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jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time.
last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway.
this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran
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On September 08 2018 18:32 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:31 Ej_ wrote:On September 08 2018 18:29 reminisce12 wrote: i dont get the reason why these progamers rush to ultra skipping lurkers... it never works especially when ur behind and defending.. If I had to guess, a close 3rd is easier to hold vs 1-1-1 and lurker into defiler is worse then? There definitely is some reason if multiple people (SK, JD, Killer) do it. I think it's very naive to think that it's not good. No way defiler + lurker is worse. Dark swarm + 2 lurkers and Terran has to retreat. Well, I will trust the progamers on that one
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I do love being right. But man this series was a bit...meh
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Yeah I think the 1-1-1 hanbang is really difficult to hold with normal lurker/hive tech so ultras might be a viable alternative, especially since terran doesn't have as many marines as in +1 5 rax.
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On September 08 2018 18:31 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:29 Uldridge wrote: Is 1-1-1 op? Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z It's really good but it's really fragile, one mistake early game and you're dead. When Last and Flash use it it does seem good. I think Zerg just needs to forget about attacking when Terrans do 1-1-1 and just drone like mad and get your third up. I think this is true. Zergs are really fixated on trying to beat 1-1-1 early on. Almost like when muta harass is going well, everyone always wants to win with guardians when really they should just get defilers and win lol.
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now time to get some sleep before Montreal starts again, all I'm doing is watching starcraft this weekend lol
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On September 08 2018 18:35 starkiller123 wrote: now time to get some sleep before Montreal starts again, all I'm doing is watching starcraft this weekend lol
Same lol.
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On September 08 2018 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time.
last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway.
this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran
Really? I'm pretty sure if you rush to defiler you can get dark swarm out just in time. If you manage to get ultra armour I don't see why you won't have time for dark swarm.
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On September 08 2018 18:37 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:35 starkiller123 wrote: now time to get some sleep before Montreal starts again, all I'm doing is watching starcraft this weekend lol Same lol. Montreal into GSL into KSL into more Montreal in 4 hours, what a life
also watching KSL really makes me wish ASL was still on twitch, i think it would get way more western viewers that way
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On September 08 2018 18:35 Motivate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:31 Dante08 wrote:On September 08 2018 18:29 Uldridge wrote: Is 1-1-1 op? Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z It's really good but it's really fragile, one mistake early game and you're dead. When Last and Flash use it it does seem good. I think Zerg just needs to forget about attacking when Terrans do 1-1-1 and just drone like mad and get your third up. I think this is true. Zergs are really fixated on trying to beat 1-1-1 early on. Almost like when muta harass is going well, everyone always wants to win with guardians when really they should just get defilers and win lol. they try to beat them early on because thats when the build is weakest... even then its not THAT weak but if you play standard and you start off mid game at a disadvantage and it stays like that for too long. you dont know what terran is going to do and you dont know which units to build because theres a chance you get a straight up build order loss halfway through the game. thats what makes 1-1-1 so bs.
the 4th game for example, cloaked wraiths arent that popular on pure 1-1-1. you see it with 1-1-2 or you see vessel production. but here is exactly where terran has the mind game advantage, jd has no choice but to roll the dice and attempt the standard muta harrass and hope that last didnt get cloaked wraiths. otherwise jd could have chosen hydra/lurker but hed still have to roll the dice and hope terran tried something other than standard vessel production.
its hard to win when zerg HAS to attack terran first but terran can choose from 3 different ways to respond with the same opening and some of the responses straight up win you the game.
On September 08 2018 18:38 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time.
last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway.
this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran Really? I'm pretty sure if you rush to defiler you can get dark swarm out just in time. If you manage to get ultra armour I don't see why you won't have time for dark swarm. he didnt have ultra armour the first time he defended. it was +1 carapace on ultras. the thing about ultras also is you can spawn them and attack instantly, defilers would have just been irradiated while they sat around waiting for energy or consume to finish. when jd got his +4 finally last was also on +2/+1 so...
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On September 08 2018 18:31 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:29 reminisce12 wrote: i dont get the reason why these progamers rush to ultra skipping lurkers... it never works especially when ur behind and defending.. If I had to guess, a close 3rd is easier to hold vs 1-1-1 and lurker into defiler is worse then? There definitely is some reason if multiple people (SK, JD, Killer) do it. I think it's very naive to think that it's not good. The main focus of the 1-1-1 midgame is mass vessels . Vessels on high numbers destroy lurker/defiler, but are not so good against ultras (hard to irradiate before fight, irradiate during fight doesn't help Terran with all the splash damage dealt to marines)
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On September 08 2018 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time.
last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway.
this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran
As far as I saw, he got chitinous plating by the time he hit the first push, I'll watch it again to see but consume comes out faster than CP
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Terran's bag of builds shows today. First, Maru pwning Zest in SC2, now Last pwning JD.
It must be so stressful and frustrating for Toss or Zerg to play against a top Terran who knows how to abuse their bag of builds and play mind games.
When was the last time a top Terran got 4-0ed or 3-0ed? Almost never. Whilst it's common for a top Terran to absolutely rekt a top Zerg and Toss.
I feel that the game design is such that Terran's flexibility gives them a slight psychological edge over the other races.
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Ahh okay just rewatching it, Ultralisk Chitinous plating upgrade finished while he was killing the first push, so he definitely would have had consume/lurker out
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On September 08 2018 18:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:35 Motivate wrote:On September 08 2018 18:31 Dante08 wrote:On September 08 2018 18:29 Uldridge wrote: Is 1-1-1 op? Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z It's really good but it's really fragile, one mistake early game and you're dead. When Last and Flash use it it does seem good. I think Zerg just needs to forget about attacking when Terrans do 1-1-1 and just drone like mad and get your third up. I think this is true. Zergs are really fixated on trying to beat 1-1-1 early on. Almost like when muta harass is going well, everyone always wants to win with guardians when really they should just get defilers and win lol. they try to beat them early on because thats when the build is weakest... even then its not THAT weak but if you play standard and you start off mid game at a disadvantage and it stays like that for too long. you dont know what terran is going to do and you dont know which units to build because theres a chance you get a straight up build order loss halfway through the game. thats what makes 1-1-1 so bs. the 4th game for example, cloaked wraiths arent that popular on pure 1-1-1. you see it with 1-1-2 or you see vessel production. but here is exactly where terran has the mind game advantage, jd has no choice but to roll the dice and attempt the standard muta harrass and hope that last didnt get cloaked wraiths. otherwise jd could have chosen hydra/lurker but hed still have to roll the dice and hope terran tried something other than standard vessel production. its hard to win when zerg HAS to attack terran first but terran can choose from 3 different ways to respond with the same opening and some of the responses straight up win you the game. Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:38 Dante08 wrote:On September 08 2018 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time.
last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway.
this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran Really? I'm pretty sure if you rush to defiler you can get dark swarm out just in time. If you manage to get ultra armour I don't see why you won't have time for dark swarm. he didnt have ultra armour the first time he defended. it was +1 carapace on ultras. the thing about ultras also is you can spawn them and attack instantly, defilers would have just been irradiated while they sat around waiting for energy or consume to finish. when jd got his +4 finally last was also on +2/+1 so...
I think the solution is standard 3 hatch --> get 2-3 hydras --> Spire into 4 scourge --> scout with the 4 scourge and produce mutas accordingly. At the same time get a fast third and tech to hive + lurker/defiler. Scouting with scourge would be the key as they are fast and even if you lose them it doesn't set you back much.
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The flexibility is just what's super obnoxious to deal with more than anything. Then the constant stream from 7 racks just seems so unstoppable so quickly AND you have your tech so early too. Sure, you basically have 4 rines, a wraith and a tank for 5 minutes straight, but SCV's are tanky as fuck and are good meat shields (game 3). Maybe Z should try to have a bigger drone count? Have more mining bases? Tech quicker themselves (f.e. 2 base 2 hatch hive?)
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I feel all discussions about what JD could do all pointless because Terrans are just fucking OP. And it is not about Last or Flash amazing skill, because I think JD strategical thinking and mechanics and all others skills are on the same level. He is just playing against OP Terrans. It is not without reason why Zerg didn't win any major tournament in SC for years!
User was warned for this post
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On September 08 2018 18:50 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 18:42 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 08 2018 18:35 Motivate wrote:On September 08 2018 18:31 Dante08 wrote:On September 08 2018 18:29 Uldridge wrote: Is 1-1-1 op? Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z It's really good but it's really fragile, one mistake early game and you're dead. When Last and Flash use it it does seem good. I think Zerg just needs to forget about attacking when Terrans do 1-1-1 and just drone like mad and get your third up. I think this is true. Zergs are really fixated on trying to beat 1-1-1 early on. Almost like when muta harass is going well, everyone always wants to win with guardians when really they should just get defilers and win lol. they try to beat them early on because thats when the build is weakest... even then its not THAT weak but if you play standard and you start off mid game at a disadvantage and it stays like that for too long. you dont know what terran is going to do and you dont know which units to build because theres a chance you get a straight up build order loss halfway through the game. thats what makes 1-1-1 so bs. the 4th game for example, cloaked wraiths arent that popular on pure 1-1-1. you see it with 1-1-2 or you see vessel production. but here is exactly where terran has the mind game advantage, jd has no choice but to roll the dice and attempt the standard muta harrass and hope that last didnt get cloaked wraiths. otherwise jd could have chosen hydra/lurker but hed still have to roll the dice and hope terran tried something other than standard vessel production. its hard to win when zerg HAS to attack terran first but terran can choose from 3 different ways to respond with the same opening and some of the responses straight up win you the game. On September 08 2018 18:38 Dante08 wrote:On September 08 2018 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time.
last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway.
this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran Really? I'm pretty sure if you rush to defiler you can get dark swarm out just in time. If you manage to get ultra armour I don't see why you won't have time for dark swarm. he didnt have ultra armour the first time he defended. it was +1 carapace on ultras. the thing about ultras also is you can spawn them and attack instantly, defilers would have just been irradiated while they sat around waiting for energy or consume to finish. when jd got his +4 finally last was also on +2/+1 so... I think the solution is standard 3 hatch --> get 2-3 hydras --> Spire into 4 scourge --> scout with the 4 scourge and produce mutas accordingly. At the same time get a fast third and tech to hive + lurker/defiler. Scouting with scourge would be the key as they are fast and even if you lose them it doesn't set you back much. well its not really a solution when your only chance to win is to either kill them early or just sit back and drone up for a macro game. the 1st is easier said than done and the 2nd, well terran enters the mid game with no economical damage, full sk terran and youve still lost at least a couple overlords at the beginning. its not unwinnable but its a sucky way to have to enter the mid game just because their build is too flexible
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I agree that T is op. Flash is good, as is Last, but they use Terran so basicly OP player on top of OP race = unbeatable.
User was warned for this post.
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