Saying lings just die instantly when sent with roaches or hydras.. Dont send them in retardedly.
[SC2B] Zerg: The Evolution (or Devolution) - Page 11
Forum Index > News |
DreamShake
Peru120 Posts
Saying lings just die instantly when sent with roaches or hydras.. Dont send them in retardedly. | ||
nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
2. In a typical good and long TvZ I see zergling, banelings, roaches, hydras, mutalisks, infestors, and in lategame blords and ultralisks. Midgame army composition includes doubling, roaches, and hydras with mutalisks (from harassment joining main army). There's nothing really wrong with diversity as I've faced zergs in TvZ 3. The ultralisk vs 798 zlings is a joke -. - the ultra has full ups I believe, while the zergling only had ability upgrades. It was 3-3 vs 0-0, and it looks like the ultra had armor upgrade as well (I can't tell clearly from the resolution). What the heck do you expect when you have such a high armored endtier unit with splash damage going against 0-0 zergling -. - This just goes to show how important armor upgrade is against many small damages which should be common sense 4. From my many TvZs, a significant tank army is only a "critical mass" if the terran army has good positioning. If the T gets surrounded from ~160 degrees, the incoming mass will overwhelm a terran ball even with a tank-heavy composition 5. @ Hive problem. Isn't the idea of mass producing weaker units align with the idea of the zerg? Also, this isn't only the problem with zerg. Terran really doesn't get battlecruisers against competent opponents. Carriers are definitely not as strong with corrupters and vikings. Archons are considerably weaker now. Mothership is kinda of a joke and I have not seen it in play in most of my TvPs 6. @ What went right It seems to me that you're praising everything that's strong about the zerg (banelings, creep mechanics, improved nydus) but you're complaining about the strong things you wish the zerg had in SC2 from SC1 WHILE KEEPING its strengths in SC2 (you want defilers, as strong cracklings, lurkers, etc.) All I have to say is, if I wanted vultures and spider mines, emp taking out 100% shield and 100% energy, goliaths, medics, higher supply health, lockdown, WHILE KEEPING hellions, vikings, and medivacs, what would you say? | ||
Wintermute
United States427 Posts
On April 22 2010 06:17 Archerofaiur wrote: Larva are a resource. Minerals are a resource. Spawn Larva gives you more of a resource. Proton Charge gives you more of a resource. At some point in time you then choose how to spend that resource. You do not make the decision of what to spend your resource on when casting Proton Charge/ Spawn Larva. Now if you had to choose what unit to make from that larva as your casting (like Chronoboost does now) than Spawn Larva would have decision making. Do you see the difference? Do you think that spawn larva might be more interesting if: 1) Energy cost remained the same 2) 3 larva instead of 4 3) 20 seconds to spawn vs 40 seconds. The ability would be less efficient in terms of raw throughput, but there would be some reason to occasionally let energy pool rather than spending it right away, and larva would be created more responsively. Rather than being a mechanic where there is an absolute best way to use it (exactly every 40 seconds, like a robot) it would encourage at least a little bit of judgement and not punish players so harshly for not being the aforementioned robot. Edit: Now that I think about it, this would probably just encourage zerg to make 2 queens per hatch instead of 1. | ||
Synwave
United States2803 Posts
On April 22 2010 06:28 Saracen wrote: I personally think it would be interesting if roaches were melee units and had no attack lag when unburrowing. And maybe they can do a bit of radial splash damage when they pop out of the ground... EDIT: + Show Spoiler + On April 21 2010 12:53 Half wrote: I totally agree with your analysis on the zergling problem, heh, I was actually making a thread about it and was looking for replays that illustrated it very well -_-. /shoehorns what I wrote into this thread? Zerglings in SC2. 1)Units clump more making surround less viable while at the same time making it easier (Lowers skill cap + Lowers skill scaling...lolwut...) 2)Zergling dps nerfed by ~20% due to easier early game surround (While late game surround becomes much less viable) 3)Zergling are now are obsolete meatsheilds due to the existence of the statistically superior roach 4)Zerglings are now obsolete as efficient dps due to the existence of the buffed hydralisks, who while doing much less dps per cost, scale effectively into lategame with higher dps per space (aka will be able to fit more in in a concave to attack) and ranged attack (same as prior+more versatile). 5)Need to tech to t2 for antiair. 6)Zerg now have effective anti-building units in the form of the hydralisk, which will actually outdps zerglings after getting enough hydralisks (As no more lings will be able to fit in) 7) 8)npd narco has recently coordinated a massive drug bust on cocaine usage by zerglings. (~25% crackling dps nerf) -Why this is bad- As a result, zergling no longer fulfill their iconic roles as damage dealer with darkswarm and ultralisks, nor their iconic usage as disposable meat for the zerg army. Instead, they've been relegated to early game defenders and timing pushers, and lategame harrassers at best. The lack of zerglings in the zerg army have removed the dynamic control factors of having to micromanage unit groups with wildly different movement patterns (Mutalisks, lings, lurkers), and instead, unit group that are able to succinctly coalesce into this big blob of shit (Hydraroach) I would suggest a massive buff on crack for lings, and a slight nerf to speed. Crack>Speed. :o --------- In addition: The zerg suffer so much from overlap right now. Ultralisks overlap with roaches (as tanks) and broodlords (as t3 "ultimate" units). Zerglings can't find a place as damage dealers because of the predominance of hydralisks and the relative effectiveness of roaches (which food wise, are more effective at doing damage then zerglings once you get enough). Corruptors are finding a hard time doing anything considering the versatility of the mutalisk and the lack of a specialzied role. In fact, the corruptor probably has the single most boring, mundane role in the game, and is only used to counter mass collosus. This is incredibly strange because the zerg have the least units. Logically, they should have an easier time ensuring they all see play, but due to sloppy design and the inability to find a cohesive role for the roach, they see the least. The biggest issue is Hydralisk/Roach, which are simultaneously too different to conflict with each other, yet at the same time, too alike to instigate inventive playstyles. A hydraroach army does not play differently then a mass roach army does. Both simply try and from good concaves and positions, and autoattack (In large numbers). The roach desperate needs to be scrapped or returned back to its original role, and the role of tank given to the ultra while the hydras power raw power as dps unit needs to be given back to the zergling. The broodlord on the other hand needs to remain extremely powerful, but needs major vulnerabilities such as low HP which it currently does not possess. I feel like the treatment (lower dps) given the speedlings (A unit intended to dps and be meat) would be better served on the on the mutalisk, which instead receives better stacking abilities. The viking gets more of its damage shifted to +armored (just a bit) to compensate. After these changes, mutalisks should be made to effectively stack like they did in bw. Theirs no reason not to reward this kind of skill heavy, engaging, entertaining (both to spectators and to players) play, one which requires heavy micro. The mechanics should be changed however, the current situation requires constant clicking at the mutas feet. Keeping this, but increasing the amount of time until the units drift apart would be an effective solution and maintains engagement despite multi-select. At the same time, it wouldn't just be an -apm requirement. Spamclicking at the units feet drastically alters the way they move and behave, and requires a different kind of movement pattern on behalf of the player. Currently it does not provide enough gain, by providing more incentives, it doesn't just result in more skilled, yet objectively mindless play, it also results in creative usage of a unit as spamclicking air units requires you to move and position them in certain ways (For instance, you need to to make a judgement call between movement speed and how bunched your mutas are. spam clicking reduced the speed you can move them. It also rewards you if you make a bunch of small micro movements, instead of making longer movements across large areas, and thus, alters your playstyle and requires critical thinking on a situation by situation ) I'm afraid blizzard isn't taking these issues at face value though. I really wished they would rework several fundamental flaws in racial design, particularly in zerg, though I fear that they won't. I don't think its (entirely) out of finance/higher level decisions to mandate a june shipping date, I think a lot of the developers are just too fixated and attached to the things they made. Thats certainly understandable, but some things just aren't working. I remember reading that Dustin really has this personal attachment to the Roach. I do too actually, in its original incarnation. However, it no longer resembles the roach it was originally created as. Currently, some aspects of zerg play are simply not entertaining or engaging at all, like hydraroach. Quoting this because it looks like a lot of effort went into this post and it got lost way too easily. Thanks for relinking that, I missed it last night-this morning at work. Very nice explanation that fills in what your OP didn't. Especially regarding the broodlord/ultralisk overlap that just ticks me off. I want to ultra but unless my opponent is really stupid or the game is already over, there is no reason for me to not broodlord instead. Makes me a sad zerg ,,>.<,, | ||
yxrkt
United States2 Posts
| ||
Synwave
United States2803 Posts
| ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 22 2010 06:44 Wintermute wrote: Do you think that spawn larva might be more interesting if: 1) Energy cost remained the same 2) 3 larva instead of 4 3) 20 seconds to spawn vs 40 seconds. The ability would be less efficient in terms of raw throughput, but there would be some reason to occasionally let energy pool rather than spending it right away, and larva would be created more responsively. Rather than being a mechanic where there is an absolute best way to use it (exactly every 40 seconds, like a robot) it would encourage at least a little bit of judgement and not punish players so harshly for not being the aforementioned robot. Edit: Now that I think about it, this would probably just encourage zerg to make 2 queens per hatch instead of 1. This is a complex problem. You have to look at the three different parts of the problem Energy Tension: requires Queen energy be a limited resource Temporal Decisionmaking: requires saving energy to have an advantage at least in some situations Spacial Decisionmaking: requires heterogenity in potential casting subjects | ||
Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
| ||
-orb-
United States5770 Posts
1: Friendly Fire damage 2: If you target fire a baneling and kill it it should die without doing damage. Aka the way spider mines were in brood war. The way it is now that you can just haphazardly keep banelings randomly in your army with no micro and if they get close to your enemies they will still do damage if target fired is silly imo. | ||
Synwave
United States2803 Posts
On April 22 2010 07:14 -orb- wrote: You say the baneling is what they did right, and in many ways I agree, but I have to point out that I feel two changes should really happen for the baneling: 1: Friendly Fire damage 2: If you target fire a baneling and kill it it should die without doing damage. Aka the way spider mines were in brood war. The way it is now that you can just haphazardly keep banelings randomly in your army with no micro and if they get close to your enemies they will still do damage if target fired is silly imo. But alien acid doesnt hurt the aliens lol Seems if they evolutionized (fun word) the baneling their carapace would be immune to it. This is totally gameplay aside. | ||
eternalgamer
Canada11 Posts
By the sounds of it I'm not liking the zergling nerfs. | ||
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 22 2010 07:14 -orb- wrote: You say the baneling is what they did right, and in many ways I agree, but I have to point out that I feel two changes should really happen for the baneling: 1: Friendly Fire damage 2: If you target fire a baneling and kill it it should die without doing damage. Aka the way spider mines were in brood war. The way it is now that you can just haphazardly keep banelings randomly in your army with no micro and if they get close to your enemies they will still do damage if target fired is silly imo. Not quite sure I agree with 1. I mean, scarabs in SC1 didn't do friendly fire damage. Also, if they did friendly fire damage it would be very problematic in that one baneling would kill all the other ones :\ 2. should be implemented though. It really is kinda stupid when they do damage despite getting sniped. | ||
scAre
Estonia28 Posts
And i agree that zerg is broken. Units dont have that great SYMBIOTIC relation to one another anymore that was in bw. This makes play monotonic and dull. Playing with balance issues to make some other units more playable dont cut it, because the symbiosis isnt there. So if some unit is buffed to be more playable it will still be monotonic and dull. I think Iundestand why Blizzard has come to this. Their policy was to make "cool units", so the thinkers gave them those "cool units", but thay focused too heavily making units cool and not thinking too much about completeness of race as a whole. As a consequense units are just too interoperable. To fix this huge changes must be made, cosmetic fixes will not work SYMBIOSIS, brothers What i like about Zerg: - The Queen (especially spawn larvae) - creep (unit behavior on creep, overlord ability, tumor) - nydus | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 22 2010 07:49 scAre wrote: I think Iundestand why Blizzard has come to this. Their policy was to make "cool units", so the thinkers gave them those "cool units", but thay focused too heavily making units cool and not thinking too much about completeness of race as a whole. This. | ||
Mohdoo
United States15082 Posts
| ||
Wintermute
United States427 Posts
On April 22 2010 07:37 eternalgamer wrote: Wish I had a beta key to play SC2 to see the differences for myself By the sounds of it I'm not liking the zergling nerfs. Imagine a SCBW zergling. Imagine that it attacks about 20% slower. That's the SC2 zergling. Now imagine that when you get to tier 3, you can spend 200/200 to make your zerglings attack as quickly as the T1 lings in SCBW, with nothing that even approaches the effectiveness of the T3 upgrade in SCBW. However, pathfinding is much better (still has some gaping flaws) and lings travel in an actual pack instead of in single file. They auto surround, although they can still get confused by a combination of targets, since they'll all try to surround certain targets while ignoring others, Basically, zerglings are a low skill/low reward unit. They give you a lot of bulk, and in great enough numbers they'll eventually kill anything, but no one is afraid of them. Of all the things that need to be changed about zerg, lings are probably the lowest priority IMO. No, they're not scary like they were in SCBW, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. They're very flavorful and still some what effective as fodder in the late game when you have a lot of larva and minerals, and not enough gas. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 22 2010 08:11 Mohdoo wrote: It wouldn't surprise me if this thread ended up pushing back the currently anticated patch. Dustin Browder: The biggest one will be the we feel like we overnerfed a bit on the Marauder...we're going to reduce the cost and build time on that upgrade. | ||
AtTheFuneral
United States137 Posts
| ||
Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
Yup, when I read that article about how they made the units I was so disappointed in them. They picked the worst approach possible. They shouldnt design units, they should design races. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
Maybe, but I feel they failed hard at even making cool units. They made lings and mutas less cool, the roach is boring as hell and the corrupter is less cool than even the devourer ever was. | ||
| ||