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On September 21 2018 11:51 Ben... wrote: What is the best way of handling early pool and one gas into expand without getting behind? I've faced it three times today, and each time was a different thing requiring a different response. The first was a random ling flood that I just didn't see coming because my scout probe died to a couple zerglings while scouting for thirds. I held it but they sniped by cybernetics core and I ended up too far behind to survive the hydra/ling/bane bust that followed. The next was a baneling bust that I also didn't see coming because it died to zerglings. They also targeted the cybernetics core and put me too behind to hold the followup. The third person built 6 lings to make it look like they were going to be aggressive and instead was super greedy behind it into a hydra/ling/bane bust.
I can hold the various builds, but I always end up far enough behind that I can't recover enough and die to something else. All three rushed hydras with baneling nests afterward, making them somewhat all-in proof. One adjustment I've made is going oracle first instead of phoenix before oracle but other than that I'm not sure. I usually send out an adept for scouting but they use the first zerglings to deny it from scouting and it doesn't scout baneling busts in time anyway. 1) to hold 16-20 drone speedling or ling/bane allins you need to scout with adepts as you cannot rely on keeping the probe alive. in every single PvZ you play you need to send one or both of your first two adepts to the area in front of zerg's natural and continually shade in, checking for drones and only later sacrificing them for a few kills when you're satisfied there's no all-in. whatever you're doing currently with your adept is wrong. diving the mineral line with one adept to get like two drones or completing a shade into his base before you know what you're playing against is pointless aggression that will make you die to attacks. zerg needs speed to kill your lings, and by the time he has speed you should be able to get a full scout. always be actively shading/canceling so if your adepts get surrounded by speedlings you can pop them into the natural and see the drone count + what's hatching. you don't need a lot of time to scout properly, you just need to look in the right place. count drones. 1 drone = negative 2 lings
2) baneling busts can be hard to interpret. if you're worried about them you can use your adept shades to scout the main base for gas/baneling nest, or you can just try to intuit the likelihood of banelings from how many lings your opponent has and where they're positioned. again, you need the adept scout for more information - if you see 16 lings come out of his base and only 10 attack your wall then he's hiding banelings. if he makes a crazy high number of lings but isn't trying to immediately overwhelm your wall with the lings then it's probably a later, dirtier baneling bust with more banelings, and you need to wall like crazy against these because they will have enough banelings to bust 3x3 building, most likely your core. aside from scouting, you need to practice walling - both standard walling and emergency walling. if you're really late identifying banelings the main way to keep yourself alive is by building a ridiculous wall of pylons, gateways and batteries behind your first wall and simply waiting for sentries. building a sentry after your first two or three adepts is also a way to make yourself very safe against banelings
3) 6 lings can mean different builds. i'm assuming you mean a quick 12/13 pool ling pressure. if so, all you need to do is chrono two zealots (remember an early second pylon so you have enough supply for 2x zealot + adept, and don't put the pylons next to each other in case of ravagers). once you have 2 zealots and an adept you can use your adept shade to check the area around your base for additional lings, and if there's no followup attack you can actually send your zealots out, follow them with the adept and counterattack his natural with your 3 units. it seems crazy/risky, but if he just made 6 lings and then nothing but drones then he won't have enough to defend and will have to evacuate his natural. alternately, the worst thing that happens is your units get caught on the map by speedling reinforcements and you have to beef up your wall at home. from there just expand and play a normal game
overall you're probably just defending for too long. one of the principals of starcraft is that if your opponent does a weak attack and falls behind then he has the option to switch gears into a lot of greed or tech while you still think he's about to bust you. going into "fast hydra/bane" is not really allin-proof at all, in fact it's very much the opposite. fast hydra dies to gateway allins. fast hydra/bane can hold, but only if he knows it's coming and morphs banes before the hydras come out. hydra/bane on 2 base saturation is tech greed by zerg and it is punishable. if you're holding hyper aggressive attacks without losing buildings or units and you're still losing macro games then there's something wrong with your macro that has nothing to do with build orders.
as for oracle before phoenix, absolutely very obviously stronger against aggro zerg. it's safer against attacks and has more aggressive potential if you aren't attacked. i normally only go phoenix into oracle if my followup is something slightly cheeky like a charge allin or double stargate phoenix, otherwise oracle first is literally always solid. oracles are even better than void rays against roach ravager rushes.
also, don't assume 3 bases is macro. zerg can make 3 bases and still do a hatch tech allin. you need to scout until you see saturation on the second base
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Hi, I'm struggling with PvT and PvZ - in PvT I'm not able to defend against one-base Cyclone push with SCV - stalkers with battery are to weak - my micro is not enough to handle it. Are there any better option? (fast robo?)
In PvZ I have problems with dealing with roach-hydra transition - where to switch from immortals to (collossi / templars?)
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On September 24 2018 18:23 Leszek wrote: Hi, I'm struggling with PvT and PvZ - in PvT I'm not able to defend against one-base Cyclone push with SCV - stalkers with battery are to weak - my micro is not enough to handle it. Are there any better option? (fast robo?)
In PvZ I have problems with dealing with roach-hydra transition - where to switch from immortals to (collossi / templars?) for cyclones you have to scout reactor factory and prepare. ideally hide probe and run up the ramp or into the natural to see what units he has coming out. if you know cyclones are coming or you have NO scout then you need at least 2 batteries. if terran is extremely committed then you can make up to 3 or 4 batteries as you are able to afford. you do need robo followup as well in case of additional cyclones, but stalkers are the answer. depending on map you can also use 1-2 sentries - force fields are strong against this on some maps if you place them well.
if there are many SCVs for mass repair, target the SCVs while microing your stalkers and buying time for more batteries and a robotics to finish. if you are sure you are going to die, you can pull probes to fight, especially if he pulled SCVs. probes are surprisingly good against cyclones. once you have multiple batteries and a good amount of stalkers, chrono immortals and then play normally from there. cyclone pushes are momentum-based, and as long as you buy time + kill SCVs you should be okay with decent micro.
also keep in mind that fast reactor factory can also be hellions, so walling your natural with gateways #2 and #3 is not a bad idea.
in PvZ you want to constantly build immortals until you confirm zerg is NOT making roaches. if it's many roaches + many hydras then keep making immortals while also adding storm. if it's lurker tech then it's also OK to keep making immortals. if it appears to be hydra/ling/bane then focus more on templar tech. you will need many storms for this, and if he morphs a VERY large number of banelings you need archons in the front so your zealots don't all die.
colossus can be OK, but they are not very strong, so use them as a map strategy or surprise tech. if you find yourself overwhelmed by units in PvZ you need to also make sure you are taking your third early enough - a very common problem for ladder protoss is not knowing when to take the third base in a proper macro game. if you play defensive macro with no meaningful harass and a late third in this meta then you are far behind zerg.
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On September 24 2018 18:23 Leszek wrote: Hi, I'm struggling with PvT and PvZ - in PvT I'm not able to defend against one-base Cyclone push with SCV - stalkers with battery are to weak - my micro is not enough to handle it. Are there any better option? (fast robo?)
In PvZ I have problems with dealing with roach-hydra transition - where to switch from immortals to (collossi / templars?)
Brickrd reply completely nailed it, but one thing I want to recommend..
When I was learning PvZ all the way up through diamond, it was my hardest matchup by far. The thing that helped me a lot was 1) playing a few ZvP from zerg perspective against a decent toss player, but more importantly 2) EVERY TIME you lose a PvZ, go look at the replay and watch it from the zerg players point of view and then watch it from the neutral point of view. after a while you will notice the trends in what to look for as a scouting toss player and what optimal timings for taking your third is. It took me MONTHS to figure out when to take a third as protoss because I didn't watch the replays. Also, recommend watching a few Korean PvZ games to see when they get a third. Don't try to copy them exactly with the in-game time because mechanically they are superior and can even be a minute ahead of diamond players on build order efficiency, but watch what structures they have and what units they have before they feel comfortable enough to expand.
Good luck, let us know if you have any more questions!
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Assuming scout after 14 pylon in PvT, you scout they are proxying, have taken both gasses. What gas count should you expect to be missing from refineries in order to determine they are proxying cyclones? does fast double gas guarantee cyclone rush or could it be something else?
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I just hit what is perhaps one of the more puzzling builds I've played against. It's a one base nydus speedling rush that hits before 3 minutes. With nydus being invincible until it pops and standard protoss builds not having enough units to quickly kill the nydus, I just wonder how it's even possible to beat it. They have enough zerglings to kill basically any gateway units protoss has out at that point. I was already chronoboosting out an oracle but it hit before that could even get out. They were getting lair at one minute and the nydus starts popping into my base at around 2:35-2:40. I didn't get that far but the strategy seems to be they go for probes, and if you run your probes to your natural, they target your main then spine crawler push the natural from the high ground. He had a spine already building when I left the game.
I scouted the early lair and even the nydus building, but even with cancelling my natural and immediately chronoing out units, it just killed me outright. At most you can have a few adepts, but those are no match for lings being rallied through a nydus targeting down pylons and the nexus.
It was basically a Wings of Liberty build, but without a nydus that can be killed with workers. I'll probably never see it again, but it was just strange to see such an aggressive build like that.
On October 04 2018 23:33 Tempest wrote: Assuming scout after 14 pylon in PvT, you scout they are proxying, have taken both gasses. What gas count should you expect to be missing from refineries in order to determine they are proxying cyclones? does fast double gas guarantee cyclone rush or could it be something else? I'd be curious to know too. I saw puck getting killed by Terran proxies about a week ago and half of the games didn't even look close, even with him specifically preparing for proxy cyclones (he did a neat thing where he built hit batteries on the high ground right against the cliff so they couldn't be targeted. That appears to work well on acid plant)
I've seen Terrans do variants where they do the double gas opening, get the reactor factory so it looks like cyclones, then proxy a starport, do a mine drop with a hellion push at the front followed up with liberators. It looked 100% identical to proxy cyclones because the starport was proxied elsewhere and the protoss only scouted the factory and barracks.
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On October 07 2018 12:59 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2018 23:33 Tempest wrote: Assuming scout after 14 pylon in PvT, you scout they are proxying, have taken both gasses. What gas count should you expect to be missing from refineries in order to determine they are proxying cyclones? does fast double gas guarantee cyclone rush or could it be something else? I'd be curious to know too. I saw puck getting killed by Terran proxies about a week ago and half of the games didn't even look close, even with him specifically preparing for proxy cyclones (he did a neat thing where he built hit batteries on the high ground right against the cliff so they couldn't be targeted. That appears to work well on acid plant) I've seen Terrans do variants where they do the double gas opening, get the reactor factory so it looks like cyclones, then proxy a starport, do a mine drop with a hellion push at the front followed up with liberators. It looked 100% identical to proxy cyclones because the starport was proxied elsewhere and the protoss only scouted the factory and barracks.
Heres the best response ive seen so far to the question I had, it seems accurate based on everybody I asked in masters:
On October 05 2018 22:04 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2018 23:38 Tempest wrote: Posted this in toss help me thread, but that thread can take a while to get a response, so ill post here as well:
Assuming scout after 14 pylon in PvT, you scout they are proxying, have taken both gasses. What gas count should you expect to be missing from refineries in order to determine they are proxying cyclones? does fast double gas guarantee cyclone rush or could it be something else? no, you can't just count gas and know what T is doing, that's part of the problem everyone is talking about right now with T proxying every single game. terrans have gone insane with build-hiding. even if you scout rax and depot block with no factory he could just be hiding the factory in the back of his base, then he could make hellions and cloak banshees. or it could indeed be proxy cyclone. even if you scout proxy factory you still don't know if there's a proxy starport, etc. etc. etc. a decent rule of thumb on ladder is that if you don't know what terran is opening then assume it's the worst thing. assume cyclones, assume hellions at the same time (wall your natural or at least be generally ready to defend a runby), then assume it could be cloak banshee too. generally this means defensive robo play into some warp prism counter-harass, although i understand phoenix is strong as well GSL super tournament was full of high level proxy PvT, so check out clips of those series for ideas from pros on how to approach the proxy nightmare
Ive started 14 pylon scouting instead of gateway scouting, and im pretty much going Stargate any time I see the hint of a proxy. I haven't noticed any gas counts as of yet that provide any tells. Its annoying but most of the time I can survive, but it is completely dependent on the earlier scout timing. I haven't been able to pull off the defense if gate scout yet. If I get lucky and the terran isn't better than me, oracle defense is usually good enough with Shield batteries, but about half the time im having to give up the natural.
Currently experimenting with partings 3gate prism build to see if that's able to defend proxy cyclones well enough, and I think it is, but sometimes my micro isn't good enough and if I lose the prism or stalks I cant hold. I think that is skill dependent though, im of the opinion its good enough to hold if the player using it is capable enough.
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Hey guys, I have 4 very specific questions about early cheese defense in PvP and PvZ, I hope someone can give me a detailled answer:
1) How do you choose the "proper" reaction to a Cannon Rush in PvP? I'm aware that you can pull Probes to chase enemy Probes (2 per Probe, yes/no?), and to try and prevent Pylons from going up (4 per Pylon, yes/no?); that you can chrono out a Zealot; and that you can get a Forge for defensive Cannons - but how do you decide which route to go? What are the factors that determine wether using one way or another is the proper decision? And are they exclusive or can/should you mix them up? (aka do you pull Probes as well when chronoing a Zealot? Do you chrono a Zealot as well when getting a defensive Forge? etc.)
2) Will scouting a Cannon Rush/The Forge earlier have any impact on that decision? The standard scout timing in PvP is after the 2nd Gateway is made, by then you'll have seen the Cannon Rush for a long time already. Would scouting earlier (lets say, a Pylon scout, maybe only on "obvious" Cannon Rush maps like Lost & Found) be beneficial in holding it? Or would the reaction to it be the same, regardless wether you scout it early or only when it already hits your base? Or is the minor cut in economy not worth it as the reaction wouldn't change?
3) What is the "proper" reactiong to a pool first opening in PvZ? I know you are still supposed to get your Nexus in time, as Zerg can still transition into a halfway normal macro position from a Pool first, so delaying your own Nat isn't recommended. I know you're supposed to chrono out a Zealot and finish your wall, but what priority does each of those steps have? A regular Gate scout timing in PvZ sees the Pool first at around the time when you get your Nexus at 20, so that leaves you with "no" minerals right away. In which order do you process the next steps? Do you use your first 100 minerals on chronoing the Zealot right away? Or does waiting another 50 to get the Cyber first have priority and you wait for the next 100 to chrono your Zealot? Or do you delay the Zealot for even longer to get both the Cyber Core first AND finish your wall with a third building before starting the Zealot?
4) Will scouting a Pool first earlier be useful? Aka would my reaction, or the priority of the different reaction steps, change if I for example Pylon scout instead of Gate scout? Or is it not worth the minor economy cut?
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Already thanks a lot in advance for the help
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On October 16 2018 21:49 SartPls wrote:Hey guys, I have 4 very specific questions about early cheese defense in PvP and PvZ, I hope someone can give me a detailled answer: 1) How do you choose the "proper" reaction to a Cannon Rush in PvP? I'm aware that you can pull Probes to chase enemy Probes (2 per Probe, yes/no?), and to try and prevent Pylons from going up (4 per Pylon, yes/no?); that you can chrono out a Zealot; and that you can get a Forge for defensive Cannons - but how do you decide which route to go? What are the factors that determine wether using one way or another is the proper decision? And are they exclusive or can/should you mix them up? (aka do you pull Probes as well when chronoing a Zealot? Do you chrono a Zealot as well when getting a defensive Forge? etc.) 2) Will scouting a Cannon Rush/The Forge earlier have any impact on that decision? The standard scout timing in PvP is after the 2nd Gateway is made, by then you'll have seen the Cannon Rush for a long time already. Would scouting earlier (lets say, a Pylon scout, maybe only on "obvious" Cannon Rush maps like Lost & Found) be beneficial in holding it? Or would the reaction to it be the same, regardless wether you scout it early or only when it already hits your base? Or is the minor cut in economy not worth it as the reaction wouldn't change? 3) What is the "proper" reactiong to a pool first opening in PvZ? I know you are still supposed to get your Nexus in time, as Zerg can still transition into a halfway normal macro position from a Pool first, so delaying your own Nat isn't recommended. I know you're supposed to chrono out a Zealot and finish your wall, but what priority does each of those steps have? A regular Gate scout timing in PvZ sees the Pool first at around the time when you get your Nexus at 20, so that leaves you with "no" minerals right away. In which order do you process the next steps? Do you use your first 100 minerals on chronoing the Zealot right away? Or does waiting another 50 to get the Cyber first have priority and you wait for the next 100 to chrono your Zealot? Or do you delay the Zealot for even longer to get both the Cyber Core first AND finish your wall with a third building before starting the Zealot? 4) Will scouting a Pool first earlier be useful? Aka would my reaction, or the priority of the different reaction steps, change if I for example Pylon scout instead of Gate scout? Or is it not worth the minor economy cut? --- Already thanks a lot in advance for the help
1) I personally never go the forge route, and I'm really not great at defending it but heres what I try to do :D Chrono a zealot, mine on one gas only. Ignore their pylons unless they wall themselves in your main and you see it early. Use 8 probes for cannon defense, 4 per cannon, + 1/2 chasing the enemy probes. Who cares if they have pylons if you can kill the cannons right? Once gates are done you chrono stalkers (might want to skip warpgate a while to be able to afford them). If you see the cannons when some are already finished you might either be dead or can somehow survive if you deny high ground vision by blocking your wall with a pylon and killing their probe inside your main.
2) The probe that builds your 2nd gas goes to check the natural where they could start cannons then back to build the 2nd gate when you have money and then scouts normally. So you'll spot the pylons or the very early enemy probe at that timing allowing you to respond much faster without having to go across the map super fast. Beware of early probes putting down a random pylon tho, it could be to force an overreaction. That's why if you see nothing low ground you follow the enemy probe with one probe and only pull probes if they build more than one pylon.
3) See early pool : stop probes - Nexus at normal timing - chrono a zealot (and a 2nd one once it finishes, you stopped probes so you won't get supply blocked at 22/23 which is always awkward) - cyber - 2nd pylon - pull 6-7 probes to defend your wall as the first zealot finishes and don't let lings go into your main
The first zealot should always come out in time even vs 12 pool on fracture. Finishing the wall or getting a 2nd gas slows down your build too much if the zerg drones behind it. Once your 2nd pylon finishes you can get an adept, resume probes, take another gas and tech up.
4) Nah gate scout is early enough. You still arrive before the gate is done so it doesn't slow down your zealot or anything.
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1) How do you choose the "proper" reaction to a Cannon Rush in PvP? I'm aware that you can pull Probes to chase enemy Probes (2 per Probe, yes/no?), and to try and prevent Pylons from going up (4 per Pylon, yes/no?); that you can chrono out a Zealot; and that you can get a Forge for defensive Cannons - but how do you decide which route to go? What are the factors that determine wether using one way or another is the proper decision? And are they exclusive or can/should you mix them up? (aka do you pull Probes as well when chronoing a Zealot? Do you chrono a Zealot as well when getting a defensive Forge? etc.)
When ever I am getting cannon rushed I use my scouting probe to build a proxy stargate and nexus at a hidden expansion. I build void rays out of the stargate and recall the probes to the new nexus. I learned it on MCannings stream and I have actually never lost to a cannon rush with it.
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On October 16 2018 23:42 ArtyK wrote: 1) I personally never go the forge route, and I'm really not great at defending it but heres what I try to do :D Chrono a zealot, mine on one gas only. Ignore their pylons unless they wall themselves in your main and you see it early. Use 8 probes for cannon defense, 4 per cannon, + 1/2 chasing the enemy probes. Who cares if they have pylons if you can kill the cannons right? Once gates are done you chrono stalkers (might want to skip warpgate a while to be able to afford them). If you see the cannons when some are already finished you might either be dead or can somehow survive if you deny high ground vision by blocking your wall with a pylon and killing their probe inside your main.
2) The probe that builds your 2nd gas goes to check the natural where they could start cannons then back to build the 2nd gate when you have money and then scouts normally. So you'll spot the pylons or the very early enemy probe at that timing allowing you to respond much faster without having to go across the map super fast. Beware of early probes putting down a random pylon tho, it could be to force an overreaction. That's why if you see nothing low ground you follow the enemy probe with one probe and only pull probes if they build more than one pylon.
3) See early pool : stop probes - Nexus at normal timing - chrono a zealot (and a 2nd one once it finishes, you stopped probes so you won't get supply blocked at 22/23 which is always awkward) - cyber - 2nd pylon - pull 6-7 probes to defend your wall as the first zealot finishes and don't let lings go into your main
The first zealot should always come out in time even vs 12 pool on fracture. Finishing the wall or getting a 2nd gas slows down your build too much if the zerg drones behind it. Once your 2nd pylon finishes you can get an adept, resume probes, take another gas and tech up.
4) Nah gate scout is early enough. You still arrive before the gate is done so it doesn't slow down your zealot or anything.
Hey, thanks for the reply! And yeah, I do what you described on 1 + 2 almost exactly that way, but I have very mediocre results with it, that's why I was looking for potential flaws in my thought process Good to know I'm on the right track though, because I was getting very frustrated lately by my PvP, and especially my Cannon Rush defense, holding me back on the ladder. I made Master for the first time a few weeks ago, but fail to keep it consistently, so I drop back out to dia 1 and back in to Masters 24/7
For the early pool defense, when do you actually finish your wall in that scenario? Since ESPECIALLY when pulling Probes on top of it, how do you ever afford the 3rd building for your wall in time? As the only maps you could wall with 2 buildings (and a potential Pylon) are Fracture and Dreamcatcher, all others require three 3x3 buildings for a complete wall?
Edit: While we're at it, how do you guys decide which way to wall off vs Random players? It feels like Protoss gets exceptionally more fucked over facing Random than the other 2 races, as you require very specific methods of walling off in each different MU.
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Austria24413 Posts
On October 17 2018 14:23 ZackAttack wrote:Show nested quote +1) How do you choose the "proper" reaction to a Cannon Rush in PvP? I'm aware that you can pull Probes to chase enemy Probes (2 per Probe, yes/no?), and to try and prevent Pylons from going up (4 per Pylon, yes/no?); that you can chrono out a Zealot; and that you can get a Forge for defensive Cannons - but how do you decide which route to go? What are the factors that determine wether using one way or another is the proper decision? And are they exclusive or can/should you mix them up? (aka do you pull Probes as well when chronoing a Zealot? Do you chrono a Zealot as well when getting a defensive Forge? etc.) When ever I am getting cannon rushed I use my scouting probe to build a proxy stargate and nexus at a hidden expansion. I build void rays out of the stargate and recall the probes to the new nexus. I learned it on MCannings stream and I have actually never lost to a cannon rush with it.
Is there a replay you could share? Would love to try that.
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On October 17 2018 16:47 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2018 23:42 ArtyK wrote: 1) I personally never go the forge route, and I'm really not great at defending it but heres what I try to do :D Chrono a zealot, mine on one gas only. Ignore their pylons unless they wall themselves in your main and you see it early. Use 8 probes for cannon defense, 4 per cannon, + 1/2 chasing the enemy probes. Who cares if they have pylons if you can kill the cannons right? Once gates are done you chrono stalkers (might want to skip warpgate a while to be able to afford them). If you see the cannons when some are already finished you might either be dead or can somehow survive if you deny high ground vision by blocking your wall with a pylon and killing their probe inside your main.
2) The probe that builds your 2nd gas goes to check the natural where they could start cannons then back to build the 2nd gate when you have money and then scouts normally. So you'll spot the pylons or the very early enemy probe at that timing allowing you to respond much faster without having to go across the map super fast. Beware of early probes putting down a random pylon tho, it could be to force an overreaction. That's why if you see nothing low ground you follow the enemy probe with one probe and only pull probes if they build more than one pylon.
3) See early pool : stop probes - Nexus at normal timing - chrono a zealot (and a 2nd one once it finishes, you stopped probes so you won't get supply blocked at 22/23 which is always awkward) - cyber - 2nd pylon - pull 6-7 probes to defend your wall as the first zealot finishes and don't let lings go into your main
The first zealot should always come out in time even vs 12 pool on fracture. Finishing the wall or getting a 2nd gas slows down your build too much if the zerg drones behind it. Once your 2nd pylon finishes you can get an adept, resume probes, take another gas and tech up.
4) Nah gate scout is early enough. You still arrive before the gate is done so it doesn't slow down your zealot or anything. Hey, thanks for the reply! And yeah, I do what you described on 1 + 2 almost exactly that way, but I have very mediocre results with it, that's why I was looking for potential flaws in my thought process Good to know I'm on the right track though, because I was getting very frustrated lately by my PvP, and especially my Cannon Rush defense, holding me back on the ladder. I made Master for the first time a few weeks ago, but fail to keep it consistently, so I drop back out to dia 1 and back in to Masters 24/7 For the early pool defense, when do you actually finish your wall in that scenario? Since ESPECIALLY when pulling Probes on top of it, how do you ever afford the 3rd building for your wall in time? As the only maps you could wall with 2 buildings (and a potential Pylon) are Fracture and Dreamcatcher, all others require three 3x3 buildings for a complete wall? Edit: While we're at it, how do you guys decide which way to wall off vs Random players? It feels like Protoss gets exceptionally more fucked over facing Random than the other 2 races, as you require very specific methods of walling off in each different MU.
Heres a replay vs the cannons-in-your-face version https://drop.sc/replay/8675029 I didn't check my natural before the 2nd gate, which was a mistake, but the early enemy probe was suspicious enough so I chased it, and only reacted to their pylon when I saw their second probe. I forgot to mention that I usually cancel the 2nd gate for the defense, so I'm able to afford zealot + cyber as soon as the first gate finishes... another mistake in the replay, as I canceled the gate but made the cyber 3 hours later and got supply blocked :D But denying the cannons and ignoring pylons was enough. The followup 4 gate was just taking advantage of their late warpgate. If they tried something like expand behind mass cannons instead, you'd want a robo for a warp prism to blink and warp in their main.
vs early pools you don't finish your wall but you want something to protect your pylon and prevent lings from getting into your main. Closing the wall so early is too expensive and they will attack it to force a cancel anyway, while you get 0 damage on the lings. It delays your build a ton and makes the probe pull much less effective as you have to funnel your probes in the choke if you even want to prevent the lings from cancelling your building.
Replay vs 12 pool hatch : https://drop.sc/replay/8675031 I have no clue why I pulled so few probes to defend, AND I got 22/23 supply blocked delaying my 2nd zealot... don't do this at home. My double 1x1 wall saved my first zealot though, so I got lucky there for sure. But as you see once I defended, I have 21 probes to 13 drones, nexus finished and warpgate started. Then because I knew it was a 12 pool expand with late gas, I'm comfortable moving out to force units and kill drones with the first adept and zealots. If it was early gas-pool I would have reinforced my wall and added a shield battery at least.
vs random start a pylon and gate at the top of your main ramp. If you scout protoss you can continue normally with a second gate in your wall, or vs terran, with the usual nexus and then cyber out of the wall. If it's a zerg going hatch first you just place your second pylon at the natural, you will still be able to wall before their ling speed kicks in. If they early pool with no gas you can do the same defense as in the replay above, so you won't delay your nexus even if the only building at your natural is the 2nd pylon. I have no experience in this situation vs early gas-pool, but walling before they get ling speed or banes is probably too risky, it'll probably be more wise to one base yourself, or delay the nexus for a while at least.
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On October 17 2018 16:48 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2018 14:23 ZackAttack wrote:1) How do you choose the "proper" reaction to a Cannon Rush in PvP? I'm aware that you can pull Probes to chase enemy Probes (2 per Probe, yes/no?), and to try and prevent Pylons from going up (4 per Pylon, yes/no?); that you can chrono out a Zealot; and that you can get a Forge for defensive Cannons - but how do you decide which route to go? What are the factors that determine wether using one way or another is the proper decision? And are they exclusive or can/should you mix them up? (aka do you pull Probes as well when chronoing a Zealot? Do you chrono a Zealot as well when getting a defensive Forge? etc.) When ever I am getting cannon rushed I use my scouting probe to build a proxy stargate and nexus at a hidden expansion. I build void rays out of the stargate and recall the probes to the new nexus. I learned it on MCannings stream and I have actually never lost to a cannon rush with it. Is there a replay you could share? Would love to try that.
Sure, I actually just did it again yesterday and the guy found my stargate after i proxied it and I still easily won. I'll edit this post with a replay when I get home from work. As a side note, I think one of the best parts about defending a cannon rush like this is that you have a plan that doesn't involve panic building a zealot or pulling probes, so it's easy to stay calm.
Edit: Here's the replay. As you can see, I dont even really know what I'm doing that well. As soon as I know it is a cannon rush, I just stop building anything but cyber->stargate->nexus. You can get the money for everything fairly quickly. I dont think they will be ablle to keep you from mining enough to get everything you need unless it is a very aggressive cannon rush.
Sometimes they will leave as soon as they see the first void. Sometimes they will try to take your main and be super spread out. Sometimes they try to build a bunch of cannons which sucks against voids. I think most of the time once their cannons get up they kind of zone out and assume they won and make a lot of mistakes. It's not an autowin, but as I said, it hasn't failed me yet and its been at least 15 times.
https://drop.sc/replay/8679262
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On October 18 2018 04:25 ZackAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2018 16:48 Olli wrote:On October 17 2018 14:23 ZackAttack wrote:1) How do you choose the "proper" reaction to a Cannon Rush in PvP? I'm aware that you can pull Probes to chase enemy Probes (2 per Probe, yes/no?), and to try and prevent Pylons from going up (4 per Pylon, yes/no?); that you can chrono out a Zealot; and that you can get a Forge for defensive Cannons - but how do you decide which route to go? What are the factors that determine wether using one way or another is the proper decision? And are they exclusive or can/should you mix them up? (aka do you pull Probes as well when chronoing a Zealot? Do you chrono a Zealot as well when getting a defensive Forge? etc.) When ever I am getting cannon rushed I use my scouting probe to build a proxy stargate and nexus at a hidden expansion. I build void rays out of the stargate and recall the probes to the new nexus. I learned it on MCannings stream and I have actually never lost to a cannon rush with it. Is there a replay you could share? Would love to try that. Sure, I actually just did it again yesterday and the guy found my stargate after i proxied it and I still easily won. I'll edit this post with a replay when I get home from work. As a side note, I think one of the best parts about defending a cannon rush like this is that you have a plan that doesn't involve panic building a zealot or pulling probes, so it's easy to stay calm.
This is a very good responses when it works but it is map dependent imo / cannon rush dependent. On a map like lost and found for example, they can reach your mineral line / nexus so quickly that this can be very dangerous, and rushes that go for the mineral straight away are also a big problem. Against low ground cannon rush, I think it really is an auto-win on some maps.
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On October 17 2018 20:38 ArtyK wrote:Heres a replay vs the cannons-in-your-face version https://drop.sc/replay/8675029I didn't check my natural before the 2nd gate, which was a mistake, but the early enemy probe was suspicious enough so I chased it, and only reacted to their pylon when I saw their second probe. I forgot to mention that I usually cancel the 2nd gate for the defense, so I'm able to afford zealot + cyber as soon as the first gate finishes... another mistake in the replay, as I canceled the gate but made the cyber 3 hours later and got supply blocked :D But denying the cannons and ignoring pylons was enough. The followup 4 gate was just taking advantage of their late warpgate. If they tried something like expand behind mass cannons instead, you'd want a robo for a warp prism to blink and warp in their main. vs early pools you don't finish your wall but you want something to protect your pylon and prevent lings from getting into your main. Closing the wall so early is too expensive and they will attack it to force a cancel anyway, while you get 0 damage on the lings. It delays your build a ton and makes the probe pull much less effective as you have to funnel your probes in the choke if you even want to prevent the lings from cancelling your building. Replay vs 12 pool hatch : https://drop.sc/replay/8675031I have no clue why I pulled so few probes to defend, AND I got 22/23 supply blocked delaying my 2nd zealot... don't do this at home. My double 1x1 wall saved my first zealot though, so I got lucky there for sure. But as you see once I defended, I have 21 probes to 13 drones, nexus finished and warpgate started. Then because I knew it was a 12 pool expand with late gas, I'm comfortable moving out to force units and kill drones with the first adept and zealots. If it was early gas-pool I would have reinforced my wall and added a shield battery at least. vs random start a pylon and gate at the top of your main ramp. If you scout protoss you can continue normally with a second gate in your wall, or vs terran, with the usual nexus and then cyber out of the wall. If it's a zerg going hatch first you just place your second pylon at the natural, you will still be able to wall before their ling speed kicks in. If they early pool with no gas you can do the same defense as in the replay above, so you won't delay your nexus even if the only building at your natural is the 2nd pylon. I have no experience in this situation vs early gas-pool, but walling before they get ling speed or banes is probably too risky, it'll probably be more wise to one base yourself, or delay the nexus for a while at least.
This was amazing, thank you so much. Now I've got 2 more questions, then I promise I'll stop :D
1) When you hold the 12 Pool like that, do you just continue with your regular build, but "delay" everything? Or skip certain steps? It seems like after you invest that much in defense, still going for a SG -> Oracle -> Phoenix almost seems like a waste, so would it maybe be better to straight up get the Archon drop tech instead?
and 2) Since we covered the "offensive cheese", let's get a question about economic cheese as well I know it's not an actual thing (or at least shouldn't, but everything's a thing on the ladder), but how do you react properly to something like a Nexus first in PvP? Or to a lesser extent, a 1 Gate FE? Do you just hit 'em with the good ol' 4 Gate? Or drop your own Nexus asap and play your standard game?
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On October 18 2018 18:57 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2018 20:38 ArtyK wrote:Heres a replay vs the cannons-in-your-face version https://drop.sc/replay/8675029I didn't check my natural before the 2nd gate, which was a mistake, but the early enemy probe was suspicious enough so I chased it, and only reacted to their pylon when I saw their second probe. I forgot to mention that I usually cancel the 2nd gate for the defense, so I'm able to afford zealot + cyber as soon as the first gate finishes... another mistake in the replay, as I canceled the gate but made the cyber 3 hours later and got supply blocked :D But denying the cannons and ignoring pylons was enough. The followup 4 gate was just taking advantage of their late warpgate. If they tried something like expand behind mass cannons instead, you'd want a robo for a warp prism to blink and warp in their main. vs early pools you don't finish your wall but you want something to protect your pylon and prevent lings from getting into your main. Closing the wall so early is too expensive and they will attack it to force a cancel anyway, while you get 0 damage on the lings. It delays your build a ton and makes the probe pull much less effective as you have to funnel your probes in the choke if you even want to prevent the lings from cancelling your building. Replay vs 12 pool hatch : https://drop.sc/replay/8675031I have no clue why I pulled so few probes to defend, AND I got 22/23 supply blocked delaying my 2nd zealot... don't do this at home. My double 1x1 wall saved my first zealot though, so I got lucky there for sure. But as you see once I defended, I have 21 probes to 13 drones, nexus finished and warpgate started. Then because I knew it was a 12 pool expand with late gas, I'm comfortable moving out to force units and kill drones with the first adept and zealots. If it was early gas-pool I would have reinforced my wall and added a shield battery at least. vs random start a pylon and gate at the top of your main ramp. If you scout protoss you can continue normally with a second gate in your wall, or vs terran, with the usual nexus and then cyber out of the wall. If it's a zerg going hatch first you just place your second pylon at the natural, you will still be able to wall before their ling speed kicks in. If they early pool with no gas you can do the same defense as in the replay above, so you won't delay your nexus even if the only building at your natural is the 2nd pylon. I have no experience in this situation vs early gas-pool, but walling before they get ling speed or banes is probably too risky, it'll probably be more wise to one base yourself, or delay the nexus for a while at least. This was amazing, thank you so much. Now I've got 2 more questions, then I promise I'll stop :D 1) When you hold the 12 Pool like that, do you just continue with your regular build, but "delay" everything? Or skip certain steps? It seems like after you invest that much in defense, still going for a SG -> Oracle -> Phoenix almost seems like a waste, so would it maybe be better to straight up get the Archon drop tech instead? and 2) Since we covered the "offensive cheese", let's get a question about economic cheese as well I know it's not an actual thing (or at least shouldn't, but everything's a thing on the ladder), but how do you react properly to something like a Nexus first in PvP? Or to a lesser extent, a 1 Gate FE? Do you just hit 'em with the good ol' 4 Gate? Or drop your own Nexus asap and play your standard game?
Useful video for the probe pull micro (I recommend his other videos too, the format is not time consuming ^^) + Show Spoiler +
1) I'm not really a SG player in PvZ, but you could still continue with whatever build you prefer. Though with how far ahead I was in that game, I chose a 2 base allin to close it out. Why take a 3rd and let them greed their way back... or punish our 3rd with nydus like they did :p
2) Well the tough part is that the very few people risking that in PvP know that the most likely reaction is a one base allin. So everything in their build past the nexus is ultra safe : fast battery, fast robo, chronod immortal...
With lack of practice vs this I couldn't tell what's best. Theres the 4 gate, with 4 stalkers from your first gates to kill as much as possible while chronoing WG and adding 2 proxy gates. I also heard of an alternative which is get a stargate, expand yourself and go phoenixes. With their late gate units, they might not be able to save any probes.
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On October 18 2018 18:57 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2018 20:38 ArtyK wrote:Heres a replay vs the cannons-in-your-face version https://drop.sc/replay/8675029I didn't check my natural before the 2nd gate, which was a mistake, but the early enemy probe was suspicious enough so I chased it, and only reacted to their pylon when I saw their second probe. I forgot to mention that I usually cancel the 2nd gate for the defense, so I'm able to afford zealot + cyber as soon as the first gate finishes... another mistake in the replay, as I canceled the gate but made the cyber 3 hours later and got supply blocked :D But denying the cannons and ignoring pylons was enough. The followup 4 gate was just taking advantage of their late warpgate. If they tried something like expand behind mass cannons instead, you'd want a robo for a warp prism to blink and warp in their main. vs early pools you don't finish your wall but you want something to protect your pylon and prevent lings from getting into your main. Closing the wall so early is too expensive and they will attack it to force a cancel anyway, while you get 0 damage on the lings. It delays your build a ton and makes the probe pull much less effective as you have to funnel your probes in the choke if you even want to prevent the lings from cancelling your building. Replay vs 12 pool hatch : https://drop.sc/replay/8675031I have no clue why I pulled so few probes to defend, AND I got 22/23 supply blocked delaying my 2nd zealot... don't do this at home. My double 1x1 wall saved my first zealot though, so I got lucky there for sure. But as you see once I defended, I have 21 probes to 13 drones, nexus finished and warpgate started. Then because I knew it was a 12 pool expand with late gas, I'm comfortable moving out to force units and kill drones with the first adept and zealots. If it was early gas-pool I would have reinforced my wall and added a shield battery at least. vs random start a pylon and gate at the top of your main ramp. If you scout protoss you can continue normally with a second gate in your wall, or vs terran, with the usual nexus and then cyber out of the wall. If it's a zerg going hatch first you just place your second pylon at the natural, you will still be able to wall before their ling speed kicks in. If they early pool with no gas you can do the same defense as in the replay above, so you won't delay your nexus even if the only building at your natural is the 2nd pylon. I have no experience in this situation vs early gas-pool, but walling before they get ling speed or banes is probably too risky, it'll probably be more wise to one base yourself, or delay the nexus for a while at least. This was amazing, thank you so much. Now I've got 2 more questions, then I promise I'll stop :D 2) Since we covered the "offensive cheese", let's get a question about economic cheese as well I know it's not an actual thing (or at least shouldn't, but everything's a thing on the ladder), but how do you react properly to something like a Nexus first in PvP? Or to a lesser extent, a 1 Gate FE? Do you just hit 'em with the good ol' 4 Gate? Or drop your own Nexus asap and play your standard game?
If they go nexus first, you can abuse it by opening 2x adept. You will murder all of their probes. Theoretically a 4 gate should win as well, even if they have the shield batteries and a few units, unless you mess up something drastically. 3 gate stalker with prism showcased here
https://old.reddit.com/r/allthingsprotoss/comments/8ku6k9/build_of_the_week_pvp_manas_3gate_warp_prism_allin/
is an auto win even if they have an immediate immortal followup. For a while I was obsessed with trying to find a way to economically cheese in PvP, and for now I just don't think its possible. at the time I was a 3500 asking my 3900 buddy to cheese economically (1 gate fe) and I beat him every time with adept pressure into 4 gate or 3 gate blink stalker. Your opponent would have to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than you for them to successfully pull off a fast expand, in which case you shouldn't feel bad anyways. a decently put together 4 gate should be the easiest (and probably best) response to economic cheese in PvP.
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On October 18 2018 21:03 ArtyK wrote:Useful video for the probe pull micro (I recommend his other videos too, the format is not time consuming ^^) + Show Spoiler +1) I'm not really a SG player in PvZ, but you could still continue with whatever build you prefer. Though with how far ahead I was in that game, I chose a 2 base allin to close it out. Why take a 3rd and let them greed their way back... or punish our 3rd with nydus like they did :p 2) Well the tough part is that the very few people risking that in PvP know that the most likely reaction is a one base allin. So everything in their build past the nexus is ultra safe : fast battery, fast robo, chronod immortal... With lack of practice vs this I couldn't tell what's best. Theres the 4 gate, with 4 stalkers from your first gates to kill as much as possible while chronoing WG and adding 2 proxy gates. I also heard of an alternative which is get a stargate, expand yourself and go phoenixes. With their late gate units, they might not be able to save any probes.
Not a big fan of Printf for obvious reasons but ty
And I think it was a misunderstanding about SG in PvZ. I didn't mean double SG mass Phoenix, just the regular SG for the initial Phoenix + Oracle that almost every regular PvZ build gets - if i should still get that after holding a pool first, or just skipping it for "the next steps"
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On October 19 2018 03:13 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 21:03 ArtyK wrote:Useful video for the probe pull micro (I recommend his other videos too, the format is not time consuming ^^) + Show Spoiler +1) I'm not really a SG player in PvZ, but you could still continue with whatever build you prefer. Though with how far ahead I was in that game, I chose a 2 base allin to close it out. Why take a 3rd and let them greed their way back... or punish our 3rd with nydus like they did :p 2) Well the tough part is that the very few people risking that in PvP know that the most likely reaction is a one base allin. So everything in their build past the nexus is ultra safe : fast battery, fast robo, chronod immortal... With lack of practice vs this I couldn't tell what's best. Theres the 4 gate, with 4 stalkers from your first gates to kill as much as possible while chronoing WG and adding 2 proxy gates. I also heard of an alternative which is get a stargate, expand yourself and go phoenixes. With their late gate units, they might not be able to save any probes. Not a big fan of Printf for obvious reasons but ty And I think it was a misunderstanding about SG in PvZ. I didn't mean double SG mass Phoenix, just the regular SG for the initial Phoenix + Oracle that almost every regular PvZ build gets - if i should still get that after holding a pool first, or just skipping it for "the next steps"
I understood ^^ I just never open stargate personally, even for single oracle/phoenix :p But like I said, you can do whatever. With this response your build is pretty close to normal, as opposed to cyber or even full walling before nexus.
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