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On February 26 2010 02:42 MYM.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:34 theqat wrote:On February 26 2010 02:32 MYM.Testie wrote: What they need to work on is bnet 2.0 and the terrible lag it has. Seriously, just steal HoN's server interface. It's a lot better than bnet 2.0.
There's been times where I'm thinking, "wow I could do some really cool shit with my units" and then bnet 2.0 gets up in my face and says "rofl j/k here's some delay on every single action you take noob". It makes you feel like you're watching your game rather than being right in there playing it, in a sense. Interesting. Day[9] was praising the netcode on his daily show the other night and I haven't heard this complaint from anywhere else Day[9] should go play a game of HoN and then go back to SC on bnet 2.0. In comparison, there is a massive delay that makes the user have to get used to the delay to perform micro as they want it. And it still won't be as they want it.
I play a lot of HON--granted, nowhere near as much as you--and I find the responsiveness of SC2 pretty good :shrug: I think calling the difference in delay "massive" is probably exaggerating a great deal.
Of course there could be problems with server distance, since there probably aren't widespread servers to get the best possible midpoint between all players yet. So maybe I'm just lucky based on my location
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Whenever something in your base is being attacked, they tell you precisely what it is. For example, if the probes are getting attacked, they say "Your Probes are under attack" instead of just "Your base is under attack." This greatly eliminates the element of surprise. Where as in the past when ever your base was all of a sudden being attacked by a cloak unit, triggering a panic as you frantically looked around to see what and where it was attacking, now you instantly know what's up.
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Thats sad to hear,I guess battle.net really must have fucked up the p2p system since Blizzcon where people said it was as responsive as SC1
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On February 26 2010 02:35 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. Still wondering how you can possibly argue with me about staracraft when you don't play the game lol logically you have no platform with which to argue from. you have zero experience and zero data to back up your claims. You just talk too much. Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:12 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 02:07 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 02:02 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 01:10 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote: [quote]
u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too.
u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on
perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. I stopped reading here. and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it.
ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby
fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game. atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc.
it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw.
what happens is a shift of the skills required.
u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn. too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest.
players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why?
because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about.
its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change. and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again.
when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve. GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units???
if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me
ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly
Not wasting me time. u are so proving on of my points... its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time. but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious. the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. on the other hand i have nearly 10 years of experience in playing RTS games competetive, be it sc (as mentioned not much), wc3, dow1/2, c&n series, btfm the list goes on. u sir are just a sad because u judge people without knowing them. i don't know u too, but did i ignore ur posts or opinion? no, i read them and said i think u are wrong. perhaps the way i did so wasn't the nicest but sure its better then what u are doing. so get off ur horse. so you have zero sc experience and you admit it. Also no other rts does not make you an expert. Sc is not an rts. It is the best. It is art. It has a pro league for 10 plus years. Nothing else compares. i don't have zero sc experience. also playing only sc doesnt make u an expert. and i am curious on what level u play starcraft. so care to tell me? I am a C+/C level zerg on Icup. My record currently is C at 30-12 on the ladder. I have been playing starcarft for 12 years, competitive for 2. and yes, playing SC makes me far more knowledgeable than you when it comes to discussing SC1 and SC2 How does that not compute?
it does therefor not compute, because u:
a) only play competetive for 2 years b) are only C+/C c) u actually think ur better/more knowledgeable than u are
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On February 26 2010 00:22 szm wrote: Smart AI makes manual surrounds, flanking and pre battle positioning obsolete. How can anyone even call that a feature or improvement? No it doesn't.
Positioning and flanking is huge still (but I wish high ground positioning got an accuracy bonus)
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On February 26 2010 02:46 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:35 Misrah wrote:the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. Still wondering how you can possibly argue with me about staracraft when you don't play the game lol logically you have no platform with which to argue from. you have zero experience and zero data to back up your claims. You just talk too much. On February 26 2010 02:12 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 02:07 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 02:02 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 01:10 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote: [quote]
Not wasting me time. u are so proving on of my points... its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time. but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious. the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. on the other hand i have nearly 10 years of experience in playing RTS games competetive, be it sc (as mentioned not much), wc3, dow1/2, c&n series, btfm the list goes on. u sir are just a sad because u judge people without knowing them. i don't know u too, but did i ignore ur posts or opinion? no, i read them and said i think u are wrong. perhaps the way i did so wasn't the nicest but sure its better then what u are doing. so get off ur horse. so you have zero sc experience and you admit it. Also no other rts does not make you an expert. Sc is not an rts. It is the best. It is art. It has a pro league for 10 plus years. Nothing else compares. i don't have zero sc experience. also playing only sc doesnt make u an expert. and i am curious on what level u play starcraft. so care to tell me? I am a C+/C level zerg on Icup. My record currently is C at 30-12 on the ladder. I have been playing starcarft for 12 years, competitive for 2. and yes, playing SC makes me far more knowledgeable than you when it comes to discussing SC1 and SC2 How does that not compute? it does therefor not compute, because u: a) only play competetive for 2 years b) are only C+/C c) u actually think ur better/more knowledgeable than u are
Fucking hell, just give up. You already said you don't play SC much, let alone competitively. Of course he'd know more than you about the game. Also C+ is a pretty high level, you don't need to be Jaedong to comment on the game.
Honestly Misrah I think you're just getting trolled right now
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On February 26 2010 01:17 MannerMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:15 BlackYoshi wrote: However, from watching, I really think they need to add back in the 30% accuracy loss from shooting up hill. They say needing site is enough disadvantage, but when all you have to do is get 1-2 units up a ramp or just have a flying unit hover over it, it really negates any advantage from holding uphill terrain (which makes no sense in a military context) Oh man, a military inaccuracy in starcraft? Alert blizzard, this was supposed to be the most realistic war game ever. It was in Brood War and worked great; it made taking the high ground a great idea.
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On February 26 2010 02:53 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:46 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 02:35 Misrah wrote:the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. Still wondering how you can possibly argue with me about staracraft when you don't play the game lol logically you have no platform with which to argue from. you have zero experience and zero data to back up your claims. You just talk too much. On February 26 2010 02:12 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 02:07 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 02:02 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 01:10 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote: [quote]
u are so proving on of my points...
its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time.
but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting" It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious. the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. on the other hand i have nearly 10 years of experience in playing RTS games competetive, be it sc (as mentioned not much), wc3, dow1/2, c&n series, btfm the list goes on. u sir are just a sad because u judge people without knowing them. i don't know u too, but did i ignore ur posts or opinion? no, i read them and said i think u are wrong. perhaps the way i did so wasn't the nicest but sure its better then what u are doing. so get off ur horse. so you have zero sc experience and you admit it. Also no other rts does not make you an expert. Sc is not an rts. It is the best. It is art. It has a pro league for 10 plus years. Nothing else compares. i don't have zero sc experience. also playing only sc doesnt make u an expert. and i am curious on what level u play starcraft. so care to tell me? I am a C+/C level zerg on Icup. My record currently is C at 30-12 on the ladder. I have been playing starcarft for 12 years, competitive for 2. and yes, playing SC makes me far more knowledgeable than you when it comes to discussing SC1 and SC2 How does that not compute? it does therefor not compute, because u: a) only play competetive for 2 years b) are only C+/C c) u actually think ur better/more knowledgeable than u are Fucking hell, just give up. You already said you don't play SC much, let alone competitively. Of course he'd know more than you about the game. Also C+ is a pretty high level, you don't need to be Jaedong to comment on the game. Honestly Misrah I think you're just getting trolled right now
when exactly did i say i know more about sc:bw than he does?
seriously are u his 2nd account or what?
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On February 26 2010 01:24 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:17 BlackYoshi wrote:On February 25 2010 23:36 SubtleArt wrote:On February 25 2010 22:45 viletomato wrote: I see it as simply...
Easier Gameplay (Auto surround) ---> Caters to casual gamer 'Harder' Gameplay (No Auto surround) ---> Caters to the hardcore crowd
Casual gamer numbers > Hardcore gamer numbers So here is the contradiction that Blizzard faces... how can you cater to the hardcore and casual at the same time? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. UNLESS there is an option in game to switch autosurround on and off. But then you have a non-unified game and you have a divided community. I don't think that is something that Blizzard will implement.
At this time many people will say, since Blizzard wants to cater to the majority and make more $$ for the business they will cater to the casual gamer. To this I respond:
The popularity amongst hardcore gamers gives rise to the incentive that the casual gamers want to play the game and become hardcore. For example, some guy knowing nothing about sc sees jaedong on TV in korea and picks up the game because of the hardcore following. So I think catering to the Hardcore is very very important in attracting casual players to play the game. Think about how many noobs have watched pro korean players on youtube and picked up starcraft in the last 10 years. If there wasn't a pro following at all (based on crappy gameplay) you think any casual gamer would want to play the game past 2002ish? Heck no, it'll be forgotten just like all the other games that never stood the test of time.
So my thoughts are:
Catering to the Casual ---> Ensures an initial boom of players, Big bucks for the first 3-4 years and then a dying fanbase and $$ trails off. Catering to the Hardcore ---> Ensures the longevity of the game. Lets just assume initially not as many players will play comparing to catering to the casual, but will generate cash for blizz in form of TV and tournaments over the next 10 years. $$ comes in for a long amount of time.
I really think option 2 is the better choice.... no casual gamer is not going to play SC2 just because there is no autosurround... they don't follow it, they don't even know what it is.
I'm sure blizzard has thought about all these things, and have stuck with their decision.
BW falls into the harcore category and last time I checked its probably the most successful RTS ever made. S Of course you can cater to both hardcore and casual. You have to favor one slightly, but theres no reason that the 2 extremes are the only option. For example: Pathfinding improvement :Obviously ok, even for hardcore fans Multiple unit selection: fine, more appeasement for casual people but still viable. Auto surround: Now its ridiculous. Theres no reason casual gamers will stray away from the game because they don't have an AI doing all the micro themselves. Take improved battle AI away and you've appeased both sides. Easier to manage units, but microing skill is still there. One of the suggestions offered by a lot of ppl (and even some on teamliquid) was improve the macro mechanic even more by being able to press a button like alt and then a hotkey for a unit and have all gateways produce that unit. Does this not seem ridiculous? If you appease the casual crowd this much then the game just became your standard above average RTS. Nothing special, and certainly nothing that will attract pro gaming. I swear if they add this feature I'm never gonna play SC2 X_X. The point is Blizzard needs to find some middle ground because right now everythings just way too easy. I think the stance blizzard chooses needs to cater more to the hardcore gaming side because this is the sequel to SC1...you still need to remain true to its roots. Also is the server still not working for any1 else??? Brood War is the hardcore? Most of the people who still play BW are playing Big Game Hunter games, UMS, and other "casual" games. The ICCUP crowd is very small. what about this crowd? The people who watch Starcraft games are probably not hardcore players, and are not "PRO COMPETITIVE" gods. They watch because its entertaining to watch, just like any other sport
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On February 26 2010 01:36 Misrah wrote: I will say it again ITT: new people to Starcraft jumping on to a competitve Starcraft site and trying to tell me that they have great ideas about how starcrAft should play. Yep all the probes drones and scvs reAding this really know where me / most of the tl community is coming from when we talk about micro macro and mechanical skill.
Most of you have no idea what you are talking about. Forming baseless opinions about what sc1 is like when you don't competitevly play it is a joke. What's worse is these same people are then comparing sc2 to sc1. How can you try and tell me with a straight face that sc2 is better if you have never played sc1 at a competative level? He'll most of you don't even have the beta.
Most of the people disagreeing with nazgul and the more senior tl membors are simply casual gamers that jump from one shiny new game to another. Pro tip- stop talking about things you do not understand. So what is Chill then?
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I predicted this two years ago. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=68954 Sad more people couldn't understand this problem back then. Now it's way to late to change.
This game has way to many flaws to fix at this point. Dustin Browder has no idea what made Sc1 great and neither do anyone else at Blizzard. They got lucky with Sc1 and are now cashing in on the reputation Sc1 gave them. Sc2 will be another War3. Alot of people will play it beacuse it's new and there is nothing else to play.
Maybe they should have spent all the time they wasted on AI and GUI improvments on some creative units instead. Waaaay to many generic boring c&c style units in Sc2.
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On February 26 2010 02:45 Senx wrote: Thats sad to hear,I guess battle.net really must have fucked up the p2p system since Blizzcon where people said it was as responsive as SC1
They were on LAN.
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On February 26 2010 01:57 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. they can not distance themselves when a game is so easy to play. I mean MBS and automine coupled with improved ai means that everyone will be playing perfect Starcraft with like 150apm lol Good; its a strategy game, the defining thing should be tactics and strategy, not how much you can practice (which pushed out the old Korean pros) and burns out all the current pros. They practice 8-12 hours a day, and many retire in the mid 20s. Its just not good for the "strategy". I think most Koreans will agree that Starcraft was more exciting in the days of Oov, Nal Ra, Boxer, and such when the game was more dynamic, less set-in stone, and unorthodox strategies could work on surprise factor alone, and the television ratings and crowds back that up.
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On February 26 2010 02:58 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:53 SubtleArt wrote:On February 26 2010 02:46 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 02:35 Misrah wrote:the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. Still wondering how you can possibly argue with me about staracraft when you don't play the game lol logically you have no platform with which to argue from. you have zero experience and zero data to back up your claims. You just talk too much. On February 26 2010 02:12 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 02:07 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 02:02 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 01:10 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote: [quote]
It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points. yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue. u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time. Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious. the thing is ur jumping to conlusions. u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years. on the other hand i have nearly 10 years of experience in playing RTS games competetive, be it sc (as mentioned not much), wc3, dow1/2, c&n series, btfm the list goes on. u sir are just a sad because u judge people without knowing them. i don't know u too, but did i ignore ur posts or opinion? no, i read them and said i think u are wrong. perhaps the way i did so wasn't the nicest but sure its better then what u are doing. so get off ur horse. so you have zero sc experience and you admit it. Also no other rts does not make you an expert. Sc is not an rts. It is the best. It is art. It has a pro league for 10 plus years. Nothing else compares. i don't have zero sc experience. also playing only sc doesnt make u an expert. and i am curious on what level u play starcraft. so care to tell me? I am a C+/C level zerg on Icup. My record currently is C at 30-12 on the ladder. I have been playing starcarft for 12 years, competitive for 2. and yes, playing SC makes me far more knowledgeable than you when it comes to discussing SC1 and SC2 How does that not compute? it does therefor not compute, because u: a) only play competetive for 2 years b) are only C+/C c) u actually think ur better/more knowledgeable than u are Fucking hell, just give up. You already said you don't play SC much, let alone competitively. Of course he'd know more than you about the game. Also C+ is a pretty high level, you don't need to be Jaedong to comment on the game. Honestly Misrah I think you're just getting trolled right now when exactly did i say i know more about sc:bw than he does? seriously are u his 2nd account or what?
ur implying it but again, im not gonna feed the troll
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On February 26 2010 02:58 BlackYoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:24 mdb wrote:On February 26 2010 01:17 BlackYoshi wrote:On February 25 2010 23:36 SubtleArt wrote:On February 25 2010 22:45 viletomato wrote: I see it as simply...
Easier Gameplay (Auto surround) ---> Caters to casual gamer 'Harder' Gameplay (No Auto surround) ---> Caters to the hardcore crowd
Casual gamer numbers > Hardcore gamer numbers So here is the contradiction that Blizzard faces... how can you cater to the hardcore and casual at the same time? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. UNLESS there is an option in game to switch autosurround on and off. But then you have a non-unified game and you have a divided community. I don't think that is something that Blizzard will implement.
At this time many people will say, since Blizzard wants to cater to the majority and make more $$ for the business they will cater to the casual gamer. To this I respond:
The popularity amongst hardcore gamers gives rise to the incentive that the casual gamers want to play the game and become hardcore. For example, some guy knowing nothing about sc sees jaedong on TV in korea and picks up the game because of the hardcore following. So I think catering to the Hardcore is very very important in attracting casual players to play the game. Think about how many noobs have watched pro korean players on youtube and picked up starcraft in the last 10 years. If there wasn't a pro following at all (based on crappy gameplay) you think any casual gamer would want to play the game past 2002ish? Heck no, it'll be forgotten just like all the other games that never stood the test of time.
So my thoughts are:
Catering to the Casual ---> Ensures an initial boom of players, Big bucks for the first 3-4 years and then a dying fanbase and $$ trails off. Catering to the Hardcore ---> Ensures the longevity of the game. Lets just assume initially not as many players will play comparing to catering to the casual, but will generate cash for blizz in form of TV and tournaments over the next 10 years. $$ comes in for a long amount of time.
I really think option 2 is the better choice.... no casual gamer is not going to play SC2 just because there is no autosurround... they don't follow it, they don't even know what it is.
I'm sure blizzard has thought about all these things, and have stuck with their decision.
BW falls into the harcore category and last time I checked its probably the most successful RTS ever made. S Of course you can cater to both hardcore and casual. You have to favor one slightly, but theres no reason that the 2 extremes are the only option. For example: Pathfinding improvement :Obviously ok, even for hardcore fans Multiple unit selection: fine, more appeasement for casual people but still viable. Auto surround: Now its ridiculous. Theres no reason casual gamers will stray away from the game because they don't have an AI doing all the micro themselves. Take improved battle AI away and you've appeased both sides. Easier to manage units, but microing skill is still there. One of the suggestions offered by a lot of ppl (and even some on teamliquid) was improve the macro mechanic even more by being able to press a button like alt and then a hotkey for a unit and have all gateways produce that unit. Does this not seem ridiculous? If you appease the casual crowd this much then the game just became your standard above average RTS. Nothing special, and certainly nothing that will attract pro gaming. I swear if they add this feature I'm never gonna play SC2 X_X. The point is Blizzard needs to find some middle ground because right now everythings just way too easy. I think the stance blizzard chooses needs to cater more to the hardcore gaming side because this is the sequel to SC1...you still need to remain true to its roots. Also is the server still not working for any1 else??? Brood War is the hardcore? Most of the people who still play BW are playing Big Game Hunter games, UMS, and other "casual" games. The ICCUP crowd is very small. what about this crowd? The people who watch Starcraft games are probably not hardcore players, and are not "PRO COMPETITIVE" gods. They watch because its entertaining to watch, just like any other sport
And in just about any other sport that is really popular among spectators it is damn hard to achieve pro level. If it isn't hard, it doesn't seem to be so much fun to watch.
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On February 26 2010 03:02 BlackYoshi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:57 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. they can not distance themselves when a game is so easy to play. I mean MBS and automine coupled with improved ai means that everyone will be playing perfect Starcraft with like 150apm lol Good; its a strategy game, the defining thing should be tactics and strategy, not how much you can practice (which pushed out the old Korean pros) and burns out all the current pros. They practice 8-12 hours a day, and many retire in the mid 20s. Its just not good for the "strategy". I think most Koreans will agree that Starcraft was more exciting in the days of Oov, Nal Ra, Boxer, and such when the game was more dynamic, less set-in stone, and unorthodox strategies could work on surprise factor alone, and the television ratings and crowds back that up.
Macro doesn't limit strategy. Harder macro just makes it harder to achieve both, which is where multitask and practice come in
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Haven't read the whole topic through so i'm sorry if this has been answered already, but are the interviews going to be available again anytime soon?
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What a junk thread full of low post count users bickering with each other ... SC2 has brought a lot of useless players into the TL community =(. Btw I agree with Naz, all the improvements are nice but if there is not enough cool/interesting micro to differentiate a player from a better player, then it becomes boring and not something I'd like to watch at the pro level.
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i am not useless ^^
but well right ^^ sc2 newcomers (no sc before) should be tagged so we see them and dont take their words for real ^^
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On February 26 2010 03:07 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:02 BlackYoshi wrote:On February 26 2010 01:57 Misrah wrote:On February 26 2010 01:46 Bane_ wrote:On February 26 2010 01:41 SubtleArt wrote:Much improved AI is the complaint about micro, yes. Also no1s saying the game sucks, just that the improvements make it too easy to micro, (and thus do not deem SC an esport), and ultimately too easy to have the same competitive atmosphere as BW How do we know this already though (the beta has been out a week...)? It may well be easier to play at a reasonably competitive level but there are still going to be ways for the top players to distance themselves from the crowd. they can not distance themselves when a game is so easy to play. I mean MBS and automine coupled with improved ai means that everyone will be playing perfect Starcraft with like 150apm lol Good; its a strategy game, the defining thing should be tactics and strategy, not how much you can practice (which pushed out the old Korean pros) and burns out all the current pros. They practice 8-12 hours a day, and many retire in the mid 20s. Its just not good for the "strategy". I think most Koreans will agree that Starcraft was more exciting in the days of Oov, Nal Ra, Boxer, and such when the game was more dynamic, less set-in stone, and unorthodox strategies could work on surprise factor alone, and the television ratings and crowds back that up. Macro doesn't limit strategy. Harder macro just makes it harder to achieve both, which is where multitask and practice come in
The ability to macro well made strategy less important. Oov is enough of an example where macro was simply became a deciding factor. Just went on from there to where its now almost completely extinct to see any kind of strategic play from any progamer, simply beacuse the core gameplay itself does not support creative play.
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