was in was disgustingly bad. Yes, during her "LOVE CONQUERS EVERYTHING, YIPPEEEEEEEE" I could break open a coconut on her head. But hear me out! Under all the bullshit she was written into, she's actually a very likeable character. That scene when she throws in her memento as payment without any hesitation is A+ my friends. And this is what grinds my gears. The movie can be so dull and Disney-like that you'd expect her to give a 5 minute long monologue about the importance of that necklace and her family, but nope. She behaves like an adult. It's war and they are dealing with a scum.
- The comedy. We've discussed the misplaced bits a ton. Yes, they are murdering the very little integrity of what this story even has, but some of them I think are actually great and well-placed comic relief. The aboriginals on the island or the Chewie cooking scenes are simply great. Basically when the movie did not try to be funny during scenes where people were burning alive, it wasn't all that bad.
- Luke in the final battle. Again, many things are off with Luke, but that scene is controversial at most. There is nothing bad with controversial; I like controversial. It's just that people forget that absolute shit and controversial are not synonyms when we have these pointless debates.
- Leia and her power. Yes, by the end it was a glaring plot hole, but when i first saw the movie I was happy with that Superman scene. I thought "fuck yeah, this is going to be some awesome Skywalker action!!" I like heroines in general, so I nodded with acceptance during that scene, because I believe she deserved that recognition. Again, a controversial scene but I refuse to call it bad. It's only bad in hindsight, when she forgets she is actually Gandalf.
- Poe. The single character who actually learned a lot in this episode. Kylo was kinda brute-forced and since the writer's couldn't keep Rey up with her, he suffered some as well. But Poe was great. I think he was believable, and by the end of the movie, I would not even mind a spin-off movie with him being the main character. It's sad that when he could have confronted Holdo and voice all of our frustration, he was silenced by the writers, *cough*, i mean Leia, and by the time he woke up it was too late. Anyway, he is a breath of fresh air among all the characters who talk big but do nothing. He had his hero moments, he had his fuckups, he was... human. I can relate to humans, don't know about you.
Snoke turning out to be Darth Plagueis would be the funniest slapfight between directors ever.
On December 22 2017 17:56 Volband wrote: - Leia and her power. Yes, by the end it was a glaring plot hole, but when i first saw the movie I was happy with that Superman scene. I thought "fuck yeah, this is going to be some awesome Skywalker action!!" I like heroines in general, so I nodded with acceptance during that scene, because I believe she deserved that recognition. Again, a controversial scene but I refuse to call it bad. It's only bad in hindsight, when she forgets she is actually Gandalf.
On December 22 2017 17:56 Volband wrote: - Leia and her power. Yes, by the end it was a glaring plot hole, but when i first saw the movie I was happy with that Superman scene. I thought "fuck yeah, this is going to be some awesome Skywalker action!!" I like heroines in general, so I nodded with acceptance during that scene, because I believe she deserved that recognition. Again, a controversial scene but I refuse to call it bad. It's only bad in hindsight, when she forgets she is actually Gandalf.
How is this a plot hole?
If you can shield yourself in space and then levitate back to your ship, then you have some immense Force powers. Which you will never ever use again in the movie, despite being in numerous dire situations. You will never even ATTEMPT to do something and then maybe fail.
They set Leia up as some sort of demi-god, but completely forgot about it. Maybe glaring inconsistency would be a better description, but it is so mind-boggling and powerful that I consider it an actual plot-hole.
edit: for example, the way Snoke died is just simply stupid. They set him up as this all-powerful Sith lord, who can read minds ffs, and then dies a comical death. It is extremely stupid BUT the movie did try to shove down an explanation on our throat. Which was that Snoke got so riled up that he got careless, while Kylo moved his lightsaber the same way he did Luke's. Again, makes you wonder how such an idiot can be a Sith Lord (remember: when Vader betrayed Luke, he hadn't shown any sign of vulnerability before, it was a complete surprise to him), but at least they tried.
I think he is spot on with this. (the general message, i disagree about details like the fighting scene) But yeah it's a star wars movie, they all are kinda meh in the bigger picture of filmmaking.
"realistic expectations" when the fucking movie is much worse than the one before it, lol. Why do many arguments for TLJ boils down to "so you thought this would be the best movie ever made, eh?" Jesus, no one did, so stop forcing this narrative.
And his condescending tone about Star Wars is sooooo forced and edgy that I hope he can move from all the self-knit sweaters.
If you guys don't want to watch the video, here's a summary: "oh myyyy gooood, star waaaaars? is that a franchiiiseeee??? oh yeaaaaaah, i think I know those movies, hehe. Not sure, pretty mediocreeeeee if you ask meeeeee. I mean reaaaalllyyy, what's the big deaaaaal? Nooothiiiiing. Btw I'm vegaaaan guysssss, hehe. Let's not give a shit about star wars like I dooooo, hehe. Be cooool as meeeeee, I meaaan come ooooon!"
Deep cutting stuff right there. If you actually want to watch a credible review that doesn't pan TLJ then watch Cinemassacre's. James Rolfe is someone who actually likes the franchise and talks pretty laidbackly with his pal about the movie. No forced shit like this one.
edit: though apparently the same scene gave both of us cancer, so I guess there is some stuff I can resonate with in his review.
It's not a real review, that's simply the style of this channel. His "best movie of year X" videos are pretty good, other than that it's mainly "quickies" to give some thoughts or videos where he makes fun of bad movies. Still think he is 100% right, no star wars movie is great, this one isn't either. People have unrealistic expectations, nostalgia towards the OT and every new star wars movie needs to live up to childhood memories. Well that's not gonna happen. Some people should actually rewatch the older movies without the rose-tinted glasses to get some perspective
Most of the movie's flaws can be pointed out by only watching 7 and 8. Every SW movie required some suspension of disbelief, that's not the problem here.
The problem is that 8 failed to live up to any reasonable expectation. Did it turn the entire franchise on its head? No. Fair enough. Did it pick up the story from 7 and expanded upon its foundations? No. Well, damn. Did it set up the scene for some episode 9 action? No. Oh...
This movie did nothing but provide some entertaining action sequences in its runtime. That wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't part of a trilogy. Watching a trilogy or a TV series sets you up for reasonable expectations. There's a story, there are characters and you would like to see these progressing without dropping in quality. Rian Johnson did not care about any of this at all; he treated TLJ like a one-off, like his entry to the SW universe. And he already succeeded: Disney gave him another trilogy, boom, he cashed in. But at what cost?
Nostalgia or not, the Prequels, the OT and TFA had a consistent writing and a fluent story. It had its mystery, it had its fun, it had its "that should not be possible" moments, but it was a well-oiled machine. TLJ is entirely different and openly opposes TFA; it's basically a dick-measurement contest between J.J. and Rian, but Rian had to know that being the second in line, he had a story to follow and should not have let his ego get the better off him.
Call TFA as basic as you want, but J.J. did an amazing job passing down the canvas with plenty of room to paint on. Rian burned it for absolutely no good reason, other than to jerk himself off to comments like "RIAN JOHNSON IS SO BRAVE, OMG!!!" It's not bravery, it's stubborn defiance.
It's funny that people always say "did it set up anything for next episode" By that standard ESB didn't really either, the only thing would be Han needing help actually. ESB did so little otherwise that ROTJ actually had to bring back a deathstar to have any stakes at the bigger picture.
Everything else you wrote is just exaggerated to make a point. I disagree with everything basically (to that level) What you also completely fail to address is that a movie is more than just lore. It's about acting, cinematography, music, scene composition, set design, dialogue, character depth, and a million other things which make a movie a movie.
What i am saying is that Star Wars never produced great movies and people only care about a very specific feeling they had with the OT, something which is not reproducible. They completely neglect the obvious flaws in the OT while nitpicking the new movies to death even though quality wise there is hardly any difference. They do different stuff well/badly (to some extent) but the overall quality is always kinda the same.
As i said a few pages ago, i just recently rewatched ESB to get a new perspective and it was way worse than in my memories. That's the movie everyone says is a masterpiece? It's really not, it might be a classic and iconic for pushing scifi blockbusters in the 80s but after rewatching it i am not sure why it's on that pedestal.
On December 22 2017 22:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's funny that people always say "did it set up anything for next episode" By that standard ESB didn't really either, the only thing would be Han needing help actually. ESB did so little otherwise that ROTJ actually had to bring back a deathstar to have any stakes at the bigger picture.
We've been through this. "Who will stop the unstoppable Vader and his even more powerful master? How will the Rebels pull it off?" Compare it to TLJ's "which kid is going to kill the other one in episode IX?" If it's the same for you, then I'm really not sure what to tell you.
On December 22 2017 22:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: character depth
Now this is great. You always try to defend TLJ against partially made up arguments (my least favorite episode in the OT is ESB, so there's that), but let's see this one now.
How did Rey transition from TFA into TLJ and what do you feel about her character's depth at the end of TLJ? Keep in mind, we are talking about the protagonist of this trilogy, The Last (non-Jedi) Jedi. Feel free to compare with Luke at the end of ESb and/or with Anakin at the end of AotC, but it's up to you if you want to bring them in. I wouldn't if I were you, because even losing a hand has more impact on one's character depth than everything that happened with Rey in TLJ.
Losing a hand does nothing for character depth if it's not developed. Losing a hand changed Jaime in GoT. For Luke it didn't do anythign in ESB and in ROTJ it was merely a "oh hey i am kinda like vader because i have a robotic hand". (iirc i still would need to rewatch that one, i don't really want to because ROTJ is the worst of the OT and i already had my oh shit moment with ESB)
Luke in ANH and ESB doesn't really have more depth than Rey. These movies have main characters with almost no personality besides "being good" so almost anyone can identify with it.
We've been through this. "Who will stop the unstoppable Vader and his even more powerful master? How will the Rebels pull it off?" Compare it to TLJ's "which kid is going to kill the other one in episode IX?" If it's the same for you, then I'm really not sure what to tell you.
How will the resistance stop the FO now that they lost so many men. What will happen to the FO now that Kylo is the new leader. What will happen to the relationship between Kylo and Rey after they have built affection for each other.
Also the things you actually mentioned for ESB were already present in ANH, without ESB it would be exactly the same.
Same sentiments. I don't know why people consider it as a bad movie just because there are 2 min comedy lines in total, or a few tacky scenes. One of the complaints I usually see is Snoke's death, so people want the bad guy fights the good guy at the end of the trilogy. like the OT or lotr or any other disney / super hero / fantasy movie? ooooh so original and exciting. /s
But ESB at least did not erase what ANH set up. We are left off with less after TLJ than where we were after TFA. That surely is some middle-episode.
And losing a hand means that just because you are a prodigy and have a shiny lightsaber, you can still be fucked up for good. That is a rather important lesson; one that our precious"I Do Whatever I Want Because Life Is Pink" Rey might find useful.
- Luke's mentor has sacrificed himself for him. Something like that happened at the end of TLJ, but let's not compare Qui-Gon's or Obi-Wan's death to two scenes (the Force projection fighting and Luke's disappearance) which Rey did not even witnessed herself - also, she was safe on the Falcon; it was the others Luke had saved. - Luke had lessons with Yoda, another Jedi Master with a rather different approach and perspective than Obi-Wan's. Watch the Yoda-Luke training in ESB and compare it to the travesty that is the Rey-Luke training in TLJ. Yoda was actually teaching the young Skywalker and wasn't just some depressed hobo ranting about his mid-life crisis. - Luke learned that his opponent, the one who murdered his family and Obi-Wan was actually his father. That's some serious conflict right there: you want to hate him, but Luke is too pure not to love him. In comparison, Rey learned that her parents were assholes. Damn! What's next? Someone tells her that boys only want sex? - Luke was a prodigy, just like Rey or Anakin, but like his father, he wasn't afraid to put his hands in dirt. He wasn't just some honorary Rebel who saved the day with his lightsaber duels. No, he flew the X-wing, he flew those winter-shuttles, he took down an AT-AT in a rather unconventional way, and he - quite literally - managed to survive in the cruelest of conditions.
Luke was extremely likeable and he was a people person, not some royalty. He considered himself no more and no less than any Rebel you could see running around in the fights. Is he a fantasy hero? Sure he is, but a rather well-written one.
Saying things like Rey is just the same only shows how out of touch you are with the plot. And it's not some "super fandom" shit, like ranting to you about his adventures in the EU or whatnot - who the hell cares about that. These all happened on the main screen. In TFA, Rey was written similarly; a very kind, talented but practical person. But we never seen her interact with the Resistance, we never seen her having to work for anything in TLJ (maybe for Luke's favor, but what good it did to her?), and things are never going badly for her. NEVER. She surrenders herself --> Snoke dies --> his ship dies, but aww, Kylo is still alive - though most likely she could have executed him if she wanted to -, what a bummer.
But apparently she is the last Jedi now. Sure, why not? I hope ep. IX starts with her already being the strongest Jedi Master who ever existed without any explanation.
On December 22 2017 22:59 shin_toss wrote: Same sentiments. I don't know why people consider it as a bad movie just because there are 2 min comedy lines in total, or a few tacky scenes. One of the complaints I usually see is Snoke's death, so people want the bad guy fights the good guy at the end of the trilogy. like the OT or lotr or any other disney / super hero / fantasy movie? ooooh so original and exciting. /s
You are right. Not having any tension whatsoever is so much better and avant garde. Too bad Sauron wasn't killed in The Two Towers, I bet the last book would have been an awesome tale of people wandering around aimlessly.
Give Rian his Oscar already! Sheesh.
edit: we need a 7 minute video to explain why a stupid scene in the movie actually makes sense, but when we complain about basic plot inconsistencies then you scream "SMH HARDCORE SW FANS CAN'T BE PLEASED!!". Cool.
In the original trilogy I had no pre-existing attachment to Kenobi. My focus isn't on how and why did he become a hermit. Luke on the other hand was the hero of that trilogy, so I have a much more rooted interest in how he went from hero who redeemed his Sith Lord father, to jaded old man hermit who refuses to get involved now. Snoke's directly responsible for this by turning Kylo, so I care more about Snoke than I did the Emperor thru the first 2 movies.
I am not focused on how did Vader fall to the dark side because I don't even know Vader is Luke's father until much later and the film doesn't make his fall a central theme of the first two movies. Kylo was Luke's student and Han and Leia's kid, and they made his fall to the dark side a core plot line for both movies with the multiple flash backs and discussions about it. Based on the flashback's that Kylo wasn't much younger than he is now when he fell. The Emperor turned Vader before Luke was even born.
How Vader fell to the dark side is barely mentioned in the original trilogy. He was an evil guy and why he was evil wasn't something they tried to explore, so there was less reason to question it. The idea that he could even have good in him at all wasn't a consideration until Return of the Jedi. Kylo being Ben Solo and his corruption on the other hand is a key story line for both movies, which increases Snoke's importance in how that happened.
They have made Kylo's fall and the idea that he still has some good in him a central part of Luke, Han, Leia and Rey's storyline. That creates much more interest in Snoke's role in the fall than I had in the Emperor during the original trilogy. It's more comparable to Palpatine's role in the prequels with Anakin.
Snoke was directly responsible for the state of the galaxy and breaking Luke's spirit by turning Kylo, but he was treated as if he was less important than Jabba the Hutt.
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
On December 23 2017 00:03 Velr wrote: The problem with this movies humour is this:
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
and this is the only u could think from a 2 hours movie?
Finn is a side-kick character, who they turned into comedy relief, then they gave him a side-kick character in Rose who is also comedy relief, and teamed them with comedy relief BB8. Then they gave them their own story line that ended up at the same spot they would have been in if they had never bothered to try.
While having the good guys far fetched plan fail could be a good idea, it needs to have some negative consequences or the failure doesn't really matter. It would also help if it was not filled with unlikely events going their way that match the most far fetched plan that has succeeded in other movies.
On December 23 2017 00:03 Velr wrote: The problem with this movies humour is this:
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
and this is the only u could think from a 2 hours movie?
You make this assumption? A: Because you have nothing to say. B: Because your buthurt and have nothing to say.
I guess its B.
Anyone wanna remind me why exactly Fin being badly hurt in TFA is a total non factor in TLJ? Ah, i forgot, its because this movie shits on everything TFA set up.
On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote: I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her?
The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
I think it's a reference to Kylo relation to killing the past and cut all connection with his past, I think it told Rey that she didn't own anything to her parents, to Luke, the Jedi or the resistance, she has no destiny and can do whatever she want, she is the only one that matters. It's what Kylo want, to be free of his past, of his ancestry (Snoke, Luke, Han, the Jedi....) and to create his own destiny as this master of the universe, to rule all alone like the emperor or Snoke. But Kylo isn't able to do that because he never manage to truly kill his past or get rid of Rey.
Or maybe it was just to tell Rey that her parent were nobody and the dark side was just fucking around IDK.
Thanks for all the replies, i don't think there is a clear-cut answer. I would like to take your view on it but the whole "kylo telling her" was AFTER she went to the well, because when she was connected to him through snoke's force, he was splashed with water. which was shown almost repeatedly thereafter, every time they connected and had a conversation. she was only able to splash kylo with water because the well, abyss, ended up being a geyser. this was also the scene where luke catches her and stops them from making physical contact in the force.
Luke also mentions to her that she attempted to go in (i can't recall exactly when this happened if it was before or after) and he makes a huge scene about how she didn't even hesitate. which is such a build up for someone like luke to say, as it implies he was aware of the well, approaching it, what it represents, etc...as he's been on that island for so long....
I do get where people are going with this, but it seemed like such a buildup to a scene that was supposed to mean more...going to the extent of showing her "snapping fingers" and then saying to herself THERE IS AN END TO THIS. the fact they had to use CGI (as far as i'm aware) to make that scene. but maybe i am reading too much into it, but i'm guessing this can be added to the bucketlist of those disappointed in it lol...
trying to find meaning in the reverse just doesn't make sense....a build up, to confronting a dark abyss even luke wouldn't dare confront only for it to go "HEY GUESS WHAT? YOUR NOT SPECIAL!" is just lul...and then have remants of that experience physically affect others through the force by splashing kylo...it has to mean something of substance...