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TvP can be very frustrating as the variety of toss builds seems to always throw me off. The 4 gateway push, the immortal timing push, the ever so dreadful void rays, the phoenixs, the combination of void rays and phoenixs, the 2 gate robo, the 4 gate forge fast upgrade build.... you get the point.
However, after watching a Strelok replay yesterday I saw a brilliant combo of terran units that seems to work agaisnt all of the builds toss can throw at me as listed above. I have made a few modifications however, as Streloks game went fast BC and no upgrades which were kind of situational as TLO went Void rays and a mothership.
So lets get onto the build.....
THOR IS READY!!
The build starts off with a traditional wall off as your gona need it agaisnt any early aggression, and now thanks to thors size reduction you can actully get the damn mech warrior outside with ease.
10-Depot 12-Rax 13-Refinary 100% Rax-OC 100-Gas Factory and 2nd Refinary 20-Reactor on Barracks. 100% Factory-Tech Lab and Armory
---------------------------------------------------------->>> Once your rax finishes you will be a little bit short of getting a Thor So I first build a hellion as a scout. Using my Hellion's speed the frist goal is to check for any proxy cheese the toss might be going for. I usually can run by w my hellion up their ramp(as youll see in the replays) and run aroudn their entire base to discover any hidden stargates or dark shrines. Even if the toss's army is sitting right their at the ramp for 100 minerals i can get a good check on his army count.
From here on start producing Thors Tanks and Rines, After your first thor/tank/siege mode upgrading gas has been spent the next 100 goes immediatly into a +1 armor upgrade. Why armor? Combined with SCV repair this really makes any Mech outlast the onslaught of protoss attacks, espcially agaisnt void rays armor will always help.
Using The Build
Your first Hellion is a big key to this build, this will give you access to the knowledge you need about the toss. two things will happen with your hellion you will either get stopped at the ramp or you will get in.
1) Stopped at the ramp- So you watch your hellion get blown to smitherines, but you should be able to get an ideal count of what units he has and how many. Throw a scan after this directly on their base to check their gateway count. You will be looking out for a few things here. 1) Gateway count if you see 4 gateways void ray is unlikely. If you see 2 gateways it always comes down to a few things, either a FE, Proxy Stargates, or DT's. If you only see two gates then immediatly throw down an engineering bay and a CC inside your wall. Turrett your base up and use your rine thors to hold any void ray or phoenix harass(Replay #1). Invest in another hellion to scout all of the expansions. If you see 4 gateway delay your engineering bay but add your CC still. Not having too buy a bunch of turrets and the bay will instead help you build more units to fight the 4 gate push.
2) Access Granted- Zoom. Micro your hellion and make sure you scout every inch of that damn base. Dont worry about probes, 1 hellion isnt gona do shit. For 100 minerals you get to see gateway count/any hidden buildings(if there in base) and their army count. So basically you spent 100 minerals for a temporary map hack, while at the same time you get to use your OC energy for mules.
3) Army composition- A big deal here is to notice the protoss's army composition. Is he Stalker heavy? Is he zealot heavy? How many Sentrys?
If hes stalker heavy then your definately set. If hes zealot heavy add a hellion or two to help break down their shields.
The Push
Using your tanks on cliffs and turrets(if he went air) You should be able to safely expand. Once armor finishes immediatly begin upgrading weapons as you keep massing up. Make sure you use your scans and a hellion or two to keep an eye on whats he doing. The push out varys in many differant situations. However, a general time of pushing out is when I hit 1-1 upgrades and have about 100+ supply. My push will usually have about 10-20 rines 4 thors and 6-8 tanks and 6 SCV's on auto repair. The SCVs really help a ton here with repair and if I push the T into his choke I will either bunker(if hes pure ground) or will turrret(if hes got void rays). This tends to put the nail in the coffin as youll see in replay 1.
Conclusion This build IMO is a safe opener agaisnt any P build. Using thors range with marine support voids will have a hard time harassing. At the same time the tanks and thors ground attack really helps keep your ground forces alive. This build does rely heavily on scouting, remeber this is a general guide, any build you play you must be willing to adapt and modify to your oppenants.
Replays
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ndzoyjzcyzj/Tank Rine Thor.SC2Replay
Game 1 Deals with the void ray Phoenix build toss throws at me, I simply turret up wait for my upgrades and push out.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ay0alltgyjm/Tank Rine Thor #2.SC2Replay
Game 2 deals with a 4 gateway build that the toss does.
XXXSmoke 1500 Plat.
Try the build before you criticize!!!
I AM HEAVY METAL.
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Hellions cost 100 minerals.
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looks interesting but to be honest i'm not willing to try it just because of temps with feedback that literally man-handle thors. ya people will say durrr ghosts!! but unfortunately any smart P players spreads out their temps so getting every single 1 is nearly impossible + the range on feedback is devastating as those sucker can always sneak up unnoticed.
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I can't download your replays. The page keeps timing out
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it's actually more beneficial if u transition the marines to helions =) which i'm sure u should be able to do. the helions absolutely rape zealots/sentries and the thors/tank really do the rest. don't forget that EMP. if he has void rays i would just run into his base cuz he wasted a lot of resources on those void rays.
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Yah, I've been doing a variant on this for a couple of days. I haven't lost with it.
I'm doing a very different transition to this, with marines instead of hellions to stop that fe into 5 sgate void ray, but I don't want to post it until I actually know it works t.t
+1 weapons is more important though imo, you're using hellions or marines as meat shields anyways and the armour doesnt make the biggest difference.
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I actually really like the idea of this build and will try it later...
On May 22 2010 04:20 HasHe201 wrote: temps with feedback that literally man-handle thors.
I don't disagree but at least at a lower level of play it would work well?
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Oops on the hellion cost T.T
Ima work on getting those replays fixed.
HT do not work unless there whole build is geared on HT. I push out quicker than you think. At the same time I only have about 4 thors. . . 2 of which will only be at full energy. Feedback will not be effective enough considering the gas cost and the loss of ground units for the HT's.
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Is this strictly a 1-base build or is there a built-in expansion timing that occurs before you push? I'm having trouble seeing how you're going to get the gas to support all those thors and tanks before taking an expansion.
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On May 22 2010 05:30 xDaunt wrote: Is this strictly a 1-base build or is there a built-in expansion timing that occurs before you push? I'm having trouble seeing how you're going to get the gas to support all those thors and tanks before taking an expansion.
1 base build into a mid game expansion , I was thinking the same thing while I was watching the strelok replay but he actully manages to pull it off. You actully end up having plenty of gas as long as you build your 2nd refinary right when you put down your factory. This way you have 2 gases running while your still waiting on your factory then when it finishes you have to get a tech lab and an armory so you end stock piling a good amount of gas to spend so when you get your fac down you can keep producing. Once you get two facs goin you should be just about getting your expand up then you cna easily produce from plenty of factorys.
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On May 22 2010 04:38 Piy wrote: Yah, I've been doing a variant on this for a couple of days. I haven't lost with it.
I'm doing a very different transition to this, with marines instead of hellions to stop that fe into 5 sgate void ray, but I don't want to post it until I actually know it works t.t
+1 weapons is more important though imo, you're using hellions or marines as meat shields anyways and the armour doesnt make the biggest difference.
On the upgrades it depends on their unit composition, +1 armor pays off so much versus void rays it really gives your thors that extra few seconds of life they need. It also helps agaisnt Zlots who wont do shit to a thor with 2 armor. Any stalker or immortal combo id say +1 attack to really melt that composition
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On May 22 2010 05:36 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 05:30 xDaunt wrote: Is this strictly a 1-base build or is there a built-in expansion timing that occurs before you push? I'm having trouble seeing how you're going to get the gas to support all those thors and tanks before taking an expansion. 1 base build into a mid game expansion , I was thinking the same thing while I was watching the strelok replay but he actully manages to pull it off. You actully end up having plenty of gas as long as you build your 2nd refinary right when you put down your factory. This way you have 2 gases running while your still waiting on your factory then when it finishes you have to get a tech lab and an armory so you end stock piling a good amount of gas to spend so when you get your fac down you can keep producing. Once you get two facs goin you should be just about getting your expand up then you cna easily produce from plenty of factorys.
Ah, so you do have an expansion running before the push goes out. The one concern that I would have if I were you would be a toss army that is heavy on chargelots and high templar. One or two storms will vaporize your marine meatshield, leaving your tanks and thors vulnerable to zealots and other gateway units. I can definitely see this build beating off void rays and four gate all-ins. I'm not sure how well you'd do in the mid-late game with only marines (and no marauders) protecting your tech units when the protoss is playing a more macro-oriented game as opposed to rushing you.
I'd love to see a terran try something like this against me just to see how it works.
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On May 22 2010 05:51 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 05:36 XXXSmOke wrote:On May 22 2010 05:30 xDaunt wrote: Is this strictly a 1-base build or is there a built-in expansion timing that occurs before you push? I'm having trouble seeing how you're going to get the gas to support all those thors and tanks before taking an expansion. 1 base build into a mid game expansion , I was thinking the same thing while I was watching the strelok replay but he actully manages to pull it off. You actully end up having plenty of gas as long as you build your 2nd refinary right when you put down your factory. This way you have 2 gases running while your still waiting on your factory then when it finishes you have to get a tech lab and an armory so you end stock piling a good amount of gas to spend so when you get your fac down you can keep producing. Once you get two facs goin you should be just about getting your expand up then you cna easily produce from plenty of factorys. Ah, so you do have an expansion running before the push goes out. The one concern that I would have if I were you would be a toss army that is heavy on chargelots and high templar. One or two storms will vaporize your marine meatshield, leaving your tanks and thors vulnerable to zealots and other gateway units. I can definitely see this build beating off void rays and four gate all-ins. I'm not sure how well you'd do in the mid-late game with only marines (and no marauders) protecting your tech units when the protoss is playing a more macro-oriented game as opposed to rushing you. I'd love to see a terran try something like this against me just to see how it works.
Im down to play ya after I get outa work in a few hours, If I see a Templar archives Ill switch my rax w a factory tech lab and get ghosts to help out agaisnt the HT. As I said earlier as well, I push out still decently early and only 2 of my 4 thors are gona have full energy. Storm would make an interesting fight. Id definately to have to adapt.
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the only thing I will criticize, is the "important" helion that is going to "save" you from Proxy Gateway rush's. By the time that Helion gets out, your already going to be dead if you were proxied.
Other than that it looks like it could Work and it would definitely be fun to perfect.
do you ever get more than 1 barracks for pumping rins? Maybe a thought, go Tech lab on the first Rax and Fusion reactor on the factory, after your first helion pops swap the two and pump mad Shield upgraded rinz from the fusion reactor'd barracks, and thor from your Factory with tech (assuming of course you had enough money for the armory and the thor).
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On May 22 2010 09:36 Twe3k wrote: the only thing I will criticize, is the "important" helion that is going to "save" you from Proxy Gateway rush's. By the time that Helion gets out, your already going to be dead if you were proxied.
Other than that it looks like it could Work and it would definitely be fun to perfect.
do you ever get more than 1 barracks for pumping rins? Maybe a thought, go Tech lab on the first Rax and Fusion reactor on the factory, after your first helion pops swap the two and pump mad Shield upgraded rinz from the fusion reactor'd barracks, and thor from your Factory with tech (assuming of course you had enough money for the armory and the thor).
I should of clarified better by saying proxy stargates or proxy darkshrines.
The build has been working great for me Im 8-2 versus Toss at the moment.
If I get my expo going strong I will get two reactor raxes for marine en masse and a starport for some Medivac support and tank drops. Ya im going to start definately thinking about incorparating the marine upgrades since they will be alot more viable with the new patch.
On anohter note is, anybody else having problems with the replays?
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A quick bump to say that now with the new void ray nerf, this build has become even more viable!
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Solid build order, especially since a lot of toss will think you are opening with the more common 1/1/1 build.
my usual response to this build is to take nat and gold once i see you expanding pretty quickly with the tanks as defense, then to pump immo(2robo)/zealot and sentry, and try to deny you from a 3rd the entire game.
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On May 25 2010 03:29 stroggos wrote: Solid build order, especially since a lot of toss will think you are opening with the more common 1/1/1 build.
my usual response to this build is to take nat and gold once i see you expanding pretty quickly with the tanks as defense, then to pump immo(2robo)/zealot and sentry, and try to deny you from a 3rd the entire game.
Sounds like a good response to the build. I think that taking two expands might be too much as by the time your third is getting started il be just moving out. Once my scouting hellion sees the zealot heavy army ill add a few more hellions to my build by switching the rax reactor with a factory. Also the first thing I micro in every single battle is using my tanks and shift ffing every sentry toss has. Stopping guardian shield really helps get my rines back into the fight and helps my rines take on the immortals the toss has. This seems like a great response tho and il have to play ya a few games to test it out.
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I have problems loading both of your replays, it just instantly crashes sc2, dunno if it's the new patch messing with it. Anyways, i'd like to try it out sounds very solid.
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On May 25 2010 04:39 Kanaz wrote: I have problems loading both of your replays, it just instantly crashes sc2, dunno if it's the new patch messing with it. Anyways, i'd like to try it out sounds very solid.
Ya sounds like a patch issue Give it a try man espcially now that voids range got nerfed you can deal with the harass so much easier
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