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On September 02 2010 04:05 BlackHat wrote: I have to ask how you guys deal with auto attacking opponents. I'm not all that good at the game (read mid high elo, lol) so I have only one time in over 200 games laned against someone who last hit. Inevitably they push the creep wave to the tower, and while I've gotten pretty practiced on stealing last hits from the tower they get in a few hits on the tower every time. This leads to the tower slowly dying inches at a time until either I win the lane by killing them and counter pushing hard or I have to b or I die and the tower goes down because the creeps are already on top of it.
I find I have to use some pushing skill like volley or dark matter to try to keep the lane even. Is there some pro strat to punishing them for pushing the lane so hard? Sometime it nets me a kill because they are so far from their tower, but they aren't always that dumb (despite auto attacking minions constantly)
I am talking about mid of course, in a dual lane your buddy invariably whacks on creeps to his hearts content.
You push almost just as hard, but slightly less so that the creepwaves are on your turf but not so close as to be hit by the tower.
For every 100 damage to creeps they deal, you need to deal around 80, or something like that. It means you need to autoattack 2 times for every 3 autoattacks they make.
If you let them build up too much creeps, you wont even be able to harass them anymore because their creeps will finish your creeps fast and then move onto you.
If you only last-hit and they constantly autoattack without receiving harass from you, then despite popular beliefs, they are actually winning the lane until that jungler of yours come and punishes him for doing so.
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On September 02 2010 04:59 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 04:05 BlackHat wrote: I have to ask how you guys deal with auto attacking opponents. I'm not all that good at the game (read mid high elo, lol) so I have only one time in over 200 games laned against someone who last hit. Inevitably they push the creep wave to the tower, and while I've gotten pretty practiced on stealing last hits from the tower they get in a few hits on the tower every time. This leads to the tower slowly dying inches at a time until either I win the lane by killing them and counter pushing hard or I have to b or I die and the tower goes down because the creeps are already on top of it.
I find I have to use some pushing skill like volley or dark matter to try to keep the lane even. Is there some pro strat to punishing them for pushing the lane so hard? Sometime it nets me a kill because they are so far from their tower, but they aren't always that dumb (despite auto attacking minions constantly)
I am talking about mid of course, in a dual lane your buddy invariably whacks on creeps to his hearts content. You push almost just as hard, but slightly less so that the creepwaves are on your turf but not so close as to be hit by the tower. For every 100 damage to creeps they deal, you need to deal around 80, or something like that. It means you need to autoattack 2 times for every 3 autoattacks they make. If you only last-hit and they constantly autoattack without receiving harass from you, then despite popular beliefs, they are actually winning the lane until that jungler of yours come and punishes him for doing so.
Until they are close enough, then you have to use a 1:1 ratio. You also have to make sure you don't autoattack a minion so much that you risk missing the lasthit. Leave it at just enough HP so that you can fit a proper lasthit in.
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On September 02 2010 04:10 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 23:40 myopia wrote:On September 01 2010 15:45 redtooth wrote: laning a utility kat vs Elementz kennen without masteries is no fun (because she's not utility kat...).
Last time I took Kennen up against a Kat, I lost mid. All she had to do was hang back and BB and I felt like I couldn't do anything. How did Elementz run Kennen mid? well i play a semi-gimmicky katarina where i rely on over-the-top movespeed at level 1 to dominate mid. that also leaves me with 400 hp so basically any hero can zone me. i make up for it by just shifting to their side of the lane and taking advantage of the double bushes since they can't reasonably catch up to me. the problem was, i didn't have that extra movespeed or EXP boost since my masteries didn't load. thus i was essentially a 400 hp katarina with nothing really going for her.
But do you mean that a Kat should normally beat a Kennen solo? I need to know whether my failure against her implies that
A: it's a bad matchup B: I just suck C: more Kennen buffs plz D: all of the above
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On September 02 2010 05:13 myopia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 04:10 redtooth wrote:On September 01 2010 23:40 myopia wrote:On September 01 2010 15:45 redtooth wrote: laning a utility kat vs Elementz kennen without masteries is no fun (because she's not utility kat...).
Last time I took Kennen up against a Kat, I lost mid. All she had to do was hang back and BB and I felt like I couldn't do anything. How did Elementz run Kennen mid? well i play a semi-gimmicky katarina where i rely on over-the-top movespeed at level 1 to dominate mid. that also leaves me with 400 hp so basically any hero can zone me. i make up for it by just shifting to their side of the lane and taking advantage of the double bushes since they can't reasonably catch up to me. the problem was, i didn't have that extra movespeed or EXP boost since my masteries didn't load. thus i was essentially a 400 hp katarina with nothing really going for her. But do you mean that a Kat should normally beat a Kennen solo? I need to know whether my failure against her implies that A: it's a bad matchup B: I just suck C: more Kennen buffs plz D: all of the above tank kat (defensive masteries, hp quints, the 800 hp kat) should rape the shit out of kennen.
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On September 02 2010 02:00 ManBearPig wrote: Thinking of buying kat or nid (leaning towards kat). The builds by redtooth listed in OP are not really builds though, more of a discussion.
Soo redtooth (or someone else) how about a kat build? From reading this thread I've gathered you are more or less retired, so it'll be like a cool 'old man parting leaving his wisdom behind' kind of thing. Just a short skill/item order summary is ok if you're too lazy (I don't wanna have to resort to obscure leaguecraft or whatever guides).
Quoted because it was ignored :D
I'm queuing for a game with kat right now, quick skill order anyone?
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QEWQQR -> R > Q > W > E
dshield + hp pot sorc shoes BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD BF SWORD
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Oh i was planning on going for AP kat cause the old redtooth semiguide says it scales the same but the utility of most AP items (notably rylai's) is better for kat?
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AP is harder to play IMO.
EDIT: mostly because you have to buy non-BF Sword items, which in my experience is more difficult than just buying BF Swords.
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mog u forgot red pots. see AD kat is pretty hard to play as well. do i get a bf sword or a red pot... or BOTH?
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Having no void staff can hurt, but unless you are playing a game where most than 2 people realize negatron cloaks are imba, youre okay with AD
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On September 02 2010 05:43 HeavOnEarth wrote: mog u forgot red pots. see AD kat is pretty hard to play as well. do i get a bf sword or a red pot... or BOTH?
wait... why would I buy a red pot when I could save that 300 gold for another BF Sword..?
I am confuse...
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On September 02 2010 05:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 05:43 HeavOnEarth wrote: mog u forgot red pots. see AD kat is pretty hard to play as well. do i get a bf sword or a red pot... or BOTH?
wait... why would I buy a red pot when I could save that 300 gold for another BF Sword..? I am confuse... Because red pot. Duh
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On September 02 2010 04:59 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 04:05 BlackHat wrote: I have to ask how you guys deal with auto attacking opponents. I'm not all that good at the game (read mid high elo, lol) so I have only one time in over 200 games laned against someone who last hit. Inevitably they push the creep wave to the tower, and while I've gotten pretty practiced on stealing last hits from the tower they get in a few hits on the tower every time. This leads to the tower slowly dying inches at a time until either I win the lane by killing them and counter pushing hard or I have to b or I die and the tower goes down because the creeps are already on top of it.
I find I have to use some pushing skill like volley or dark matter to try to keep the lane even. Is there some pro strat to punishing them for pushing the lane so hard? Sometime it nets me a kill because they are so far from their tower, but they aren't always that dumb (despite auto attacking minions constantly)
I am talking about mid of course, in a dual lane your buddy invariably whacks on creeps to his hearts content. You push almost just as hard, but slightly less so that the creepwaves are on your turf but not so close as to be hit by the tower. For every 100 damage to creeps they deal, you need to deal around 80, or something like that. It means you need to autoattack 2 times for every 3 autoattacks they make. If you let them build up too much creeps, you wont even be able to harass them anymore because their creeps will finish your creeps fast and then move onto you. If you only last-hit and they constantly autoattack without receiving harass from you, then despite popular beliefs, they are actually winning the lane until that jungler of yours come and punishes him for doing so.
Thanks, this is kinda what I settled upon doing. Good to know I was headed in the right direction. It can be difficult to keep up with some champs like Sivir, but I've been playing a lot of Viegar lately and once I hit 4 it's usually not a problem anymore (I go q-e-q-w)
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To start playing veigar, how much +AP should I be looking at from my baleful at the 30 minute mark? Does it show on the baleful tooltip or just basically guesswork?
On Nasus it's really easy to see +damage on his siphon strike obviously. I try to shoot for 80-100 +damage on him in a solo lane... I'm trying to figure out what a similar amount would be for Veigar if anyone plays both characters.
Considering he's almost top tier and all above anivia?? :o
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why is his health at one.
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it's all just a joke. I dun really find it that funny, but w/e.
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So that you have to start with a Red Pot or Ruby. Besides you will obviously get 4 in Vet Scars and a full runepage of flat HP. Then you stay behind your allies and leech until you hit 6. I'd suggest the 6 boots build on him, would almost make him imba.
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On September 02 2010 02:00 ManBearPig wrote: Thinking of buying kat or nid (leaning towards kat). The builds by redtooth listed in OP are not really builds though, more of a discussion.
Soo redtooth how about a kat (or nid) build? From reading this thread I've gathered you are more or less retired, so it'll be like a cool 'old man parting leaving his wisdom behind' kind of thing. Just a short skill/item order summary is ok if you're too lazy (I don't wanna have to resort to obscure leaguecraft or whatever guides). missed this the first time. i sorta "unretired" haha. prob won't be doing any tourneys anytime soon but i'll be climbing solo ladders and trolling Caller. i'm bored as hell so i'll write a pretty comprehensive guide for aspiring TL Kat players haha. incomplete for now but i'll finish it later. enjoy~
+ Show Spoiler [standard AP katarina build] +Kobe24's original build 9/21/0 ignite/flash mPen/dodge/scalingAP/health R>Q>E>W doranshield, sorc boots, haunting guise, rylais, GA
- don't know exactly how he did early skills but the way i used to play it was usually QEQWQR. sometimes i got E first if there was gonna be a golem fight (everybody should learn not to pick their first skill until the latest moment possible). other times i pushed up W to level 3 in order to start harassing earlier.
- Kobe tended to finish item pieces before he started the next one. for example, he would finish sorc boots before moving on to haunting guise etc etc. this build gives like 800 hp at level 1 so you can pretty much bully the majority of heroes out of mid. always a solid build and you'll rarely "lose" a lane if you can play it correctly. + Show Spoiler [movespeed AP katarina build] +WRAWRAWRAWRA build 9/0/21 ignite/flash mPen/dodge/CDR/movespeed R>Q>E>W boots+4pots (wait for the fourth), sorc boots, haunting guise, rylais, GA, sunfires/FoN- this is my super aggro katarina build that i made up when skillshotting heroes became popular mids (ashe/ezreal in particular). you get 400+ movespeed at level 1 and become extremely annoying. conventional "zoning" goes right out the window since you move so fast and can simply just go to their side of the lane. if you ever watch me play, sometimes i'll be behind their ranged creeps while they are behind mine. otherwise you try to bait their skills into CD before you jump in and BB. it's definitely a lot harder to play than the previous one since 1 mistake can lead to death but i also get a lot more kills during laning (high risk high reward build). however, this build tends to just auto-lose vs some matchups (tristana is really hard, pantheon is auto-loss, mordekaiser). also, extra movespeed lets you gank a LOT. - pretty much converges with the previous one near mid-lategame but you have some extra movespeed instead of ~200 hp (which doesn't make a difference at that point). i also tend to buy the health-providing pieces of the item build first (giants belt, ruby) which also allows me to build rylais first if i seem to be doing really well (since both haunting and rylais require the book and you already have 1 other piece to each recipe). the reasoning is that i dont really need shunpo scaling at that point in the game. + Show Spoiler [AD katarina build] +Adapted from Solanir's build 9/21/0 ignite/cleanse mPen/dodge/CDR/health R>Q>W>E dorans, merc treads, 3xBTs, 2xSunfires (in whatever order), elixer pump when necessary- Solanir was another good kat that primarily played AD. i personally think AD katarina is stupid as hell for reasons explained here. there are better poke heroes (i learned nidalee to cover that aspect of my game) and katarina dies a LOT (i average 4 deaths a game haha). laning should be almost identical to the standard build. i prioritize W over E since you sorta want the CDR for maximum BB damage as soon as possible. my biggest advice for AD kat is "don't". - though i say it's adapted from solanir's build, it's a very loose "adaptation". he had really odd item builds and also ran EXP quints instead (lol?). sometimes he would get spirit visage, sometimes he would get SotO, sometimes he would get mallet/atmas, etc etc. dunno but it worked for him. also, you need to take cleanse since poking with BB's short range exposes you to a variety of CCs and stuns. + Show Spoiler [general advice and tips] +- you really REALLY need to understand zoning well to excel with kat. moreso than other heroes since you are melee and your only forms of damage have a relatively lengthy CD (compared to standard auto-attacks). know when to pick and choose your battles and play aggressively. keeping up with CS is important but you don't really need too much money. so if you can keep your opponent's CS low by sacrificing your own, then go ahead and do so. often times you'll be able to do both.
- you are the #1 tower diving hero in the game so abuse it. the tower is safe because the zone around the tower is dangerous for any enemy to come within. the problem is that the zone around kat is also dangerous for any enemy to come within. so jump onto the enemy hero, Q, lotus, and jump out after voracity pops. people tend to just stick around since they think the tower gives them extra health or something. towers are not safe around katarina.
- learn the combinations. you gotta be quick with your keyboard fingers and know when to use each combinations (for this example i'll assume D is ignite and F is flash). everybody knows the WEQRD burst combo where you just blow your entire load. also learn how to extend BB range by jumping onto a creep and BBing (WEQ). that is where the majority of your harass will come from since shunpoing directly on top of an enemy is usually not worth it and the other mid isn't dumb enough to stay in range of your BB every time. i usually use the shunpo proc of W in order to reduce creep damage. use a different order to proc heal-reduction when they heal pot (EWQ). after a while you'll have them down to ~250 health but they'll stay out of shunpo range. learn to flash/shunpo and blow your load immediately (WFEDQ). 90% of my FB come before level 6 using that combination. fuxor'd at top river? shunpo to Baron and flash walljump (WEF). hero thinking he's safe at tower? BB and immediately shunpo out of tower range (QWE). need to walljump and have ward? use item hotkeys to put ward down and shunpo to it (2E). winning a teamfight? use imba voracity (WEQRDWEWEWEWE).
- your best skill is not your ult. it is by far your passive, voracity. i don't have time now but i'll finish this later haha.
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What would you guys think about a champion that has an ulti that channels through all of his current manapool (not max mana), about 100-200 mana per second, and then deals the amount of mana he had in magic (true?) damage. Range is global, target is marked from the beginning of the channeling. 50%/75%/100% modifier maybe. Can target turrets, has a small splash range. Huge cooldown.
Imagine some sort of huge ass laser coming straight from above. I'd find that pretty cool, though it would encourage tanking/defending while whittling down the enemy towrrs.
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