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SC2 - New Zerg Mechanic proposal
Hi,
Even if i am quite confident on Blizzard capacity to release a great game, I feel a bit worried about the Zerg race which seems to be less played and to produce less excitement, up to now... You will notice easily, I'm far from being an expert of SC, but I tried to analyze some strong tendency of SC2.
1) Protoss - They won in mobility: Remote deployment of new created units (no more recall sadly), teleportation "Blink" of light unit (Stalker), Capacity to move regardless of ground difficulties (up and down cliff for Colossus) - They do not possess anymore units, which deal a huge but localized amount of damages like Reaver, but on the contrary they tried to create an "energize" race... shield, laser sweeping, warp prism, flying power supply... Protoss is always as resistant as before but the lore is now more focused on energies and its use, I think... Above a certain threshold it's doom on earth, Protoss cauterize any threat... it's quite esthetic.
2) Terran - They won in mobility: Reaper Jump, Viking transformation... - They won in "strong" fire power: with the Thor for example. The Raven on its side can deal huge amount of damage thanks to its Seeker Missile. In a way Blizzard gives the Reaver to the Terran, because terran make powder speak. It feels well... Terran lore... Terran are note very subtle, they are antique compared to Protoss, so no subtle energy, they use powder, explosion, missile, nuclear. Human makes everything explode and make it well. Smoke and oil everywhere... (I'm sad by the way that such a mythic unit as the Tank seems to be disgraced...)
3) Zerg - I think Defiler disappearance is hard... but the real problem is not here. The game changes, I hope for the best, and it's natural such unit disappears. It's not SC1. The Zerg MISS something. OK they have new units (Baneling Rocks), some with great graphics (personally I love corruptor look... but just the look sadly...) But outside those improvement and changes, the race miss an exciting strategic improvement... - Mobility has been improved for Protoss and Terran, not really for Zerg. - Damage Philosophy is I think more coherent for both Protoss and Terran... But Zerg does not have real changes on this field neither...
I may not have the "perfect" solution, or I may even be completely wrong, but I came with an idea I really want to submit to the TL community: I read Starcraft "tempest" quite a time ago and recently an interesting mechanism of Zerg lore came back to me. (I hope i'm right on this one...)
After a planet is conquered, all threat destroyed or Assimilated/Absorbed for the improvement of Zerg ADN database, all Zerg fighting units return to the Zerg resource matrix. All units are dilute/recycled/salvage in order to use all those raw material for the colonies development. It is a part of Zerg Lore...
I propose this capacity:
Unit Salvation / Return to Zerg matrix. Evolution built from: hatchery (for example) Cost: 50 gas, 50 Minerals (for example) Target: All Zerg creatures, once this evolution is researched have the ability to sacrifice itself IF AND ONLY IF it is currently located ON CREEP. Effect: Zerg player earn equal resources than the unit cost Duration of salvation process: 3-4 second ? As much time as a Protoss warp-in I think... Side effect: Creature is surrounded with a cocoon very very vulnerable (0 armor - half of life-point) and need to complete the whole process to be salvaged. Warning: if the creep is physically linked to an other Zerg player Hatchery AND not to one of yours, then you lose the resources...
Zerg are masters of genetics, physical improvements, they keep evolving, recycle their resources for a better purpose... They are the personification of adaptation, survival, they are sneaky... This mechanism will bring the Zerg the capacity to be more unpredictable. The strength of the Zerg race lives in its adaptive skills!
I don't see a real drawback on game balance... I see more challenge for Protoss and Terran. You cannot really trust what you saw, if your information is a bit too old, you need to quickly update it, in order to be prepared! It's important than the process occur on creep, creep is a part of Zerg matrix.
NYDUS-ATTACK? The Unit Salvation won't replace nydus woms. Simply because your units are kind of destroyed and need to me either re-created or used for a different purpose... So attack is not even possible. NYDUS-DEFENSE? If you have a Nydus close to your units... you should use it, because it would be a 100% more effective and quick. But if you don't have one, or don't have one to go to the right base/expansion, then a Salvation (far from templar’s eyes to avoid a storm on your fragile cocoon) thanks to a simple Overlord Excreting Creep, followed by a creation of New Unit on your base (accelerated with a Queen) could be very usefull...
Sacrificing a Ultralisk to create 12 Zerglings in a hurry on a far far away base, or sacrificing a Ultralisk to create a new Hatchery somewhere else are example... A base recently destroyed, you salvage your remaining useless Drone before creep disappears (if possible) to create Zerglings or to create a new hatchery... You produce a ton of Mutalisks but want to switch quickly to Hydralisks or Zerglings/Ultralisks... Assuming you HAVE the good building and evolution, you could do that... Of course if you paid only air attack upgrades and switch entirely to ground attack, that's your problem....
So... It was just a reflexion which may add (if not unbalanced) interesting new strategic possibility...
Another idea, more modest, was to provide Zerg with a unit able to protect them versus spell caster. I do not think about dark archon capacity but more a creature which would be very very fragile but able to forbid spell caster to use their abilities if they are located in the creature zone of effect... careful, the creature DO NOT protect itself or other Zerg unit from spell effect (a storm will always be very efficient), but prevent caster to use their abilities if they are too close to the creature (passive or active ability?).... It harms no one but can be very annoying... After mind control, it does not seem to be that far from Zerg lore... Zerg cannot control energies, but their Overlord and Overmind are creature with strong and powerful mind ! Infestors reflects this capacity to interact with enemies mind... why not then, a creature which can make other caster harmless...
This one was short to explain...
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Nice idea, goes very well with the concept/lore, and with your specifics shouldn't be too hard to implement without balance issues. Actually in case of sharing creep and using the ability maybe the resources should be split between the allies?
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Effectively... However I think that it is more careful to let sharing resources to a less unpredictable, different mechanics. It would be frustrating to recycle units for a personal purpose, and not to be able to realize it because of sharing of resources...
To my opinion, it is necessary to simplify a maximum the earnings of resource. I am not against the sharing, but it would better I think to avoid complicating too much the rule...
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Aren't you just combining Terran and Protoss mechanics?
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yes, i also think zerg still needs new inventions. the transition from early to late tier units does not feel clean in my eyes. i dont know how to explain it, but to me they just feel not ready.
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I had a hard time digesting your post, but if I read it right, I like the idea about the reabsorption of Zerg units into friendly creep in exchange for resources. It's very zergy -- very zergy indeed. However, I think it should be limited to units, creep tumors, and the two crawlers -- and even then it should only have about an 85% return rate. The unit's HP should also be accounted for, since getting full payment back from a unit that is nearly dead wouldn't do -- not at all. So, the final equation should look something like this:
(resources gained) = (unit cost)*(%HP remaining)*(85%)
And to be honest, I wouldn't mind losing the Terran salvage ability for this to exist. I fully agree that the Zerg have been a bit bamboozled in terms of new features.
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On July 29 2009 22:34 n00bonicPlague wrote: I had a hard time digesting your post, but if I read it right, I like the idea about the reabsorption of Zerg units into friendly creep in exchange for resources.
You are right, it's exactly what I tried to illustrate... I had quite a hard time trying to explain that in english (T__T).
However, I'm not sure this hability should be available to zerg building... I was only thinking to zerg "moving" unit... But why not after all, if indeed it does not compete to much with Terran Lore..
(resources gained) = (unit cost)*(%HP remaining)*(85%)
Sound better you're right...
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I can see your idea being implemented in the game. It does seem quite plausible to add and balance it out. My only concern is that if you drain down those units, assuming you're going to make different units, where are you going to get the extra larvae? I understand that the queen has a spawn larvae ability, but I'm not sure if that extra capacity is enough to make all the rapidly gained resources viable for the creation of other units. The queen's ability may be strong enough to offset it (I haven't played SC2 yet) but this is just a concern.
And the second idea may be a little far out there. I mean, neural parasite is more of an infestation-type thing that boggles with the enemy's mind. It doesn't really link back to the infestor's superior intelligence, so much as a biological missle-like thing that lodges itself in the target's head. And for the overlord/overmind are just controlling a bunch of primitive monstrosities and I don't think they have the power to control the mind of a unit that can shoot lightning and stuff with their head alone. I suggest leaving the mind games to the Protoss.
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Good theorycrafting. However it should be noted that creep (and its effects) are neutral.
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Not sure this is the right mechanic for Zerg. They already have amazing flexibility (want to switch production from all zerglings to all mutas? No problem! All your production buildings can do that, and switch over to Lurkers later on as well), so an optimized BO will already let you occupy all your larvae to quickly produce units of a certain type as soon as you meet the tech requirements for them.
So, I find that while the concept and lore make sense, it's not a good fit from a gameplay perspective.
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On July 29 2009 23:03 Aznleeman wrote: I can see your idea being implemented in the game. It does seem quite plausible to add and balance it out. My only concern is that if you drain down those units, assuming you're going to make different units, where are you going to get the extra larvae? I understand that the queen has a spawn larvae ability, but I'm not sure if that extra capacity is enough to make all the rapidly gained resources viable for the creation of other units. The queen's ability may be strong enough to offset it (I haven't played SC2 yet) but this is just a concern. Most Zerg players have several H/L/Hs, and last I heard multiple Queens can be built. I think there will be plenty of larvae lying around waiting to be morphed.
I posted this idea on a few other forums, with some modifications:
Got this idea from this TL post. Essentially, after researching "Absorb" at a Lair, the Zerg would be able to take any unit sitting on creep (that links with a friendly H/L/H) and "digest" it to get a return of the resources it took to morph that unit -- a return that would be controlled by the unit's HP and a "control percentage". The equation would look something like this: (resources gained) = (unit cost)*(%HP remaining)*(control percentage) It would be important to have the %HP factor in there, since getting nearly full resources back for a nearly dead unit would be completely imba. The control percentage would be there to prevent the player from throwing around resources like whatever. I think about 85% would be good. This would give the Zerg a mechanic that is unique and very, very zergy in nature, and it would work very well with the Queen's larvae mechanic. I would be happy to lose the Terran's salvage in order to let the Zerg have this mechanic. http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956#1 http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?p=305601#1
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I like the idea a lot.
Nice idea, goes very well with the concept/lore, and with your specifics shouldn't be too hard to implement without balance issues. Actually in case of sharing creep and using the ability maybe the resources should be split between the allies?
Imo it should stick to the player's creep only. Mechanic would be easier, plus lore-wise the cerebrate (player) should not need to share resources; each one is an independent Hivemind.
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It sounds feasible but I think it would turn out to be imbalanced unless they only recieved a fraction of the original cost for that. I can see every zerg player either using the queens ability to spawn creep(it can can't it?) or putting a hatch in an expo really close to their base, just so they can keep changing unit types. This would allow them to pressure hard with a unit, such as zerg vs protoss with hydras against fe, selling hydras at your close creep timed with 1-2 drones arriving at other expos so you can build more hatches. Actually, thinking further, I really like the idea, as it provides a huge number of strategic possiblities and counters for all mus, you'd just have to give the zerg a bit less than the units worth, not 10%, and you'd have to make it proportional to hp/energy left for the unit or take time, so as they can't click "c" or somthing to sell the units for full value right before they die, or use a queens abilities then sell it when it has no energy.
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What I like about this is it encourages you to be on the attack against zerg. If you turtle and do not downsize his early units he will convert them into tier three units once hive comes up.
Also makes massing up a lot of units for a specific attack less risky. I could morph 20 banelings and if my backdoor nydus fails, it isn't a total loss. This would encourage creating units that are designed for specific types of harassment rather than general fighting units because the resources can be reclaimed in a timely manner if the units do not prove useful.
Also there is the possibility of a drop coming across a bunch of units that are in the process of being recycled drastically altering the course of the game.
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To be honest, the greatest use I see Zerg players getting out of this is recycling 20+ drones for a huge, immediate mineral gain (1000+ minerals) coupled with freeing up a lot of supply, in order to make a huge army for an all-in timing attack.
I don't think the Zerg race needs more encouragement to do all-in attacks in the early game.
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Unless zerg economics have drastically changed, there won't be any huge all in attacks because of this. Larvae are one of the most important resources for zerg, and quite hard to manage, too. If you have that many excess larvae early on, something is wrong.
So this ability would shift zerg resource management even more towards larvae, which is not a bad thing imo.
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If you read the adjustments I made, you'll see that the Zerg can't do this until they research the ability at a Lair. That forces it to be mid-game.
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On July 30 2009 01:21 spinesheath wrote: Unless zerg economics have drastically changed, there won't be any huge all in attacks because of this. Larvae are one of the most important resources for zerg, and quite hard to manage, too. If you have that many excess larvae early on, something is wrong.
So this ability would shift zerg resource management even more towards larvae, which is not a bad thing imo. But zerg economics have drastically changed. You can store a truckload of larvae in a hatchery now thanks to the Queen's Spawn Larva ability.
On July 30 2009 01:27 n00bonicPlague wrote: If you read the adjustments I made, you'll see that the Zerg can't do this until they research the ability at a Lair. That forces it to be mid-game. Fair enough. As long as you can recycle drones, though, I still see this ability being used primarily as part of a BO to sacrifice your economy in exchange for a huge timing attack, even if you need Lair to do it.
If it required Hive Tech then I see this as being less of a problem.
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Wait, it costs 100 resources and yet you get 100% return? I see some nonsense going on here...
I don't think that losing resources in a trade is going to help Zerg at all. We need stronger units placed in the right tiers. Actually, it'd be cool if they could just give Zerg a new unit altogether. C'mon Blizzard, you know you want to.
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You wouldn't get 1000 resources for 20 drones. You would get something like 850 -- and that's only if they're all at full health.
Although, if needed, I wouldn't have a problem with moving it up to hive tech.
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